European Short Course 2002

[lane4]

From the ASA site re the above meet...

The mixture of senior and junior swimmers will take on the best European swimming nations with a distinct disadvantage. Unlike the Germans, Swedes or Italians, the Brits are in full heavy training which means they are not rested and ready to swim fast. Indeed this should make them several seconds slower. This is the brainchild of Britain's National Performance Director Bill Sweetenham who wants to toughen up his squad mentally and physically by making them do everything the hard way. This should make a staggering difference to the British results. For Commonwealth double gold medallist Sarah Price this could mean she's anything up to 3 seconds slower when she defends her European title in the 200m backstroke. For freestyler Mel Marshall of Loughborough University, seen as one of the most improving swimmers in the country at present, going into the Championships unrested could mean she's as much as two seconds slower in the 200m freestyle.

Spin spin spin. What a joke!
Like before Bill came along these guys had never done a meet unrested before!? Like they have never raced in just costumes or trunks before!? Like they have only ever swum well at full taper meets before!? Bill and the swimmers should be expecting PB's regardless of whether they are tapered or not and I'm sure Bill is expecting PB's this week. I can't believe he would accept Price doing +3 and Marshall +2 so why is the ASA site saying that's what they are going to do!? Make your excuses before the event perhaps? Either that or make it appear like we did better than we were supposed to!?

[Katie]

It's just their way of setting us up to be disappointed, and then if anyone does anything good we'll all be "wow! unshaved, untapered, unrested AND wearing those archaic costumes and trunks too! The genious!" I'm worried about my spelling. Anyway. I'm sure Bill will be EXPECTING pbs but whether he gets them... Keri-Ann Payne is flying back from Melbourne something like the day before the competition after 2 weeks out in Shanghai and Melbourne for the world cups. She's going to be completely drained. I'll be interested to see if she does PBs, but quite honestly I think she'll be very tired and just about ready to go home! Not that that's ever an excuse. :D

[lane4]

I wonder how the ASA / GB knows that Germany, Sweden, Italy etc have all fully rested for this meet?

And of course ASA / GB conveniently forgot to mention that Darren Mew is out of the meet have damaged muscles/tendons in his knee.

[lane4]

Originally posted by Katie
Keri-Ann Payne is flying back from Melbourne something like the day before the competition after 2 weeks out in Shanghai and Melbourne for the world cups. She's going to be completely drained. I'll be interested to see if she does PBs, but quite honestly I think she'll be very tired and just about ready to go home! Not that that's ever an excuse. :D

Having seen Keri-Ann train and compete I'm pretty sure she can handle this and I would not expect her to be well below par because of it. She will not necessarily be completely drained. It is obvious she has incredible recovery skills and thus I expect her to cope with it all fine.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by lane4
And of course ASA / GB conveniently forgot to mention that Darren Mew is out of the meet have damaged muscles/tendons in his knee.

How did you find out about this L4? You must have some kind of network of spies supplying you with information. Or maybe I'm just being paranoid...:D

[Katie]

Originally posted by lane4
Having seen Keri-Ann train and compete I'm pretty sure she can handle this and I would not expect her to be well below par because of it. She will not necessarily be completely drained. It is obvious she has incredible recovery skills and thus I expect her to cope with it all fine.
Knowing Keri-Ann suggests to me that although she is completely capable of handling it, she will probably be feeling ready to go home and not really wanting to compete again.
When did Darren Mew hurt his knee?
What are the actual dates of the championships?

[Steve]

Katie, the champs start today (12th Decemeber) and run until Sunday (15th December) :)

[Tara]

Damn! Cant see the results of the Europeans at work cause have no acrobat reader (ok am meant to be doing work not looking up swimming results!!!) Any news as yet?

[Steve]

Enjoyed the first day of swimming (depsite eurosport's schedules being wrong and missing the first 15 minutes on teh video: rolleyes: ) but I could have sworn that the Brititsh team were supposed to be competing without body suits - of the races I saw only pricey had what could be called a traditional suit on (and I Diana one - I bet her sponsors speedo were delighted...) - Sheps even had a kneeskin on. Maybe I've misunderstood and the "no bodysuit" rule only applied to the world cups, (the ASA site doesn't mention it in the report - see below) but seems a bit strange.

What's making the European Championships and World Cups so gruelling for the Brits is that National Performance Director Bill Sweetenham has ruled they must compete whilst in heavy training. So not for them the restful period before a major competition or the sports massages after races.

Anyway good to see Parry winning silver; roll on Sheps in the 100 free and Hickman in the 100 fly!

[Bazza]

Yes good stuff. Re the suits, I was under the impression the British swimmers had to wear Diana stuff, and were not allowed to wear Speedo (unless for example they cunningly scratched the sponsors name from their fastskin or whatever! :rolleyes: )

[lane4]

Originally posted by lane4
It is obvious she has incredible recovery skills and thus I expect her to cope with it all fine.

