ASA Open Water Programme - thoughts?

[Leprechaun]

Posted today on ASA website, makes interesting reading and I wondered what our collection of coaches on these fora make of it? Will you be urging your 800/1500 stars to think of giving it a go? There are a fair number of youngsters turning up in the usual pier to pier swims, presumably tempted by the cash prizes and usually superb old trophies too, but are they encouraged by their pool coaches? Would appreciate your thoughts, text reproduced here:

"Britain’s medal-winning performances and dominance of the marathon swimming events at the Beijing Games has kick-started a wave of interest in the newest sport to be included in the Olympic programme.

The subsequent enthusiasm and support shown towards open water, from those within swimming as well as the public at large, is something British Swimming Open Water Performance Manager Mark Perry believes will be a major factor in its continued success.

The British trio of David Davies, Keri-Anne Payne and Cassie Patten took three of the six available medals from 10km events in Beijing and in doing so highlighted the vital work of a team of people that has put Britain at the very forefront of open water swimming.

As good as the summer of 2008 was for the open water programme, Perry knows it will take an even greater effort to retain Britain’s formidable reputation while looking to build on those results.

“We’ve come a long way in a relatively short time and achieved some wonderful results,” said Perry. “This is a testament to all who’ve been involved in the open water programme and journey to Beijing but in reality this is just the start - there’s still so much more to be done and work towards.

“The success we saw in Beijing has drawn a great deal of attention to open water swimming from many coaches, athletes, the media and the public as a whole. It’s created a very positive attitude towards the discipline and sets us up perfectly in terms of preparations for London 2012.

“Britain has done a great job in terms of open water swimming but the rest of the world will undoubtedly catch up. We’ve got a lot of momentum currently and that can only help to grow the sport in this country.”

The recognition and interest open water swimming currently enjoys is in stark contrast to a time before the Olympics where it was relatively unknown and therefore unappreciated.

Times have definitely changed and this provides the momentum for an exciting future for Perry and the programme that became part of the British Swimming World Class Programme when the 10km event was adopted as an Olympic event.

Perry was appointed as the performance manager for open water in July last year but prior to that worked for British Swimming as a consultant charged with transforming a non-Olympic event programme into something that by the summer of 2008 would be competitive on the Olympic stage.

“I identified changes that needed to be made,” said Perry. “I saw the competition, other strong nations and got very excited about it and what marathon swimming had to offer.

“When I first got involved and took on the sport it was in need of modernisation. We knew we had really good swimmers out there with lots of young talent coming through the ranks. The first thing we did was to try to recruit these top swimmers and brought on board David Davies, Keri-Anne Payne and Cassie Patten immediately.

“We want to make the most of the new-found interest now and extend this even further, encourage more athletes to explore the possibility of marathon swimming and to provide them with the right opportunities at the right time.”

Perry prefers to look at things in terms of distance swimming and not just open water. The programme looks at who is swimming the 1500m and 800m Freestyle and what they would be like at 10km.

The programme’s philosophy is that every distance swimmer in Britain has the opportunity to swim an appropriate open water event and is something Perry is working closely with the home nations to achieve.

“A large part of the focus of the programme is to work from the grass roots up,” explained Perry. “It involves meeting the different regions throughout Britain and liaising with those working with young talent, not only coaches but those working in the background. All involved in swimming need to drive this initiative forward.

“Before Beijing and the fantastic British performances, when I was on the pool deck at major meets I used to get asked about boats and binoculars. Now the coaches are asking me how they and their swimmers can get involved. The shift in attitude towards the sport has been a massive one.

“There’s a lot of interest now from swimmers and coaches alike and the challenge we face now is facilitating that throughout 2009.”

Part of the development of the sport in Britain is to work with those responsible for last year’s highly successful great North Swim at Lake Windermere and see how a combined approach can increase further the opportunities provided.

Open water will also have a heavy presence at the ASA Age and Youth Championships as what happens in the pool with young athletes has a direct relationship with the direction of the sport of open water swimming.

It’s not an element of the sport that stands on it’s own anymore, it’s part of the overall swimming World Class Programme.

“It used to be seen as a separate entity, sometimes a completely different sport but I want to change all of that,” said Perry. “It’s an integral part of the World Class programme and there’s no bigger testament to this than the results from 2008.

“All medallists came from a impressive pool background and together with our knowledge, experience and commitment to open water swimming it’s transition into the world class programme has been seamless.

“The priority of the work we do is in looking after the athletes and making sure they have all the resources they need. It’s also about working very closely with their coaches. This has created a great rapport which provides a very close-knit team when we compete.”

The aim isn’t to create specialists in open water swimming but rather to keep swimmers excelling in both open water and pool-based competitions.

Athletes are encouraged to keep variety at the core of their development in terms of strokes and distances and this will include open water as well.

Perry is currently working closely with Development Coach Chris Martin to identify open water opportunities but the priority won’t immediately be results based, it will be about getting the right experience and leading towards winning medals at the Olympics.

“This year we’ll be taking our athletes and giving them experience and exposure at international level. We’ll be highlighting talent and working with them to develop themselves,” said Perry.

“The event in Britain has come a long way in a short space of time but our strategy going forward will focus on developing technique and gaining experience..

“Leading into 2008 the girls were fairly experienced. They had a good track record and experiences of international events. They didn’t always go to events to win, it was about swimming the race, gaining more experience and creating a better understanding of the event.

“Ahead of the Beijing Olympics David Davies had very little experience and therefore his plan was to stay out in front and out of trouble. There wasn’t a British directive to go out in both races from the front, it fell down to the athletes and how the race developed.”

Perry believes results in Beijing were even more impressive when you appreciate, unlike many of the competing nations, Britain has only a small window every year, due to climate, in which to compete in open water in this country.

In reality Britain only has three months - June to August - where athletes can swim as the water temperature needs to be a minimum 15 Celsius.

Because of the limited time in Britain athletes will be offered appropriate opportunities in warmer climates for our younger athletes who show a real interest in open water swimming.

