Winter Nationals Ladies 100 breast

[Steve]

Was it my imagination, but did anyone else see this?

On the BBC coverage of the Winter Nationals yesterday (Sunday) the Ladies 100m Breastroke, uder water shot of the start, to me it looked like Heidi Earp dived in and started off doing front crawl leg kick before stopping and getting on with her breastroke. Or am I imagining things? Does anyone hve it on video who could go back and have a look and see if I'm barking?

That aside, good to see nearly and hour of continuous coverage on the BBC on Saturday and a sizeable chunk on Sunday as well. Marvellous stuff.

Steve

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http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk (http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/)
the UK swimming site

[BigFish]

You are spot on Steve. The BBC got the caption wrong on the ladies 50 bc (calling it the 100 bc), when I saw Heidi's start I half thought they'd got the wrong event again.

Pity the referee can't see the u/water camera shots; I'm told this happens a lot!

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[Chris]

And there I was thinking I was the only mad one!!

I sat there watching it, paused to consider what I thought I'd seen, and then carried on watching - I put it down to the the previous nights excess!!!

What about Paul Palmer's disqualification in the 200 free? Didn't see any movement on the blocks, but perhaps I missed something.

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Chris (Webmaster)
Beau Sejour Barracudas Swimming Club - Guernsey
http://www.barracudas-sc.org.gg/

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 11 December 2000).]

[Steve]

Glad to see it's not just me - I reckon its just as well she didn't set another BR in that race - could have been controversial!

Brings up a good point about how much swimmers can get away with underwater, where the judges can't see - I mean, does Heidi do that every race or was it a mistake? Did it give her an advantage? I guess we'll never know (unless she is reading this!)

Steve

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http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk (http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/)
the UK swimming site

[This message has been edited by Steve Buckley (edited 11 December 2000).]

[BigFish]

I've seen this a few times both on TV and standing at pool side. I hate to say it, but our coach actually experimented with it (never did it in competition myself, I'm not a brs'er). It *can* be seen from the pool side if you're looking for it.

As for PP's DQ, I'll have another look at the tape tonight but I couldn't see anything.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

This sort of thing goes on all the time at the top level. Many national and international level swimmers use a dolphin or flutter kick during the underwater phase of the breaststroke start (and some at the turns too). I first discovered this when competing against the (at the time) mens 50 breast world record holder. After he destroyed me in the heats on the start I decided I would turn my head underwater to watch his start in the final. To my amazement he dived in and did about 5 dolphin kicks prior to the arm pullout then about 3 more during the pull out. I have been doing it ever since and so have many others, now obviously including Heidi. One time I saw Mark Warnecke shown on TV during a turn at Sheffield perform numerous flutter kicks before the pull out on the way to his world record swim. Judges cannot see from the poolside (unless its the outside lanes), nor do they usually look for it. It can be seen from above pool level and obviously under but not from the deck level where officials stand. I have known one or two British swimmers get disqualified for it but its generally easy to get away with. When disqualified it usually comes from judges behind the lanes not stroke judges at the side. Some argue that it is blatant cheating, others see it as pushing the rules to the limits and being creative in trying to get that tiny edge over your rivals.

[Sean]

Just recently I was swiming 100 Breast in a club Gala in Guernsey and I was disqualified for doing a fly kick off my push off. Obviously our club Judges are better then some of the top Judges in England. Surely if swimmers know that people do this, then the Judges should. Bit slack if you ask me. Maybe after showing it on Grandstand Judges will pick up on it. Look out for a few disqualifications next major meet !!.

[Steve]

Fina Rule SW 7.5 for Breastroke:

SW 7.5 The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward dolphin kick is not permitted. Breaking the surface of the water with the feet is allowed unless followed by a downward dolphin kick.


Seems fairly clear cut to me - I know people argue that some vertical movement of the feet is inevitable due to undulation of the body, but how they could possibly argue that a flutter kick isn't cheating is beyond me. I agree with Sean, that if I tried to do this in a local gala I would be DQ'ed, so what sort of example does this set to young swimmers?

Steve

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http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk (http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/)
the UK swimming site

[This message has been edited by Steve Buckley (edited 12 December 2000).]

[Pete]

How often have you coaches (including myself) prayed when getting a middle lane for a younger swimmer who sometimes dropped one leg on breastroke and got away with it? The only way to solve the problem is a turn judge on each lane. That would be like big brother.
So one swimmer got away with it. There was only one underwater camera. Who is to say the others were not kicking dolphin or free too away from the camera.

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Looking forward to hearing from fellow coaches and keen swimmers needing help.

[Steve]

The issue here isn't young inexperienced swimmers making mistakes, its about deliberate attempts to cheat that get my goat.