4:09 and 8:25 - 4th in both. It seems I was correct! :D

[lane4]

Given the results from the meet and the hair you could see on some swimmers arms/legs/faces/heads when watching on TV, it would appear that Britain were not the only country who trained through!!!!!

:eek:

[Katie]

Originally posted by lane4
4:09 and 8:25 - 4th in both. It seems I was correct! :D

Actually she was 5th in the 800. But still very good!!!!!

[Bazza]

Yeah - one moan - I was at home over the weekend, and thought this was fortunate as it would allow me to see some of the action from Germany. Well it did, but I had to stay up until 2am to see it!!

What are Eurosport playing at? They're usually pretty good, but instead decided to show a replay of the curling (surely even swimming has more spectators than curling?!?!), delaying the already 9 hours late coverage by another hour.

I was expecting to see some exciting live coverage but was instead disappointed as Eurosport 'did a beeb' and delayed the swimming until they had nothing else to put on! :mad:

[Dreama]

at the end of the day if it's not football they don't care!

[Bazza]

No that's the thing though, Eurosport are usually quite good with swimming. Whenever there are World or European championships on they show every session live and don't actually show alot of football (well only foreign roobish), but for some reason this weekend decided 11.15pm was a suitable time for their loyal army of swimming spectators to wait until, before delaying the program further still... :mad:

[Haddock]

The international version of Eurosport did show the swimming live
mid afternoon Saturday/Sunday.
Almost missed it as the TV listings now give British Eurosport.

This is what I suspected would happen when the British version
was launched on SKY digital and why I kept my Sky analogue
set top box.

Those of you with SKY digital will soon see swimming disappear
completely and be replaced with more BBC type sports.

[Bazza]

That doesn't sound good. I don't have Sky Digital, though I do receive British Eurosport, so does the same apply to me? :(

[Haddock]

Yes there is only one British Eurosport via sat or cable.
This is only my feel for how things will go.
British Eurosport is targeted on British viewers and from what you
see on the BBC swimming is not up there in the top ten.

Anyone know Drew Gordon or James Parrack to ask what they
feel as regards future swimming coverage on British Eurosport.

[Rachel]

Didn't find anything else about this article on the boards, my apologies if it is already posted ...

Sweetenham axes top swimmers
http://www.foxsports.news.com.au/story/0,8659,5696628-23218,00.html

[Bazza]

Ouch! Not quite sure what to make of that just at the minute...

[lane4]

You can find a more comprehensive version of that news item here:

http://www.bscta.com/news%20main.htm

And yes, ouch indeed! Its not just Foster and Baker he's mad with either. Very interesting that he has decided to have a go at the swimmers and coaches like this.

[ktcute]

How about the sooner we get him out of the country the better?

I don't want gold medals if they are going to involve assaults on 14 year olds in public.

What does he mean by:

" It’s not a punishment — it’s a let’s-get-it-right mentality. British kids aren’t used to that."

do we think?

He seems to be right behind whoever seems to be winning him the prestige he needs at the time. Is this all spin?

As for Mark Foster, if he doesn't like swimming that much, ok, fair enough. I'm sure at 32 he can probably decide that for himself. Lets face it, no ones OBLIGED to do something just because they are good at it.

[Tara]

"Sweetenham, who arrived in autumn 2000 after Britain failed to win an Olympic medal for the first time since 1936, also decreed that those who fall short of a minimum of 60 kilometres of training a week will not be selected for the European rounds of the World Cup series in January"
There will be quite a few swimmers missing then?! Do we know who is going to the World Cups yet?

[Katie]

well I won't be going then! :(

[lane4]

Originally posted by Katie
well I won't be going then! :(

Indeed you won't or will it be one rule for some, another rule for others!? I think those not doing enough training will be getting / have got a letter telling them they won't be going to Paris if they don't up their training to 60km/week.

[ktcute]

I have the answer.... electric fins :)

[Katie]

Well... I have bn sending in weekly logs, and JOhn appreciates that its v difficult to do 60000 in the 12 hours of pool time available to me. So I get to do 50000. Woopee, only 8300m a session... entirely possible! I'm getting in 45K which they seem fairly happy with though. Don't know if I'll be able to go though.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by ktcute
How about the sooner we get him out of the country the better?

I don't want gold medals if they are going to involve assaults on 14 year olds in public.

What are you reffering too there...?!?


What does he mean by:

" It’s not a punishment — it’s a let’s-get-it-right mentality. British kids aren’t used to that."

do we think?