“Our aim is to be a world leader in terms of open water racing. More races and events will go towards building experience and knowledge. It’s about being able to react to certain situations and the best way of managing this is through experience,” said Perry.

“2012 is our next big event but we have World Championships in open water every year. Other than that it’s a learning curve we’ll go through to be up there at the very top in time for London.

“We need to develop our race plans and this will require more events and opportunities on the calendar. The race plan is a massive element of open water swimming. It’s all important.”

.....

“Training for the open water and the pool-based events should be the same,” explained Perry. “We’ve been very successful with our swimmers following pool-focused training regimes. The only additional training requirement they’ve undergone is in the tactics of the race and this is something that comes from exposure to competition.”

[richard-broer]

The article could literally be transponed to my local situation. The open water swimming in The Netherlands is of course stimulated by the activities of first Edith van Dijk and now also Maarten van der Weijden. He is a major celebrity and tries to forward his cause for the Dutch Cancer fund as much as possible. He has proven his point. Edith has proven a point in that the carrier as a swimmer is not neccissarily over after giving birth.

The Dutch programme is also based on swimming pool swimmers (the "aquarium swimmers" for the likes of folks like me - OK, I used to be one too but always swam open water aswell since I was 14). And it works too! But open water requires a lot of adaptive skills that an aquarium swimmer normally lacks. We have quite a few that aspire the Olympic Marathon but dread to swim in open water.

In the article is staded that the UK has come a long way. But that would be untrue. The UK has a strong and long tradition in open water starting before Mathew Webb (as do we Dutch, the country with the canals and winning the fights with water all our history).

What is it then? A fear of cold? No lines on the bottom to follow? A fear of swallowing a bit of natural water? A bit off waves? Currents? Fear of getting touched by an opponant? Or have pool swimmers only learned to swim fast, but have no race tactics? Of course they do, but they do not know how to adapt to the changing elements, conditions and tactics of the competiton. And since when do we feed in the swimming pool?

It is all about changing conditions and playing your opponants. The most effective open water swimmer is the one that knows to play the elements and opponants most sucesfully.

The Bejing venue was a rowing lake with aquarium like temparatures and weeds, and still very sterile, just a very large swimming pool under the sun. No waves, no currents, no wind, no jellyfish!

I hope the London Marathon swim in 2012 could be more of what we continentals (and perhaps many Brits?) would imagine to be open water! Something like in and outside the Dover Harbour?

Let the real open water swimmer plays the elements and the opponants in real OPEN water!

[Brick]

I hope the London Marathon swim in 2012 could be more of what we continentals (and perhaps many Brits?) would imagine to be open water! Something like in and outside the Dover Harbour?

Let the real open water swimmer plays the elements and the opponants in real OPEN water!

I thought that the venue for the 2012 open water swim had already been decided and it was to be the Serpentine.

As for the attitudes to open water swimming, when we were having our new years day swim, someone took a photo and said that he was going to send it to the local newspaper. Then we were told his reason for doing so, and we were told that it was because it was "against the law" to swim in the lake, and he was dobbing us in.....

[Leprechaun]

I thought that the venue for the 2012 open water swim had already been decided and it was to be the Serpentine.

As for the attitudes to open water swimming, when we were having our new years day swim, someone took a photo and said that he was going to send it to the local newspaper. Then we were told his reason for doing so, and we were told that it was because it was "against the law" to swim in the lake, and he was dobbing us in.....

First of all, I should point out to those who dont know him that Richard is co-owner (Co-author??) of an excellent Open Water site:

http://openwaterswimming.eu/

Its worth tagging amongst your favorite sites and has a lot of very useful information.

Yes - its the Serpentine for 2012 Richard. The venue is excellent in terms of spectator access, far more so than Beijing. However your suggestion of using Dover in some way does appeal to those who think Open Water needs to be in a marine environment with the excitement of waves and currents and marine life. Dover Harbour might work but we have to remember the complex logistics of arranging anything on this scale in such a busy port.

A 10k race based on the Solent would work though!

Brick - for this thread I was looking for attititudes of the coaches to the transition from distance, pool-based racing to Open Water. By Open Water I mean OW racing, from 1k up to 10k swims, not leisure, outdoor swims in lakes and, indeed, the sea.

The dopey attitude of the photographer is just a sign the current debate still rages but probably isnt relevant to this thread and I dont want to get into the previous debate about what is and isnt OW swimming or Wild Swimming.

[Toe in Water]

Earlier in the week my daughter attended a training session/camp where David Davies was guest.

Judging from the way she has been talking about it, he was pretty inspirational, and spoke in some detail about training and the Olympic race itself as well as demonstrating the water retention properties of the swimsuit.

Nice one.

Encouraging participation in open water swimming will be easier if younger swimmers are aware and inspired.

Though to counter this I assume my daughter is not the only one who can barely swim in the sea and does not enjoy it at all. But then she can't do the head-up breaststroke! And curiously, and unlike her older brother, she struggles to complete a length of the Tooting Lido as she starts freezing up as soon as she gets to the half way point.

[Leprechaun]

Earlier in the week my daughter attended a training session/camp where David Davies was guest.

Judging from the way she has been talking about it, he was pretty inspirational, and spoke in some detail about training and the Olympic race itself as well as demonstrating the water retention properties of the swimsuit.

Nice one.

Encouraging participation in open water swimming will be easier if younger swimmers are aware and inspired.

Though to counter this I assume my daughter is not the only one who can barely swim in the sea and does not enjoy it at all. But then she can't do the head-up breaststroke! And curiously, and unlike her older brother, she struggles to complete a length of the Tooting Lido as she starts freezing up as soon as she gets to the half way point.

Davies was such a newcomer to OW that I think he surprised himself how much he enjoyed it and how well he did.

Toe-i-W, forget this compulsory head up breaststroke nonsense, its only relevant for utterly stupid temperatures (6C and less) if you are going to be in for any length of time (like 5 mins or more!). Kids will not have the body mass to cope with such temperatures and in any case they will be eminently sensible and just wont get in!