So maybe all the swimmers in that race were doing flutter kicks off the start (although the underwater shot showed that Zoe Baker at least wasn't...), does that make it any better? We are talking about probably the second most important domestic championships in britain after the summer nationals, would having a turn judge on each lane really be so bad?

Of course people will always cheat and get away with it, but it strikes me that if it is on such a large scale, as noted above, then the ASA and FINA need to get their act together and decide whetehr this against the rules or not, because at the moment it certainly seems like one rule for the nationals and one for everyone else.

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http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk (http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/)
the UK swimming site

[Chris]

I have to agree with you Steve.

I'm a qualified judge now (and an increasingly active swimmer again!) and I have to admit that I do find it difficult to look harshly at younger swimmers' strokes in club galas.

I don't think that anybody gains anything if you disqualify a young swimmer for a minor stroke infringement (particularly when they may not know better!)

However, when it comes to the older swimmers (and I'm looking at Sean's post about the 100 breaststroke disqualification when I say this!!!) they should (and do) know better. I will look very closely at the strokes of people that have been swimming for a long time - particularly those who try and cheat by doing fly kick in a breaststroke race in the Beau Sejour Barracudas NRG Series!!!

I know of no reason why judges should not be allocated to each lane in a national competition - apart from perhaps a lack of people willing to give up their time for the event. You should not be able to hide in the middle lanes of the pool.

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Chris (Webmaster)
Beau Sejour Barracudas Swimming Club - Guernsey
http://www.barracudas-sc.org.gg/

[Conrad Cawley]

Rules are rules, age 20 or age 10, experienced or inexperienced. Disqualifying young swimmers from day one can be a positive move. The way in which a swimmer is informed that they were disqualified is of more importance. Officials who do not disqualify a swimmer for breaking the rules are almost as bad as officials who scrutinise one particular swimmer. Which, by the way, they are not supposed to do. Part of the skill of swimming is learning how to do Starts, Turns, Strokes and finishes according to the Rules. I have had swimmers disqualified for doing nothing illegal, on other occasions I have seen something (illegal) which was missed by the officials, that’s the luck of the draw.

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Conrad

[Conrad Cawley]

Did you know that under FINA rules, you are not disqualified for leaving the pool as soon as you have finished your race?
In this Country we do not follow FINA rules to the letter, (as most countries do) we have to be seen to be different. We are British after all. Remember the days when Suki Brownsdon could compete legally in any Country in the world, (on Breaststoke) but she would always be disqualified (for submerging her head) in the UK.


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Conrad

[This message has been edited by conrad cawley (edited 14 December 2000).]

[Michael]

I train with a couple of breaststroke swimmers @ Newcastle, I have been assured that some of Britain's Top Swimmers 'CHEAT' openly.

Think of it like this:

If your just out of the dive, moving fast, and there is alot of disturbed water around you, then no-one above the water will be able to see you do a fly, or freestyle kick!!!!!

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[Steve]

from <a href="http://www.newsgate.co.uk/uk/uk.sport.swimming/msg00728.html">uk.sport.swimming:</a>


From the dive you have to correct your orientation as to
face directly up the pool. The judges allow for slight
faults as long as the main stroke is correct and
consistent. Why are you bothered anyway?


Any comments? I for one find it hard to believe that top swimmers can't dive in straight...

Steve

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http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk (http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/)
the UK swimming site

[slipperywhenwet]

Yep I saw that as well!!

I have seen the odd debated fly kick/undulation but never a flutter kick!!

I was amazed.

Does she know what she did or does I wonder?

[outside smoker]

Thought i`d drag this one out the archives - in view of events at the recent GB Grand Prix, which was televised live on TV.

I taped the whole thing and again in the womens 100 Breast there was clear and deliberate under-water fly kicking going on at the start - and not by the same swimmer as was seen at the winter nationals.

I realise there is an argument along the lines of "everyone else is doing it so why cant we" - ie i dont want to put my swimmers at a disadvantage BUT is can we not use the same argument when it comes to drugs? That is - there are others doing it so we should too?

What do you all think? Too idealistic? Not in the real world? REMEMBER steroids, HgH, EPO and all the rest are in this real world!

[BigFish]

As with most laws, if it cannot be enforced it shouldn't be created in the first place. No one will take any notice of a law that isn't enforced (as in the case of the fly kick) and the rule makers are made to look ridiculous.

On the other hand, if it was clamped down on, no one would do it anymore. Drugs *are* clamped down on (debatable, but a different topic) and so that is an entirely separate issue to the fly kick on bs problem.

Now as to the issue of whether video evidence should be used to DQ guilty bs'ers ...

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk