Channel 2009 training advice please

[tobyloc]

Hi all,

Have just joined what looks like a great community and was hoping for any tips and advice for my channel attempt next year. I've always been fascinated by swimming the channel so I'm really looking forward to it. Please note, I'm not currently a very strong swimmer and some may advise starting with Windemere etc. I have however a 2nd place slot booked in August 2009 so can't change it now, not that I want to, whether I've bitten off more than I can chew or not! :)

My history of swimming is slim to none, which is partly why I want to do this, I am 27 and have never swum school or club level, with freestyle being one of my weaker strokes. A few months ago I could barely manage swimming 50m freestyle. I read the Total Immersion book and did a one-on-one day TI workshop around 3 months ago, I've since gotten my freestyle technique to a reasonable level and am just starting to work on my swim speed/fitness. I've mainly been swimming outdoors at Tooting Lido/Serpentine but have just started to come inside. The fastest I can swim is about 17 seconds over 25 metres (about my sprint limit!), the furthest I've swum outdoors is 2km in calm sea. My slow, aerobic swim speed doing that was about 23 mins/km which is about 33 secs over 25 metres. I want to get that down to 16 mins/km or around 1m/s at least.

I went to a masters club recently and found I was veeeery slow and had little stamina for the sprints they were doing, embarassingly so.

So my current plan is:
* Go back to the masters club and do that twice a week
* Swim on my own three times a week ( I have lots of free time). I will do one long, slow swim a week, starting with 3km and building it up and two 10x200m sessions, getting them faster and reducing my rest time.
* Start doing some core and major muscle work outs in the gym 2/3 times a week and probably some jogging twice a week.
* Do a Swimtrek trip to Malta next year to do my 6 hours
* Get back outside and in the sea next year as soon as possible
* Dip into the Serpentine regularly in the meantime.

Phew! I'm sorry that was long and boring, any advice would be wonderful, I worry a little that I'm going to knacker my shoulders or overtrain and get injured. I really am a bit embarrassed as to how slow I am and how much work I need to do.

As a very random final question, I was unusually quick at breaststroke when I was a kid and my friend timed me at the weekend over 25m and I did 16.5s, half a second quicker than my freestyle and I wasn't trying quite as hard, I then did a few laps at about the same slow speed as my freestyle. Is it a completely ridiculous idea to attempt the channel breaststroke? I know hardly anyone does it and have never even considered it until now as it's likely a harder thing to do, it just seems I'm more naturally gifted at it.

Thanks in advance!

[Spidey]

You certainly have joined something special. Apart from getting yourself tested, I would invite Leppy to reply. He finished his solo swim doing Breaststroke.

[2.tso]

sorry to be harsh, you are not gong to make it i also find that your un-respectful approach to swimming England to France is just a shock to my system, hmmm how do i say this to you without being too harsh, well you will start off in dover you will get 1 mile out and you will land in st'mags smashed against the rocks or in Folkestone with the drunkards of the town
sorry but i say it as i see it and you my friend have no hope

[Leprechaun]

Dear Toby,

Part of my simple mind detects a windup here.
I cant think of anyone, so overtly naive in the process of getting across the Channel, that would post like this without doing some research, let alone signing up to a solo in 2009.

We can all have dreams, but lets face it, reality is where we work most of our waking hours.

If I were you, I would cancel the transaction now and go and withdraw a couple of thousand quid in crisp notes, go sit down in a field and set fire to them. Why?

One - it will be about a half of the money you are about to waste.
Two - it take less time than what you will put yourself through.
Three - you will save yourself and your loved ones and friends nine months of hell in watching you fail.

Looking at your post you seem to have surfed various bits of information and put them together. You dont even train, do you? Not seriously.

Even fat boys like me in our mid/late 40's will do 16.5 for 25m breaststroke. Some of them on this site who are 15 years older than me will think thats slow.Some will do two of these 16.5's back to back and break British records.

There is a lot of discussion on a site much more relevant to Channel Swimming and to be honest if you havent found it, then how on earth could you even have signed up?

I'd love to set out in 20 paras how you would go about it. But thats wasting my time. If you're genuine, PM me and I will happily discuss on the phone why I think its crazy.

If I were you I'd ask for my money back or if not possible change my booking to to a relay right now and hope to hell I'd be up to 2 or 3 one hour swims on the day, ideally with a few other swimmers who knew what they were letting themselves into.

Sorry to come across as unsupportive, but dreams get you nowhere when you see the reality of the Channel. Its fecking hard work and let no-one kid you or talk this bollox about dreams.

[2.tso]

i am sure leppy will back me up on this one, welcome to the forum

[Chris]

I love it when we all jump in and offer our support as a community ;)

I think they may have a point though Toby. I'm not sure a Channel Swim is a task to be taken lightly! I've swum competitively for the last 20+ years and you wouldn't get me anywhere near a swim of that magnitude.

Channel swimmers are serious nutters/athletes.

Chris

[Wildswimmer]

Toby,

Open water swimming has very little in common with pool swimming. The sea is cold, it's rough, and you are facing currents, tides and winds. The techniques used by elite pool swimmers simply don't work in open water. You'd be best to train at least in a lake or river, and start now even though it'll mean wearing a wetsuit.

I've been swimming in open water for the better part of forty years, and have even trained to be a winter swimmer - bare-skin in winter-cold rivers and lakes - but I wouldn't even think of attempting a Channel swim. I wouldn't even be able to do a relay.

Leppy successfully completed a solo crossing after initial failure, so take his advice ;)

Edit: Consider trying next year's cross-Mersey swim. 1.5 miles across the Mersey from Liverpool to Birkenhead - and I understand it counts as a qualifying swim for a Channel attempt.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Leprechaun]

I love it when we all jump in and offer our support as a community ;)


Channel swimmers are serious nutters/athletes.

Chris

Its better to be cruel to be kind someone once said, but the offer to chat via a PM'd phone number is there.

Chris - Dover Swimmer will back me up hopefully, but can we stop the serious nutters bit? Whats so nutty about doing a lot of hard training for a goal you want to achieve? I'll take focussed, I'll take dedicated, I'll take driven but dont call me mad.

(I'd let you call me mad in sub 10C water when you find me there, eg in Finland or Tooting for the Cold Water Championships. But me and my mates there would just laugh at you and probably chuck you in.)

Come see what we are like, anyone, just stop by in Dover and talk to people whoa re training and helping.You'll never find a more supportive community than those who are setting out to achieve the goal of the Channel. See what they are up to and then make up your own mind.

As for serious athletes, a lot of serious athletes would be a bit concerned to be lumped in with the likes of me. If you can put the work in, you have a fair chance of getting there. There is a lot less mystery (and madness and so on) once you really see how its done. But there are no short cuts, thats what perhaps separates it from so many other sports.

For what its worth I think 200m flyers and all backstrokers are mad.

[GettingFaster]

I think we might have just met someone with a daughter called Alice...

Welcome to the site, tobyloc, but I suggest you join a club and enter a 1500m race some time soon before you think about doing a channel swim.

[2.tso]

I think we might have just met someone with a daughter called Alice...

Welcome to the site, tobyloc, but I suggest you join a club and enter a 1500m race some time soon before you think about doing a channel swim.

try a 100m race first before the 1500 hahahahah

[Dover Swimmer]

Yeah, the nutters thing is a bugbear of mine! Although I do recognise that nuts/crazy/barking etc etc might just be a product of people not being able to think of a better choice of word!

But yeah...it's not really "mad" to love a sport, train for it, do it and enjoy it.....

As for the OP - why start with the Channel? I don't understand that really. You obviously don't know much about the sport or the "world" of Channel/OW swimming - which is no bad thing per se, but it is a bit strange to jump straight in and do the Channel when you know nothing about it! Why not join the BLDSA, do some shorter swims, see if you like it, get used to it. The Channel's not going anywhere.

And hey 2 tso - nowt wrong with people from Folkestone! ;) (My home town)

[Dover Swimmer]

I suggest you join a club and enter a 1500m race some time soon before you think about doing a channel swim.

I don't. Not necessarily, anyway.

I'm not a member of a pool-based club (I'm a member of the BLDSA and CS&PF if they count, but they're membership organisations really). There's really no correlation between a 1500m pool race and the Channel or any OW race/event, really. There's no need to join a pool club or masters group, unless you want to. I train in a pool (winter only) by myself to pre-written sessions.

Horses for courses, of course, but pool club membership is waaaay down the list of "things to do which will boost your chances of Channel success", IMHO

[2.tso]

oh the nights in the priz, getting mugged down the old cobbled street on the way home, and that main street more closed shops than open!!!! the boat shaped hotel the runtunda

[Dover Swimmer]

Yes yes, that is all there is to Folkestone (!) Don't be silly!

Do you know about the Triennial, the Creative Quarter, the investment in the town?

All towns have their problems, port towns probably more than most. Folkestone has a bright future. It's Priz era is in the past. Certainly people talking trash about it will only discourage visitors, fail to highlight all the great stuff which is going on, and keep it firmly in that past.

[2.tso]

i have not been in town since 2005 i really liked living there, old cheriton road has some nice places, one thing that always got me was those wonderfully big houses on the front atop of the cliff. it could be worse it could have Belfasts reputation hahaha

[Dover Swimmer]

Ah well a lot has already changed and an awful lot more is set to change. If you are interested, google the Folkestone Triennial, Creative Quarter, de Haan's plans for the seafront (the old Rotunda area) and have a read! It's good stuff!

[Dover Swimmer]

Oh and it's not the Priz any more - I'm not sure what it is called now (Club Indigo possibly - I don't live there any more but my sister is still there and still goes sometimes - !)

I wouldn't want you to not be able to find it if you ever want to go back for a night out ;)

[Leprechaun]

I don't. Not necessarily, anyway.

I'm not a member of a pool-based club (I'm a member of the BLDSA and CS&PF if they count, but they're membership organisations really). There's really no correlation between a 1500m pool race and the Channel or any OW race/event, really. There's no need to join a pool club or masters group, unless you want to. I train in a pool (winter only) by myself to pre-written sessions.

Horses for courses, of course, but pool club membership is waaaay down the list of "things to do which will boost your chances of Channel success", IMHO

Despite being a pool-based Club member I agree with this. Over half of my heavy training was outside club hours in eg Aldershot, aided by the trusty Prof as my training partner. I just like the Club spirit and the camaderie, but once you are driving yourself to do the km necessary, the club sessions are the respite not the solution.

[2.tso]

hahah we are hardly heling this poor chap with his crossing here perhaps we should advise a jet pack its a much quicker means of death

[Dover Swimmer]

I think the best advice I'd give the OP is:

spend some time training, with a coach/teacher/club or all, to get faster, stronger and better

join BLDSA and do some shorter OW swims. What if you don't even like OW swimming!

Get down to Dover one Sat or Sun during the season to see what it's all about. (Again...what if you don't even like OW swimming!) Dover isn't the be all and end all of Channel training but it's generally accepted to be the hub of it and is certainly where you'll find the greatest concentration of experience, "big names", camaraderie and advice.

I don't know what else to say other than that. Perhaps the OP could have a think about what he'd expect to hear if he'd posted on www.bigpointymountains.com/forum and said he's booked a sherpa to take him up Everest next year but he hasn't ever climbed a hill before and doesn't have a decent pair of boots. What should he do now? I think the forumites there would be a bit stumped, too!

[tobyloc]

Awesome!

I appreciate the comments and will be unlikely to be trying any more middle-aged speed breastroke.

It's not a joke Leprechaun and I'm sorry you cannot imagine someone as naive as me, I actually am that person, pleased to meet you. I would also rather not PM you to have you tell me over the phone why you think I'm crazy, as you promise, but thank you for the lovely offer. I also apologise to 2.Tso for shocking your system with my unrespectful approach.

I do appreciate realistic advice, but I don't appreciate thinly veiled hostility. I have been brutally honest about my speed and experience and hoped for constructive criticism. If I was told "I really think you have bitten off more than you can chew in a big way, judging by your speed which 10 months before the event should be closer to x and the distance you can go should be y, you should have also had much more experience of swimming in temperatures of z in rough seas etc" might have been more helpful, but I suppose I didn't post my thread on 'makemefeelbetter.com'. So thank you for those who were restrained in their opinion.

Anyway, I'm going swimming tomorrow with renewed enthusiasm to start (yes, start) a training regime now that I'm happy with my stroke. I shall be taking all the useful tips gleaned from the above replies to help increase my chances, thank you Pete and Chris.

If you haven't already replied please don't feel the need to discourage me anymore, I'm old enough to apparently dig my own grave and unless you feel you can top the above, I've already got the message. I honestly wrote my post as light hearted and honest as possible because it's my first time on the board and I suppose I was trying to 'make friends' and because I'm not generally all doom and gloom much, it helps me sleep. I've obviously offended some people with my seeming lack of regard for such an endeavor, I honestly apologize for that, it really wasn't my intention. Of course I take swimming the channel seriously but if i can't get more than a mile in ten months of as much training as is humanly possible then I'm going to be seriously ****** off, if I get smashed against the rocks at St.Mags and die I will be livid.

Cheers,
Toby

[2.tso]

my concerns are onlyfor your own health, pm leppy he will help you if you are serious if you ant to now how to train to do the swim pm me too i will help, speed is only a concern on the first 2 miles and last 2 miles you need to be fast and strong because of the tidal pull.

[Dover Swimmer]

You're welcome!

I thought I was helpful actually but there you go.

As for you should be able to do X distance in Y time - it doesn't really work like that. Plenty of slow people get across, but you have to have the endurance, acclimatisation and - crucially - mental toughness to slog it out. It is a real mental game. Hence my suggestion of getting a bit more experience first.

2.tso's post about getting a mile out might seem dramatic - and it probably is hyperbole. However, there was a guy this year who had trained for one year, wasn't from a swim background. He lasted 90 minutes. (and there were plenty of others who were similar - 4 hours 20 from someone on Saturday jsut off the top of my head - I only mention the 90 minutes guy as he's someone I know who trained with me/us in Dover this year). It happens.

[tobyloc]

Thanks for the tips Dover Swimmer, I'm considering adding a signature like yours but not sure it would get very good feedback with my current stats, particularly breastroke 25m. Thanks for caring and sharing 2.Tso, I will PM leppy later when he's calmed down and less likely to kill me.

P.S. sorry Dover Swimmer, wrote my reply before I'd seen yours
P.P.S. Why did he only last 90mins?

[Dover Swimmer]

Leppy's a good bloke. Have a quick look around this forum and you'll see he's not long back from a Channel relay with a load of n00bs. Does that sound like the sort of person who isn't willing to help newcomers? No.

To be honest with you I'm not sure what response you expected, and your defensiveness is hardly going to help! You've been offered practical ideas, experience, feedback and the telephone number/s of Channel swimmers and coaches.

[GettingFaster]

DS, my reason for suggesting a 1500m swim first is that it's a bit longer than the current 25m swims toby's doing at the moment, and might indicate just what a long way he has to go to achieve his ultimate aim, but it's something he might achieve a bit quicker than getting to frogland without a ferry. I wasn't suggesting that it was a particularly targetted event to help with a channel swim. Obviously you've got a wealth of experience in channel swimming while I'm much closer in ability to the OP and I know that a 1500m event isn't easy if you've never swum that far before.

[Spidey]

You do not have to go back and look at the success of Leppy and other swimmers here. Trust me, read and take on board all you have seen in this thread. Just do not alienate yourself, these are really good people and they are just being honest.

[tobyloc]

I'm sorry I came across defensive, I just had a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the first couple of replies. I really hadn't read your replies DS before thanking others and not you and I will honestly be reading and re-reading everything you guys have said and I WILL be PM'ing leppy. I know I've come across a bit jokey and sarcastic but I mean all of that. I think I've tried a bit too hard to make jokes and I'm really sorry if I've alienated anyone.

Just for the record I've not been training by doing 25m, I'm obviously not saying this to sound impressive because it obviously isn't but I've swum 2km non stop in 16 dC at a lido and swum for an hour in the sea. I know that sounds ridiculously rubbish but I did it to see if I enjoyed it and to see what speed I currently go, I didn't stop becuase I was tired. I love OW swimming in the admittedly small amount of lake, sea and lido swimming that I've done (if lido counts).

Right, I'm going to shut up now!

[Wildswimmer]

To be honest with you I'm not sure what response you expected, and your defensiveness is hardly going to help!

I think any new forum member can make mistakes - I most certainly did in my early days.

Toby - could you tell us where you live? That way we could suggest somewhere to train. I'd be wary about the sea in winter - I've swum in the Channel in January from Littlehampton beach and the sea was powerful enough to toss my 16-stone carcass about like a cork. In fact I wore my safety harness and was tethered to a stout breakwater.

Seriously, buy, beg or borrow a 5mm wetsuit (it takes a long time to fully acclimatise enough to swim outdoors unprotected during winter) and find a suitable stretch of open water in which to train. You need somewhere without strong currents or tides.

Wildswimmer Pete

[2.tso]

toby loc dont just sht up man this is the pace to ask the questions if you dont ask they will never get answered, if you really are keen you could meet up with myself and the lepper for a few jars of the black stuff on saturday.

[tobyloc]

Thanks Pete, I live in London and have been going to the Serpentine and Tooting Bec Lido, I've mainly been going to get used the cold and get my technique a little better. The Serpentine is about 14dC at the moment so I'll be using a wetsuit soon. I've got one of those thin 1mm/3mm ones by Aquaphere. TBL is closing to the public tomorrow and I haven't been sure whether to start properly training indoors or join the swim club at Tooting and use the wetsuit when it's too cold.

2.tso, where do you and leppy live? As mentioned I'm in London, fulham and a couple of jars this saturday would be good.

[Leprechaun]

I'm sorry I came across defensive, I just had a bit of a knee jerk reaction to the first couple of replies. I really hadn't read your replies DS before thanking others and not you and I will honestly be reading and re-reading everything you guys have said and I WILL be PM'ing leppy. I know I've come across a bit jokey and sarcastic but I mean all of that. I think I've tried a bit too hard to make jokes and I'm really sorry if I've alienated anyone.

Just for the record I've not been training by doing 25m, I'm obviously not saying this to sound impressive because it obviously isn't but I've swum 2km non stop in 16 dC at a lido and swum for an hour in the sea. I know that sounds ridiculously rubbish but I did it to see if I enjoyed it and to see what speed I currently go, I didn't stop becuase I was tired. I love OW swimming in the admittedly small amount of lake, sea and lido swimming that I've done (if lido counts).

Right, I'm going to shut up now!

2km in a Lido at 16C is quare-do's as we say in NI. A good start.Ideally do it in 40 mins and let us know how you feel.

Wildie is right - location may help. Solo training in sea is a definite NO for safety sake.

I think its a pity you have joined thi slate in the season - one trip to Dover say June time would give you access to so much experience and from far more experienced people than me. The CS&PF is who D-S and I have gone with and their resources and forum are a great source of information.

What perhaps made me cross about your posting originally is not the disrespect, or even your swimming ability, just that somehow you could have got to sign up, and been advised to sign up, without having had the chance to research the target. Thats all, honest. I thought I had some prior knowledge when I took the leap but boy was I wrong, one hundred times over!

[2.tso]

in all seriousness i live in a swimming pool i have no fixed abode but we will be in maidnehead for a comp plus the 24 swim 4 life chec that outit might be a good staging point for you, right i am off to sleep now

[Wildswimmer]

Thanks Pete, I live in London and have been going to the Serpentine and Tooting Bec Lido, I've mainly been going to get used the cold and get my technique a little better. The Serpentine is about 14dC at the moment so I'll be using a wetsuit soon. I've got one of those thin 1mm/3mm ones by Aquaphere.

As you're not cold-hardened you're going to need a 5mm "steamer" if you intend doing long-distance training through the winter. You could join SLSC and train at Tooting, or join Serps Swimming Club to do the same in the Serpentine.

I'm fully cold-hardened with 10mm subcutaneous fat, yet my personal best is only 30 mins in water at 5*C. That's in just Speedos.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Spidey]

2.tso - see you at Wycombe.

[2.tso]

30 mins in water at 5*C. That's in just Speedos.

Wildswimmer Pete

jesus pete! my personal best is 30 seconds at 25 hahaha

[Leprechaun]

Thanks Pete, I live in London and have been going to the Serpentine and Tooting Bec Lido, I've mainly been going to get used the cold and get my technique a little better. The Serpentine is about 14dC at the moment so I'll be using a wetsuit soon. I've got one of those thin 1mm/3mm ones by Aquaphere. TBL is closing to the public tomorrow and I haven't been sure whether to start properly training indoors or join the swim club at Tooting and use the wetsuit when it's too cold.

2.tso, where do you and leppy live? As mentioned I'm in London, fulham and a couple of jars this saturday would be good.

TSO is being deported to the colonies in the next week. Uk's loss is Sydney's torture one imagines....:)

I'm in Guildford, but a member of Tooting Bec Lido and occasionally swim there, like yesterday when it was 14C, and lets face it fg cold, even that my teeth were hurting during a 1000yd swim. As a full member i can swim there at weekends when it gets cold(er).

You could put a wetsuit on I suppose but there is a view that WETSUITS ARE FOR GIRLS (efitz is lurking, poised to join the chorus). They (wetsuits not girls) can give you horrible chaffing and we dont recommend you try them.

We are at High Wycombe pool on the 24 x 24 swim (as spectators) this weekend. The rest of my movements are as yet indeterminate.

[2.tso]

2.tso - see you at Wycombe.

wycombe??? is that where the 24 is??? spidey i will count lengths for you in a drunken state it will be fun

[Spidey]

jesus pete! my personal best is 30 seconds at 25 hahaha
I think in this case - Pete refers to a personal long. How long he can stay in such a low temperature.

[Juicy Lucy]

2.tso - see you at Wycombe.

See you too, Spidey.

[Spidey]

See you too, Spidey.
Apologies, See you too - I am starting at 7pm - should I get there at 6pm to get the costumes on thier hangers?

Are you swimming? I did not see you on the start list.

[2.tso]

See you too, Spidey.

careful spidey shes a rose with thorns!!!

[Spidey]

We'd better continue this on the 2 swim 4 life thread. May be told off for taking the chat off open water swimming

[tobyloc]

Thanks guys, I need to sleep too.

Cheers leppy, I understand where you're coming from. I have to admit I figure I can do things before I research them properly and I shouldn't have booked the way I did, whether they let me or not. I set off to cycle across america last year on my own and didn't make it all the way, lots of reasons including injury but thinking I can do something without planning for it well enough was probably the overarching reason. I don't want to make that mistake again and hate the honest truth that it's already started a bit like that. I'm not giving up though and really appreciate any advice you all have.

As for the lido swim I did it in 48 mins about a month ago and didn't feel cold, a little numb at the extremities but not so bad, I didn't feel tired at the end I just set out to do about a mile and kept going for a bit longer.

[daveneal]

Tobyloc,

Good on you for having the nuts to give something like this a go.

I started training for open water events this January. I have my sights set on a channel swim in 2012. I intend to build up distance/endurance over the next 4 years to put me in a good position to make an attempt.

It is ambitious but not impossible to train in 10 months. The BLDSA event calendar starts in May. I would suggest joining and planning a schedule of events before you do the channel. www.bldsa.org.uk (http://www.bldsa.org.uk)

Well done for not being scared off by the initial replies to your post and good luck in your training and subsequent attempt.

[tobyloc]

Thanks Daveneal, really appreciate it.

[Dover Swimmer]

I'm going to disagree with Wildie and say that - in my opinion - don't get into a wetsuit so you can swim for longer in cold water over the winter. Swim in the cold water but only do as much as you can. There is plenty of time to build up time and distance from April/May onwards. I think it is far better - mentally, physically, physiologically - to get into the sea (with safety cover of some sort, natch) for, say, 10 minutes in January and be really exhilarated and chuffed with that than to do 30 minutes in a wetsuit on the same day and be pleased but left thinking "but I can't wear my wetsuit in the Channel..."

IMO, leave wetsuits out of your training and acclimatisation altogether. Any swims you do at 6/8*C over the Winter aren't really going to have a massive impact on your Channel swim anyway, apart from as a confidence booster - the Channel is likely to be 16/17*C when you swim.

It if helps, I did

a season in Dover
a winter in the pool and in the gym (with very occasional 5/10 minute non-wetsuit dips in the sea)
another season in Dover (well, half a one, since I swam in July)

[xml]

Nobody addressed your idea of gym work and running, which I was suprised about. With such an endeavour in so short a time, I would've thought that specificity has to be the key. If I were you, I wouldn't do anything but swim, preferably in the cold, and preferably in the sea.#

Alternatively, this could be just up your street: http://www.enduroman.com/archtoarc.html
You can do the channel swim in a wetsuit too, so no need to cold harden...

[carribeanquest]

It if helps, I did

a season in Dover
a winter in the pool and in the gym (with very occasional 5/10 minute non-wetsuit dips in the sea)
another season in Dover (well, half a one, since I swam in July)

O/T but Dover Swimmer was this what you did before your first attempt?

It matches my plans if I shoot for a solo 2010 or 2011...

[Leprechaun]

Nobody addressed your idea of gym work and running, which I was suprised about. With such an endeavour in so short a time, I would've thought that specificity has to be the key. If I were you, I wouldn't do anything but swim, preferably in the cold, and preferably in the sea.#

Alternatively, this could be just up your street: http://www.enduroman.com/archtoarc.html
You can do the channel swim in a wetsuit too, so no need to cold harden...

XML,

With such a daunting challenge, and I will reiterate the "biting off more than chewable" stuff, the list of things to be done, understood, mastered and practised runs to several pages easily. So not covering the issues of gym and running are really due to thinking of the 80%:20% of what would need to be done!

I'm no triathlete, but can you explain why running would help. There was only one person who could have made it on two legs and thats not even 2.0TSO!
Gym work would only be a supplement, we are talking 35000 arm pulls to get there, each arm, minimum. Swim, but swimming hard not plodding is the way to do it.

Toby's challenge is not just "swim the Channel" its "make him into a swimmer too", thats why I am querying his sanity!

There will be a time to go swim in the cold, but its more to do with achieving distances in the sea - which isnt really that cold when it comes to it. 15/16/17 arent cold. Toby wont be able to do the distances required in open water over the winter.Simple as that, not even in a wetsuit.

As D-S says there are no hard and fast rules, nor correlations of pool distance vs chance of success, but I was doing 25km per week and that was probably on the light side of what should have been done. I had done this as a Masters swimmer occasionally so it wasnt that big a jump up to sustaining this weekly for Channel preparation. With Toby we are talking about someone who hasnt trained regularly in a pool to appreciate the workload.

Its not that he CANT....its just that he hasnt, yet.

The common theme of the suggestions here is to go swim a two or three mile sea swim - one or two of the BLDSA or South Coast races - and then come and tell us how he got on and so on. And then he can recalibrate his aspirations.

Along with others, I am not saying "No you cant" just to galvanise his spirit, to be proved wrong and so on. I'm saying it cant be done, in that time, from that starting point. Along with Dover Swimmer, I have seen people, far better swimmers, far better prepared, far more savvy and who still havent achieved the same goal as Toby.

If it comes across as negative, then I apologise. But I worry that setting out a training scheme in detail is merely helping Toby fail ultimately, when the correct stance has to be "please stop and reconsider!"

Oh and you are NOT a Channel Swimmer if you do it in a wetsuit....

[xml]

can you explain why running would help.
I'm saying it wouldn't help. It would get you a bit of cv fitness, but I'm guessing that's not the limiter in a channel swim. There is probably a maximum, above which you can't swim any more in a week without too high a risk of injury, and if that were the case and you had some hours to spare, then running probably wouldn't do any harm.

Oh and you are NOT a Channel Swimmer if you do it in a wetsuit....
Well, you can do the arch2arc in a wetsuit as you're not intending to qualify under any channel swimming federation rules. I do find it a bit elitist though. Why not have both wetsuit and non-wetsuit events? After all, buoyancy aided, swimsuits are now allowed in swimming (LZR et. al.). Some people would prefer to wear a wetsuit than put on 10 kilos.

[Dover Swimmer]

O/T but Dover Swimmer was this what you did before your first attempt?

It matches my plans if I shoot for a solo 2010 or 2011...

Yes (and I was a swimmer before that I should add - I swam in various local clubs and squads from about age 6 I think although I stress I was never fast, always in the bottom lanes!)

[Dover Swimmer]

xml, there are both wetsuit and non-wetsuit categories. Just as the CS&PF will take people across the channel on lilos, rowing, in giant zorb-balls if they so desire. All successes will be "channel crossings" but only non-wetsuit swims will be "channel swims". There is nothing to stop anyone doing it in a wetsuit, but you won't be a "Channel swimmer" as Leppy and I and others are. And, quite frankly, having endured the training and the swims, that suits me just fine. If it makes me sound elitist, so be it. I know I'm not.

Re running and gym, when training for a long OW swim I don't run/bike or do cardio gym work. Partly because there's no time left in the week, partly because it takes me a fair effort to put on a bit of body fat and I don't want to burn it off. Before I was a member of a gym, I'd do 10 minutes or so of VERY light weights on rotator cuff and shoulders every other day. This was just to stress and strengthen the small muscles in the shoulder. Now I belong to a gym and, during the season, this is what I (try to!) do:

Mon: yoga in the morning, weights in the evening (unless it's late in the season and I am too knackered)
Tues: morning lake swim
Weds: weights in the evening followed by Pilates
Thurs: morning lake swim, yoga in the evening
Friday: off
Saturday: dover sea swim
Sunday: dover sea swim

Lake swims increase with temperature but normally about 90 minutes, not just a solid plod of a swim but always timed reps with little rest (reps being 400 or 750m)

[xml]

All successes will be "channel crossings" but only non-wetsuit swims will be "channel swims". There is nothing to stop anyone doing it in a wetsuit, but you won't be a "Channel swimmer"
Does that make people who swim in performance enhancing swimsuits, "pool crossers" instead of "swimmers" too :) What say you stevie_k?

[Leprechaun]

Does that make people who swim in performance enhancing swimsuits, "pool crossers" instead of "swimmers" too :) What say you stevie_k?

Good question!

I think we dont need to wait for Stevie_k to respond...completely against the spirit of the sport. Same goes for wetsuits in Open Water...

[2.tso]

toby will be meeting me this saturday, in reality he will not be swimmingt this in 2009 i have made him aware of the risks as have many, he is however very dedecated but lacks the "swimming education" that most channels swimmers have being it swam from 6 yrs old till 15 then stopped for 15 years they still have the background, he aims to increase his background very very fast i will be pushing him in the direction that ds has mentioned get into as many ow swims next season and perhaps a realy you dont wanna blow 4k on a swim that lasts an hour due to being ill every 5 min in the sea.

he will be pushed to join aclub do nothing for his prep other than just swim no running etc just swimming!

my advice for him is to be in the water 10 times per week!
again i will discuss all this with him on saturday which for me will be a wonderful day miss fifilamarche says when seh sees me she will be jumping and swininging her arms about!!! (see my profile it make sence)

[tobyloc]

Thanks 2.tso, look forward to saturday and if it really ends up becoming necessary I will cancel the booking and go for 2010 instead, making it across is more important to me than doing it in 2009. Thanks for all the advice everyone :)

[FiFi LaMarché]

again i will discuss all this with him on saturday which for me will be a wonderful day miss fifilamarche says when seh sees me she will be jumping and swininging her arms about!!! (see my profile it make sence)

2.tso - you make me sound like a monkey!

xml - good point on the wetsuits/performance enhancing suits. As a card-carrying suit-afficionado, I shall henceforth refer to myself as a "breastcrosser".

The mind boggles.

[2.tso]

toby leave it as it is for nwo i have an idea which will be good for you perhaps be the host of a realy costs split, you can train with some of the best channel swimmers around i can think of 1 certain person already who would go in a heartbeat and possibly e-feckin-fits if you push his buttons this way you would gain the education and not loose out on the money you may have already splashed as a deposit! again we will discuss on saturday

[2.tso]

also folks check out tobys pics on his web page! ace!!!

[tobyloc]

www.tobylockerbie.com

Happy to help out when I can if people need publicity photos for charity swims in the future, though that's probably everyone! :)

[carribeanquest]

What are you doing this weekend Toby?

ETA: D'oh, just realised.

[tobyloc]

Am meeting up with 2.tso on saturday to have a chat but unfortunately am busy saturday evening and sunday, otherwise would have enjoyed going to see the 24x24.

And thanks Dover Swimmer for all the info.

[Dover Swimmer]

No probs!