In temperatures from 10-15C freestyle as per your normal stroke in the pool is perfectly fine. Swimming breaststroke in the sea always leaves you likely to get a wave in the mouth. In colder water your face will feel like its burning when you do freestyle - the effect will ease after about ten minutes so just keep going, swim fast tempo.

Depends on what time of year, and in fact time of day and weather , when you swim in Tooting. I will probably go tomorrow but the idea of swimming a length is a bit far fetched. As its unheated, even in a June evening it isnt much more than 16-18C and your daughter would understandably feel cold. As Wildy will point out, regular acclimatisation short swims building up to longer ones is the way to go. Are you all-year-round members?

[Brick]

Toe-i-W, forget this compulsory head up breaststroke nonsense, its only relevant for utterly stupid temperatures (6C and less) if you are going to be in for any length of time (like 5 mins or more!). Kids will not have the body mass to cope with such temperatures and in any case they will be eminently sensible and just wont get in!

For those of us inland, "utterly stupid temperatures such as 6C or less" are the norm during winter. If our lake had been 6C on NYD, I would have been laughing.

[Leprechaun]

For those of us inland, "utterly stupid temperatures such as 6C or less" are the norm during winter. If our lake had been 6C on NYD, I would have been laughing.

Yes, completely understood and we salute those who get in these temperatures for fun or whatever fetish drives them to do it.

As I keep trying to explain the ASA see OW as racing not the leisure participation you, me,Wildy etc regularly and enthusiastically do.

OW racing does not take part in these "utterly stupid temperatures", go look at the BLDSA website and see what times of the year the events are. Beijing OW was mid 20'sC so cold is NOT usually an issue.what do you think the Serpentine will be in june 2012? Please dont put off potential OW swimmers coaches and parents by suggesting OW is cold water swimming!

Whatever it is you do Brick, its not the OW as the ASA are getting excited about.Doesnt make you or it right or wrong, just two perspectives.And its the ASA one I'm asking for views on here.

[Leprechaun]

Winter swimming is a completely separate discipline and bears no resemblance to "sensible" OW swimming - other than usually taking place in open water. It also requires/causes physiological adaptation which again is not necessary for warm-water OW swimming. The transition from "chilly" to "hardcore" seems to be generally held to be 10*C.

Although some do race in very cold water, I've seen <i>avantointi</i> (Finnish ice-swimming) websites advise against any form of strenuous swimming in freezing water.

Seriously, winter swimming and OW swimming aren't the same thing, although I wouldn't describe hardcore winter swimming to be a "leisure activity". It's an extreme sport that takes a lot out participants in quite a short time.

Edit: However given the time of year most contributions to the OW forum are going to be from winter swimmers, as we are the only OW swimmers active at the moment. It's RoSPA who disseminate the lie that "UK waters never heat up". If the ASA want to do something about it, well, they are members of RoSPA's puppet the National Water Safety Forum.

I would like to see the ASA keep its collective nose out of wild swimming though. We have our own representative organisation.

Wildswimmer Pete

Oh for goodness sake put a sock in it Pete. Its a question about the ASA and its open water initiative.

As I keep trying to point out the ASA OW is racing not splashing around in various swimming holes and bits of the sea at near zero or more normal temperatures. The ASA probably doesnt give a flying flipturn what you do so please refrain from trying to find someone else to oppress you.

You have a totally legitimate set of views on your line of sport. But so does the rest of humanity so please respect the theme of this thread and NAFF OFF to one of your own.And go READ the ASA website OW before you reply.

thanks, and I apologise for the tone of this post to all. I passionately support all forms of swimming and encourage all to try as many as they can.

[GettingFaster]

Can you two please pick up your toys, put them back in your prams and get your nannies to park said prams on opposite sides of the park.

Aye thangyew.

[Leprechaun]

Oooooooooooh - hit a bit of a raw nerve have I? I actually tried to support your view. Don't be so bloody rude and aggressive.


Support? I'd worry a bit when you decide to oppose. On re-reading your post its all your usual anti-ROSPA, "ASA are their subordinates" nonsense. It was a question for coaches in the context of the ASA's recently announced OW initiative and you should make your response bearing in mind the likelihood of newcomers and potential OW swimmers on this site.



Actually you are completely, absolutely and totally wrong. The ASA are no friends of wild swimming and, given the fact that I'm party to (confidential) information you aren't, I can assure you they want wild swimming stamped out. The only OW swimming they approve of is your kind: supervised, regulated, regimented. So I will continue to criticize them until they get off our backs.

What's this got to do with the ASA's OW initiative? If you are going to come out with all this stuff each time someone mentions ASA and OW in the same sentence I would suggest you may not be best placed to moderate this particular forum?

As I said, go read the ASA website. I have the "Wild Swimming" book by Kate Rew and look forward to trying many of the swims. I regard the entire spectrum of swimming, indoor and outdoor, as worthwhile.


Except that you don't think I have any right to post them.

Far from it - post as much as you like, but please think of the newcomers with a less jaundiced outlook on life and whether your utterings help the cause of swimming in general or just represent a very polarised view on life.



I don't give a monkey's about the ASA and have some more important things to do rather than waste time and bandwidth looking at their website.

You have plenty of bandwidth now you are on broadband, the OW part of the ASA website doesnt take up much bandwidth. However I think your technical difficulty with reading the content seems to be a great big pair of 1950's blinkers.


OK if you want it that way, here's the deal: keep to your own threads and don't comment on mine and I'll return the courtesy. Meanwhile if I were you I'd have someone hire a cherrypicker to pluck you off that very high horse.
Wildswimmer Pete

There is a case for separating OW into representative categories, Chris, and may I suggest:

Open Water Swimming
Wild & Outdoor Swimming

GF - sorry! You are right, but sadly a national stereotype prevents me from letting injustice sit staring me in the face.

[Toe in Water]

The head up breaststroke is the sad mum who was never good enough at front crawl to attempt it in the sea and so eventually forgot. So I just swim up and down the Lido slowly, trying to dodge the triathletes. You wont see me there much beyond October and certainly not before April. I got the kids passes as well this year, but the family swimmer really could not swim because of the cold, even in midsummer.

Wasnt it Adlington who admitted that she did not like swimming in the sea. When I was young you swam in the sea because you were on holiday and that was that. But no longer. So attracting younger swimmers to open water may be difficult. But Davies and the drama of his swim certainly impressed.

I suppose the point I was trying to make there was that it is not just the ASA talking to coaches which will make a difference, but also older swimmers talking to younger ones.

[Tewson Veste]

It does seem that some posters on this site do like to push their personal opinions at every opportunity. It seems to go beyound normal discussion, and tends to get personal at times.
Once I have read the same point made for the 3 rd or 4th time I tend to lose interest. Although I am happy to post my point of view I try not to repeat the view in the same thread or differant threads, although I may have done so on at least one occasion.

I also try not to kidnap threads based on a subject by changing the topic under discussion. I am sure that people with very strong views find it difficult not to get involved with opposite views held by others BUT please guys think about what you are posting ! Does it fit the thread in question ? If you you have particular views please make them once or twice and then agree to disagree.

Sorry if I am getting involved in a thread I have no specific interest in. I do however read all threads for personal interest. I find the Open Water threads generally interesting as it is an area of swimming I have never been involved in. If I ever get fit enough I may try it in the future. Thats unless this thread bores me to tears in the mean time.

[Toe in Water]

I really enjoy this forum because it involves people who are passionate about things.

For me swimming is simply my preferred form of exercise. I dont like running and I prefer swimming in the Lido to the leisure centre, simply because the former is relaxing and the latter not. (Running the gamut of drug dealers in the alley leading to the Brixton Rec is not my idea of fun, and the changing room feels like a giant petrie dish breeding all sorts of bugs.) I found this Forum after having encouraged my kids to learn to swim and then finding the need, as a parent, to understand what we had let ourselves in for, as our daughter enterd the world of PBs, Counties, BAGCATS and the like.

I am hooked. I really respect what Broomhill Saved is doing. (I campaigned once to save my local park and so what a long term and un-thanked task she has taken on. ) I am a fan of JL, Bully, Apostle, Gina, Animal, Getting Faster and Miss T Goggles. I really admire Wildswimmer's passion and learned a lot about something I knew nothing about, though am not tempted to join him. And Leprechaun has a lot of interesting thngs to say.

So please....for me and the lurkers.

Actually I suspect that as oper water swimming becomes a competitive sport there will be increasing pressure to tame it. Hence Bejing, and the Serpentine. This wont be just the ASA but the fact that the competitve swimming apparatus in most countries will be concentrated around pool swimming (I like "aquarium swimming") and so this apparatus will try to extend to bring in the 10K.

If wildswimmers and openwater swimmers have firm ideas about what they want as a Olympic event they will be in a better position to push. As Leprechaun suggests, open water is outside the comfort zone of many coaches and presumably many swimmers. But if active participants dont have a concensus, or are happier doing what they do and aren't really interested in this type of competition, I guess the open water event just becomes a sort of marathon event which 1,500m swimmers move up to. And if so the pressure will be there to keep conditions reasonably predictable.

[Leprechaun]

The head up breaststroke is the sad mum who was never good enough at front crawl to attempt it in the sea and so eventually forgot. So I just swim up and down the Lido slowly, trying to dodge the triathletes. You wont see me there much beyond October and certainly not before April. I got the kids passes as well this year, but the family swimmer really could not swim because of the cold, even in midsummer.

Wasnt it Adlington who admitted that she did not like swimming in the sea. When I was young you swam in the sea because you were on holiday and that was that. But no longer. So attracting younger swimmers to open water may be difficult. But Davies and the drama of his swim certainly impressed.

I suppose the point I was trying to make there was that it is not just the ASA talking to coaches which will make a difference, but also older swimmers talking to younger ones.

I think the "Adlington view" sums up the challenge to generating interest in OW and in particular Sea OW and Marathon Swimming. Based entirely on the unknown, but when you see the conditions for the Beijing OW races you see its not a coping with conditions challenge, but a genuine, tactical marathon (Ok a short marathon then!) in the water. To meet this new challenge,the ASA would now seem to be trying to access the best distance swimmers with a view to doing OW rather than trying to make the best use of those who fall by the wayside.

Way back in the 70's I remember a fellow swimmer telling me he never swam in the sea as it would affect his muscles for racing. He wasnt the brightest penny and in any case in NI you'd have had to thrown into the sea. But I suspect the prejudice, based mainly ignorance, has persisted. Until recently it seemed only Masters swimmers made the transition but there's a welcome addition of younger swimmers to the regular OW swims. And they arent the "awkward fat kids" (cf Football etc), their times for some of the races are quite scary.

It all comes down to people just getting involved and having a go.Some will like it, some will have a bad experience - kicked, mouthfuls of water, cold and hate it. But the only point I have ever tried to make is that its a lot easier than many might think, its only the extremes of cold and distance that may initially be off-limits for the newcomers.

[Leprechaun]

So if its grow-up and clear the air time, let me leave it with the following points:

1. First and foremost I encourage people to do OW swimming safely. This means learn to swim properly, learning to know their own limitations and how to recognise incipient problems, for them and their swimming colleagues.

2. I am not an ASA nor H&S Officer. I recognise their shortcomings but I also recognise the practicalities, and why rules are put I place, as a would-be event organiser.

3. Swimming in Cold Water does not HAVE to be dangerous nor even unpleasant. However it most certainly can be if done stupidly. I would never encourage people to give it a try without either adequate training nor supervision. At best, without proper preparation, you will put people off for life, at worst the consequences are too awful to contemplate.

4. I have encouraged a number of pool swimmers into the sea, not just at the benign warmest times, but from April to November. Those who have swum with me and others will know we have a healthy and pragmatic approach to safety planning and would be horrified to be described as H&S "zealots".

5. I dont have any personal campaigns, only a wish to see more people take up and enjoy our sport, safely and successfully, however this is defined. I have to admit I dont really see the ASA having a battle with Wildswimming but I am happy to confess ignorance. But I think some of us have to come to grips with the reality that OW doesnt equate to Wildswimming. Not a case of agreeing to disagree, but simply agreeing there are several forms of OW, each legitimate.

6 Lastly - as we dont have to take life too seriously - we budgie-clad followers of Captain Webb mock the life out of wetties. Same goes for anything thats not Capn Webb gear. I would have hoped that the tongue-in-cheek nature of these posts was evident to all, but if its not then we will have to add smileys where appropriate.

[Brick]

As for the mixing of topics on this thread, I do believe that it was counter-productive of Leppie to describe temperatures under 6C as "lunatic". If you wanted to keep the topic strictly on topic, you would have been better off simply mentioning that competitive open water swimming does not occur at these tempertures.

If I had a thread about swimming in lakes and rivers, and I mentioned the "lunatics" that swim in the sea, it would be entirely my fault if sea swimmers then "invaded" my thread to defend their pasttime.

[NotVeryFast]

If I had a thread about swimming in lakes and rivers, and I mentioned the "lunatics" that swim in the sea, it would be entirely my fault if sea swimmers then "invaded" my thread to defend their pasttime.
Sorry Brick, I normally find myself in agreement with your posts but I can't agree with this one. I often read things in posts that I disagree with, but refrain from posting because I don't want to drag the thread away from its topic. People just have to bite their tongue and let it go. If we all posted in every thread every time we see some small bit we disagree with, we'd have an incoherent mess of posts like on USMS.

Leppy, I think you are unlikely to get the input you are looking for from coaches on this forum, as they generally seem to no longer be contributing to the forum in that manner. For what it's worth, my view is that open water will provide another opportunity for swimmers who can't quite make it as 1500 swimmers, particularly if they tend to get better with distance, as is the case with David Davies who has never been competitive as a 400 swimmer at world level. This will be even more true for women who only have 800 as the longest Olympic pool event.

[Leprechaun]

Sorry Brick, I normally find myself in agreement with your posts but I can't agree with this one. I often read things in posts that I disagree with, but refrain from posting because I don't want to drag the thread away from its topic. People just have to bite their tongue and let it go. If we all posted in every thread every time we see some small bit we disagree with, we'd have an incoherent mess of posts like on USMS.

Leppy, I think you are unlikely to get the input you are looking for from coaches on this forum, as they generally seem to no longer be contributing to the forum in that manner. For what it's worth, my view is that open water will provide another opportunity for swimmers who can't quite make it as 1500 swimmers, particularly if they tend to get better with distance, as is the case with David Davies who has never been competitive as a 400 swimmer at world level. This will be even more true for women who only have 800 as the longest Olympic pool event.

Given its more or less been killed off, there's not much point in asking for any more views! But thanks for taking time to put forward a view!

Dear Brick - I am careful not to label people lunatics, lest I offend the real ones. I called 6C "lunatic", but not those in it. Like you I take offence to being called a lunatic for swimming in the sea in "normal" (10-11C and above) but as a practitioner of the 6C, and even lower today (see OW temp thread), I have tried hard to convince myself in the immediate aftermath that it was a sensible thing to do.

[Martin-Y]

From a poolside medium club perspective, the opportunities for my swimmers are limited to league galas, open meets, counties etc. basically as it always has been. Following the inspirational results of Beijing OW and the interest it attracted it would be good to see expanded opportunities for swimmers. I have swimmers that are good at training, good at racing, good at both. A swimmer can be good at training ie. never complains at set or distance, will often lead the lane, has good technique and strength but has never been able to develop the turn of speed required to win a race may be just the sort of swimmer that may excel at longer distance. Were it to be treated in the same way say as an open meet I am sure the opportunities would see some swimmers that are genetically pre-disposed to longer distance come into the category of OW. Without the opportunity we may never know of the pool of talent that we may already have. The chance for distance pool swimming is very limited, open meets are often designed to raise much needed revenue so are a poor platform to expand distance swimming and by distance I mean 800m upwards.
Distance to venue I see as a major stumbling block, especially for smaller clubs, in that some areas of the country will naturally have better access.
I hope I have understood the original question Leprechaun.

[GettingFaster]

I know coaches usually plan training schedules many months ahead, based around suitable competitions, so clearly they would need to know when and where the various competitions would be. Where are they listed and advertised? How many are there over the year that are suitable for agegroupers to take part in?

[Leprechaun]

From a poolside medium club perspective, the opportunities for my swimmers are limited to league galas, open meets, counties etc. basically as it always has been. Following the inspirational results of Beijing OW and the interest it attracted it would be good to see expanded opportunities for swimmers. I have swimmers that are good at training, good at racing, good at both. A swimmer can be good at training ie. never complains at set or distance, will often lead the lane, has good technique and strength but has never been able to develop the turn of speed required to win a race may be just the sort of swimmer that may excel at longer distance. Were it to be treated in the same way say as an open meet I am sure the opportunities would see some swimmers that are genetically pre-disposed to longer distance come into the category of OW. Without the opportunity we may never know of the pool of talent that we may already have. The chance for distance pool swimming is very limited, open meets are often designed to raise much needed revenue so are a poor platform to expand distance swimming and by distance I mean 800m upwards.
Distance to venue I see as a major stumbling block, especially for smaller clubs, in that some areas of the country will naturally have better access.
I hope I have understood the original question Leprechaun.

Yes you have sir. As I have said in earlier threads, the worst thing I hear about OW races is the phrase "I wish I'd known about it". So many swimmers miss cut-off dates as the races can only take a finite number of entrants for logistics and (sensible) Elfin Safety reasons. All that anyone would ask you to do is to be aware of the various calendars (we will post as many as we can) and events and try persuading your swimmers to have a go, but do it as three or four swimmers and let peer pressure work its wonderful way with them!

[Brick]

Yes you have sir. As I have said in earlier threads, the worst thing I hear about OW races is the phrase "I wish I'd known about it". So many swimmers miss cut-off dates as the races can only take a finite number of entrants for logistics and (sensible) Elfin Safety reasons. All that anyone would ask you to do is to be aware of the various calendars (we will post as many as we can) and events and try persuading your swimmers to have a go, but do it as three or four swimmers and let peer pressure work its wonderful way with them!

If the races are filling up, then surely they don't need to advertise more. The ASA puts all their races up on their site. The BLDSA puts their races up on their site, including some that are not run by the BLDSA but by affiliated groups. If races were being cancelled due to lack of interest while people were still expressing the opinion that "I wish I knew", then that would indicate that publicity was lacking. But if the races fill up, then the problem would seem to be that there aren't enough races, or there isn't the logistic support to support a larger number of participants. Problems that should be solved before publicising the events more widely?

[Leprechaun]

If the races are filling up, then surely they don't need to advertise more. The ASA puts all their races up on their site. The BLDSA puts their races up on their site, including some that are not run by the BLDSA but by affiliated groups. If races were being cancelled due to lack of interest while people were still expressing the opinion that "I wish I knew", then that would indicate that publicity was lacking. But if the races fill up, then the problem would seem to be that there aren't enough races, or there isn't the logistic support to support a larger number of participants. Problems that should be solved before publicising the events more widely?

Firstly greater demand will let organisers have the chance to increase permitted entry numbers.

My point was that if there is demand from those who are more traditionally pool-based then the number of meets and numbers competing will increase. But it any case it would be good to see some new faces from the pool cross to the open water side too.

My other point was, to the pool-based swimmers, "why not give it a go?", but recognising that if they dilly-dally they will find entries have all gone.

And finally, in a much more philosophic mood, if there were a lot more OW races, wouldnt there be less opposition to people swimming outdoors generally? Who knows?

[rebeccadblake]

As a Qualified ASA teacher, and OW/Winter swimmer.. i have to point out one thing- How are we to train these youngsters, if our coaches are still being taught age old methods of pool teaching. Some kind of syalbus of OW swimming needs to be included in teacher training. As lets face it, OW swimming is a defferent kettle of fish to pool swimming.

[Leprechaun]

As a Qualified ASA teacher, and OW/Winter swimmer.. i have to point out one thing- How are we to train these youngsters, if our coaches are still being taught age old methods of pool teaching. Some kind of syalbus of OW swimming needs to be included in teacher training. As lets face it, OW swimming is a defferent kettle of fish to pool swimming.

Hi RDB!

Thats a fair point and maybe it has to be a two or more stage process.

First there has to be a recognition OW sits alongside the ASA's other disciplines and isnt the (p)reserve of Channel/marathon swimmers or those who only swim outdoors.

Next you have to get swimmers to give it a try and let them decide if its for them

Thirdly you have to implement the training which, as you say, is quite different.

The ASA's approach at least tries to address the first stage, but what's the message to the pool coaches? And do they want to hear it? It does need the high profile trail-blazers from Beijing to get the message across, but will also need the mainstream coaches to give active (ie encourage swimmers to give it a try) as opposed to passive (not resisting) support?

Your point about the training is well made but it is probably most aligned with my third point. Some support to pool coaches to be aware of the opportunities, the challenge and so on is needed to get them to persuade their swimmers to have a go is also appropriate I guess.

Adding an OW appreciation to the Teaching Syllabus would seem to be a sensible way forward. As I'm not a qualified Teacher I am not familiar with the content if anything in either the teaching or coaching courses. Taking it in two parts - 1. Awareness and Opportunities Offered and 2. Training Approach might be the way to crack the various stages.

[amanda.corndoll]

"I find the Open Water threads generally interesting as it is an area of swimming I have never been involved in. If I ever get fit enough I may try it in the future.[/QUOTE]


Tewson V. i see you are north hereford. hopefully not too far from Evesham. Im ALWAYS after people to swim with! im a slow scenic swimmer so you will be fit enough!! Theres some lovely places to swim!
(worth a try! eh folks!)

apologies not strictly on topic. and i messed up the quoting.

[rebeccadblake]

Hi RDB!

Thats a fair point and maybe it has to be a two or more stage process.

First there has to be a recognition OW sits alongside the ASA's other disciplines and isnt the (p)reserve of Channel/marathon swimmers or those who only swim outdoors.

Next you have to get swimmers to give it a try and let them decide if its for them

Thirdly you have to implement the training which, as you say, is quite different.

The ASA's approach at least tries to address the first stage, but what's the message to the pool coaches? And do they want to hear it? It does need the high profile trail-blazers from Beijing to get the message across, but will also need the mainstream coaches to give active (ie encourage swimmers to give it a try) as opposed to passive (not resisting) support?

Your point about the training is well made but it is probably most aligned with my third point. Some support to pool coaches to be aware of the opportunities, the challenge and so on is needed to get them to persuade their swimmers to have a go is also appropriate I guess.

Adding an OW appreciation to the Teaching Syllabus would seem to be a sensible way forward. As I'm not a qualified Teacher I am not familiar with the content if anything in either the teaching or coaching courses. Taking it in two parts - 1. Awareness and Opportunities Offered and 2. Training Approach might be the way to crack the various stages.


Hey Leppy!!

Yes indeed, getting the interest of the swimmers is paramount. I've found with minority of my swimmers- its an interesting side step. Especially for those burnt out, as they've simply become to bored of swimming seemingly endless lenghts - wouldn't it be great to tie up those swimmers and get them in the sea!!! I've meet some amazing swimmers, but next is- how to indentify those who'll put up with stiff hands and numb toes!

I am amazingly pleased that the ASA are starting to indentify OW as a disapline, so lets hope it doesn't take to long to bring this into effect.

Yes I see your point, the top bods i know aren't really interested in OW- although Bejing has certainly made some effect on their occasion narrow minds! I think it does require-as you rightly say- some kind of active encouragement to get it more in peoples minds.

Ohh don't get me started on the "Teaching Syllabus". Whislt I realise in this day and age, that paperwork is a nesscary part of a lot of practical activities- however I really do believe that the ASA take it one step too far, i can only imagine how they will de-moralise future OW coaches.

I'd love to be in the consulting process, but alas I'm sure they'll only listen to their bejing colleuges... ho hum, i might contact them anyways!

[Tewson Veste]

"I find the Open Water threads generally interesting as it is an area of swimming I have never been involved in. If I ever get fit enough I may try it in the future.


Tewson V. i see you are north hereford. hopefully not too far from Evesham. Im ALWAYS after people to swim with! im a slow scenic swimmer so you will be fit enough!! Theres some lovely places to swim!
(worth a try! eh folks!)

apologies not strictly on topic. and i messed up the quoting.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but when I say future I mean at least another 12 months. I still struggle to swim more than 200m in a pool yet alone across a lake or down a river. It would also be during the warm summer months.

I have scuba dived in English lakes when water temp's have been 2-3 c. (in a wet suit) and it was not something I would like to repeat.

Try me again during the summer of 2010. !!!!!!

[amanda.corndoll]

oh well worth a try!

[adamlelean]

Leppy to pull this back on topic a bit.
I'm all for open water swimming, it gives the swimmers a different aspect of swimming to enjoy. Swimmers should be allowed to try every aspect of swimming.

In 2007 about 6 swimmers from my club participated in the East Region open water swimming competition. In 2008 I think the number was 12, with around 20 taking part in a local pier to pier swim in August.
One swimmer was talking about giving up swimming, I pointed out that if she did she wouldn't be allowed to take part in the East Region open water swim. She subsequently changed her mind how much the open water swimming affected her decission I cannot be sure.

I had out forms with the instructions that this is totally optional and no-one will think any less of the swimmers if they don't participate. I've even advised swimmers against swimming longer distances because of their inexperience, although they've never taken any notice.

[richard-broer]

We are a bit off topic. This whole part of the forum is a discussion group on open water swimming including triathlon. The latter part is not often read about here and has many own sites.
Important is to notice that some people incorporate cold water swimming and wild swimming in this section next to open water swimming (conform FINA and/or ASA/KNZB/etc definitions) and what I call solo swimming.
The "cold" and "wild" versions of open water swimming are very separate disciplines from the regular sport.

Cold water swimming is all about getting resistant to harsh temperature conditions.
Wild swimming is partly politics and that part has nothing to do with swimming itself. In most other countries there is no such thing al wild swimming because there are hardly any restrictions.
Open water swimming is the discipline of long distance swimming and marathon swimming in competition with others.
Solo swimming is an (extreme) endurance sport: swimming long distances in open water. Usually accompanied by a safety vessel. Swimming The English Channel/Pas de Calais is the ultimate solo swim.

So let's keep to the topic: open water swimming focussed on the 10km Marathon.

Leppy's question was: do we see an increase in interest for open water swimming as coaches?

In The Netherlands we have seen the increase earlier due to the exploits of Edith van Dijk and Maarten van der Weijden. The increase started around the millennium when Edith won several golds at the FINA world championships.

I think other countries (even those without any Olympic metal) will see an increase in interest in open water as a real sport. We have seen aquarium (pool) swimmers crossing over to open water and being successful.

We have also seen that there is some jealousy in the traditional open water swimmer with lower speeds. The slower swimmers see all the grand prizes being taken away by those newcomers that dare take a dive in (our waters). The open water is no more only for an exclusive elite that dare out into the murky depths of open water. It is no more a secret that is not all as horrible as once foreseen by many. It is so much fun to compete in open water events!
Our education of the masses in swimming look to be successful at last!

[FiFi LaMarché]

I think other countries (even those without any Olympic metal) will see an increase in interest in open water as a real sport. We have seen aquarium (pool) swimmers crossing over to open water and being successful.

We have also seen that there is some jealousy in the traditional open water swimmer with lower speeds. The slower swimmers see all the grand prizes being taken away by those newcomers that dare take a dive in (our waters). The open water is no more only for an exclusive elite that dare out into the murky depths of open water. It is no more a secret that is not all as horrible as once foreseen by many. It is so much fun to compete in open water events!
Our education of the masses in swimming look to be successful at last!

I think the crossover of aquarium swimmers (nice term!) is a really interesting point to note, and believe it is great for swimming as a sport for more swimmers to participate in open water races.

While there may be some jealousy as some of the faster aquarium swimmers begin to attain success in the open water, there are enough cases of the opposite to keep things interesting. Grant Hackett had a high profile "miss" from the Olympic 10KM event. I also know of the case of an Aussie olympic freestyler, who went on to swim a 20km ocean race in 2005 and was disgusted to be beaten by two girls (!).

[Leprechaun]

We are a bit off topic. This whole part of the forum is a discussion group on open water swimming including triathlon. The latter part is not often read about here and has many own sites.
Important is to notice that some people incorporate cold water swimming and wild swimming in this section next to open water swimming (conform FINA and/or ASA/KNZB/etc definitions) and what I call solo swimming.
The "cold" and "wild" versions of open water swimming are very separate disciplines from the regular sport.

Cold water swimming is all about getting resistant to harsh temperature conditions.
Wild swimming is partly politics and that part has nothing to do with swimming itself. In most other countries there is no such thing al wild swimming because there are hardly any restrictions.
Open water swimming is the diciplin of long distance swimming of marathon swimming in competition with others.
Solo swimming is an (extreme) endurance sport: swimming long distances in open water. Usually accompanied by a safety vessel. Swimming The English Channel/Pas de Calais is the ultimate solo swim.

So let's keep to the topic: open water swimming focussed on the 10km Marathon.

Leppy's question was: do we see an increase in interest for open water swimming as coaches?