I read into that as that they need to realise that it's constructive criticism not putting someone down ... :confused:


As for Mark Foster, if he doesn't like swimming that much, ok, fair enough. I'm sure at 32 he can probably decide that for himself. Lets face it, no ones OBLIGED to do something just because they are good at it.

When i read that quote from Mark Foster i just shook my head ... "'Bill - I don't like swimming too much'."

LOL :D
if he doesn't like swimming THAT much if i were him i'd be deciding pretty quick...!

[Steve]

Originally posted by ktcute
As for Mark Foster, if he doesn't like swimming that much, ok, fair enough. I'm sure at 32 he can probably decide that for himself. Lets face it, no one's OBLIGED to do something just because they are good at it.

Quite right, but in the same way Bill is not OBLIGED to pay for Fos to go to the world cup. 'Nuff said.

[Katie]

Nor Zoe Baker, although the impression I get when watching her interviews on TV is that she's a much more dedicated swimmer than Mark Foster. Our only two British World Record holders have been "banished" (as the Times said!) by Bill Sweetenham. Don't you just think it's so unfair the way some people love the sport, and would like nothing better than to be as good as Mark Foster (well, most people would!) and there he is at the top, the best in the world, and all he's got to say is 'Bill - I don't like swimming too much'!!

[bobby]

Are you sure that Mark Foster didn't mean that he didn't like swimming too much as in too many metres and preferred to do more gym work?

[Bazza]

All the big man means when he says that is he prefers other methods of training. He obviously also feels these are beneficial and they haven't done him much harm over the years (how many WRs has he broken? How many medals has he won at major international competitions?). After 16 years at the top of the sport I would imagine you need to do what you want to an extent, so as to maintain motivation and enthusiasm...

[ktcute]

I think by being OBLIGED to do something, I think I meant that he is perfectly entitled to be doing something else.

Unfortunately after a childhood spent being "asked" to swim up and down a pool and dropping out of education a couple of times, maybe he is struggling to find something else he can do. Perhaps we are going to suggest that is his problem. Maybe he feels just a little bit resentful towards swimming, and that is why he "doesn't like swimming that much." With the pressure these athletes get put under, is it all that suprising they get tired and jaded, and given his experiences isn't it likely he is going to be put off?

Perhaps he is an adult giving an honest reflection of the workload he is being asked to put in, and our top coaches are expoiting young people who aren't really in a position to turn round and say "stuff you". Now there really is a problem in swimming...

[ktcute]

Oh, and as for the can do mentality, I wonder if its because our coaches are always telling us we can't, and never that we can.

PRAISE works wonders... :)

[ktcute]

Oh, and as for talent. We really do have to learn to live with that one.

Some people are naturally prettier than others. Some people are smarter. Some people swim faster. Thats the way it is. We need to be mature enough to accept that, and not just let ourselves be eaten alive by jealousy.

Again coaches are quick to say "but you can train it out". Not sure thats really true... and is it fair to ask someone less talented to swim 10 times harder to make up the difference????

Perhaps most of this stems from the fact swimming increasingly seems to be heading towards pro/semi pro status?

[Rachel]

Good points ktcute, and those who saw the logical side of foster's comments and just didn't do a me and take the !@#$ out of them ... points well made! ;) :p :)

[Steve]

Originally posted by bazzaroodoo
how many WRs has he broken?

LC 1; SC 6

Originally posted by bazzaroodoo
How many medals has he won at major international competitions?

Define major? On the basis you mean Long Course & Individual medals (which most people would consider to be major, and would proabbly also exclude the commie games...)

Olympics: 0
World: 1 bronze
European: 1 Silver 2 Bronze
Commies: 2 Gold 3 Bronze

For completeness: Short Course:

World: 5 Gold 2 Silver 1 Bronze
European: 6 Gold 3 Silver

The critical figure as far as Bill is concerned is that nice round number for the Olympics.

[Phil Tanner]

You can see how they could get in a bind over this. Like it or not, the Olympics are the thing that everyone notices. Bill Sweetenham has zero influence over that.

If GB don't win medals next time, funding will evaporate - but unlike, say, football where you need a couple of dozen world-class performers to be a world leader, swimming could theoretically get itself perceived as such with two or three. (The Netherlands is seen as a strong swimming nation, but how many people could instantly name more than one world-class Dutch swimmer?)

And there will always be some exceptional individuals who can take any amount of pressure in training and be the sort-of shock troops for an assault on the Olympics.

However, start to apply these techniques too low down the age range and/or without extreme care and thanks to our poor facilities and the extortionate cost of pool-time, you could achieve Olympic success and simultaneously erode the base of the sport on which the whole thing stands, because you need a large base at club level to fund the coaching and pool time for the top performers.

There were two parts to the message BS put out recently, and only one of them seems to be getting an outing a few weeks later - many people are either swimming too little for the level of success they want, OR too much.