In The Netherlands we have seen the increase earlier due to the exployts of Edith van Dijk and Maarten van der Weijden. The increase started around the millennium when Edith won several golds at the FINA world championships.

I think other countries (even those without any Olympic metal) will see an increase in interest in open water as a real sport. We have seen aquarium (pool) swimmers crossing over to open water and being successful.

We have also seen that there is some jealousy in the traditional open water swimmer with lower speeds. The slower swimmers see all the grand prizes being taken away by those newcomers that dare take a dive in (our waters). The open water is no more only for an exclusive elite that dare out into the murky depths of open water. It is no more a secret that is not all as horrible as once foreseen by many. It is so much fun to compete in open water events!
Our education of the masses in swimming look to be successful at last!

Hear-hear!

And go look at R-B's website too.

lpy

[SwimParent]

Hi RDB!

Thats a fair point and maybe it has to be a two or more stage process.

First there has to be a recognition OW sits alongside the ASA's other disciplines and isnt the (p)reserve of Channel/marathon swimmers or those who only swim outdoors.

Next you have to get swimmers to give it a try and let them decide if its for them

Thirdly you have to implement the training which, as you say, is quite different.

The ASA's approach at least tries to address the first stage, but what's the message to the pool coaches? And do they want to hear it? It does need the high profile trail-blazers from Beijing to get the message across, but will also need the mainstream coaches to give active (ie encourage swimmers to give it a try) as opposed to passive (not resisting) support?

Your point about the training is well made but it is probably most aligned with my third point. Some support to pool coaches to be aware of the opportunities, the challenge and so on is needed to get them to persuade their swimmers to have a go is also appropriate I guess.

Adding an OW appreciation to the Teaching Syllabus would seem to be a sensible way forward. As I'm not a qualified Teacher I am not familiar with the content if anything in either the teaching or coaching courses. Taking it in two parts - 1. Awareness and Opportunities Offered and 2. Training Approach might be the way to crack the various stages.

When you talk about ASA trying to address the first stage, I am not sure if I am alone, but GB (and ASA?) appear to have swung the pendulum in the opposite direction.
Under the current GB policy, to have the opportunities in Open Water one now has to qualify in the pool. Whilst I agree, we should target the faster 800/1500 swimmers to give OW a try, I object to the current OW swimmers having to qualify in the pool (as per the Age Groups this year). As some other people have mentioned, OW is different and requires additional training.

Am I the only person to see that there is no real link between competitors at 800/1500 and 10K. ie. I don't believe the fastest 1500 (pool) swimmer will be the fastest OW 10K swimmer. If you look at the men's OW in the World Championships, the medal winners were not the fastest 1500 swimmers in the race.

It is not possible to compare performances in different OW events, for example swimmer A swam 10K at event 1 in 1hr 52min and swimmer B swam 10K at event 2 in 1hr 55min. Is it logical to say swimmer A is better than swimmer B ? I say NO !! Hopefully people agree that each OW event has so many different things affecting the swim from the type of water, the weather, the type of course etc. Not forgetting that the course distance for most OW courses (if not all) is really only an estimate.

At the end of the day, I believe we all want the same thing - to find the best OW swimmers. I think the only fair and logical way is to hold an OW "trial" in order to qualify for an international OW event. It should be done via an OW event without any restriction to the entries. I believe you can only compare swimmers when they are in the same water at the same time.

If you restrict the entry (as GB seem to be doing) based on Pool times, I believe you are potentially excluding the better open water swimmers. Going back to my example of the World Championships, at the time I looked on the 1500m rankings Thomas Lurz was 53rd, yet he won the 10K by 1.4 seconds, in second place was Andrew Gemmell who was 33rd in the 1500m rankings, over 7.5 seconds quicker than Thomas. Based on what I believe GBs logic to be, Andrew Gemmell should have won by around 45 seconds !!! If the World Champs had been a GB Trial, Thomas would probably not have been allowed to compete and GB would have selected Andrew Gemmell.
Hopefully that scenario makes as much sense to you as it does to me.

Does anyone else feel that GB have gone too far or have I lost the plot and completely missed the logic ?

[swimbar]

Does anyone else feel that GB have gone too far or have I lost the plot and completely missed the logic ?

I think you have missed the plot!! All the swimmers who have won medals for GB in recent international events, including Juniors, are basically pool swimmers who have been encouraged to compete in Open Water, and are still competing in the pool.

That is why the current policy has been adopted.

[dampflippers]

Earlier in the week my daughter attended a training session/camp where David Davies was guest.

Judging from the way she has been talking about it, he was pretty inspirational, and spoke in some detail about training and the Olympic race itself as well as demonstrating the water retention properties of the swimsuit.

Nice one.

Encouraging participation in open water swimming will be easier if younger swimmers are aware and inspired. Though to counter this I assume my daughter is not the only one who can barely swim in the sea and does not enjoy it at all. But then she can't do the head-up breaststroke! And curiously, and unlike her older brother, she struggles to complete a length of the Tooting Lido as she starts freezing up as soon as she gets to the half way point.

When I was young there was an annual river race (The Swim Through Cambridge) which all club members were encouraged to do as soon as they could manage the distance, so open water swimming was accepted as part of the club calendar.

I'm now a returning swimmer in a completely different area and type of club and I would say there is no way the club would go out of its way to encourage anyone to do open water or long distance races even though I have passed on details of local races.
I would suggest that in alot of clubs, encouraging open water racing would only happen if a coach had a particular interest or was also a triathlete, or by the trickle effect year on year.

At the ground roots end of the sport though, then the Great North Swim seems to have sparked far more interest in outdoor racing than anything the ASA has done, with more participation events around the country, and hopefully the elite end will improve partly due to this. Maybe Manic Porpoise will be an example of this sometime following her win in her first open water event.

Anyone (non elite) who wants to train for distance events may get more distance focussed training from a triathlon club (as I am).

But I expect the ASA want to focus on winning olympic medals which seems to be the only way the sport is measured, then I hope their methods will be successful.