[ktcute]

The critical figure as far as Bill is concerned is that nice round number for the Olympics.


Ok fantastic. Lets encourage young people to value others on the basis of how many medals than can win once every four years. Fan dabby dozy.

[James S]

What the guy employed to help our country achieve Olympic success is not allowed to rate success in these terms??????

Foster was meaning he doesn't like swimming too much as in metereage as Bobby suggested earlier. That comment didn't refer to any lack of passion for the sport. His attitude towards the advice/ suggestions/ rules put in place by someone brought in to do what noone has been able to do so far (well in my time) has been shocking and does question his passion for the sport. He has, in the past, publicly ridiculed Bill Sweetenhams ideas in front of impressionable youngsters which I found unforgivable and shocking. He has no respect for authority in my opinion.

My impression of him is that he is lazy. Sure, he works hard doing what HE wants to do and expects to be given the same courtesy as people who do that little extra to achieve THEIR goals (if they do not want to achieve the goals Bill expects them to achieve then they should not be given the backing by british swimming as future world/olympic champions (see there is a choice for them to make)in my opinion).

He has a talent but obviously talent alone is not what is required to make olympic champion (which is no doubt what Foster wants for himself too). Every other swimmer competing for the same goal puts in hard work. Similar, I feel to striving to be the best in any field.

You can be the cleverest person doing a medical degree but if you do not study, you will not be the best - no chance. Do we criticise the powers in a university for marking down a student who is not doing what is required of them? I very much doubt it.

Would we expect in any other field (study, research, business) to continue to receive grants/ funding etc if we were not fulfilling the requirements of that funding? In a right mind - no we would not! This is no different. These people are striving to be the best in their CHOSEN field and they take it seriously (most of them) and no matter if they do go through some pain or upset getting there, they, for the most part ,will feel it is worth it when they finally get there.

We are not talking about every single person who chooses to swim competitively, we are talking about the ones who have this amazing, ultimate goal. It is supposed to be tough!

[James S]

sorry that was a bit long

[ktcute]

Perhaps he is not so worried about olympic succes. Perhaps he encouraging youngsters to develop a healthy attitude to themselves and their successes, without being totally obsessive about winning olympic success. If that is the case, then good luck to him, I wish him EVERY SUCCESS. I hope to god he manages to make some impression.

I'm not going to blindly follow someone who in my opinion, has a mouth out of which sometimes are uttered comments which are to uprejudiced observer are derisory. Of course the little swimmers are too young to be taking him to court for slander... and who has the money anyway.

I won't support his attitude, I don't think it is healthy to tell people to be successful at any cost, and I think swimming should be asking itself whether we really want someone who is paid in this capacity. It isn't exactly a shining good example of how to encourage people.

I don't want swimming to become like football, nasty bitching, backstabbing, unsupportive rediculously overpaid sport that it is.

So if people have a differing opinion to Sweetenham, please utter it, please tell me I'm not getting involved in a sport whose only knowledge of psychology is mind control.

[Phil Tanner]

But let's assume for the sake of argument that - as always, whether we like it or not - Olympic success demands these attitudes, and the sport depends on Olympic success for its future profile and long-term good.

Do we:
a) recoil and settle for being a backwater?
b) recognize that's where we need to go at elite level, but tread very selectively and carefully - recognizing that the younger the participants are, the more carefully the sport has to tread, but that athletes in their mid-20s or early 30s are adults who can make a choice?

I'd say b)

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
Ok fantastic. Lets encourage young people to value others on the basis of how many medals than can win once every four years. Fan dabby dozy.

Stop it KT stop it. Please for heaven's sake stop talking like this! You are completely missing the point of the thread.

[ktcute]

Ok... look here's my bottom line. Frankly I don't care what the h*** you want to do. Stand on your head for 10 years.

I care about whether or not achieving involves abuse or misuse of people, and I care about whether we are trying to achieve in a way that respects and cares about them, or whether they are going to leave the sport age 25 not knowing who the hell they are, or how to form an opinion for themselves. I'm worried about the turn of swimming towards an obsession for success.

Do I think that whether we get 25 gold medals or 0 is going to make the blindest bit of difference to how much people enjoy swimming up and down in the pool. No I blinking don't, neither do I think it should. As for losing out on a bit of funding for the elite levels well errrrmmmm... well thanks a lot for caring about the "base level".

Frankly I think it means if we don't screw people up, and we don't make them totally miserable unecessarily, then if we don't get above the baseline level of medals then the British public, the coaches, and swimming fraternity should learn to lump it.

At the end of the day I think there is only so far we should go, and I think this guy is over doing it, and being thoroughly unprofessional in the standards he adopts as regards thing like confidentiality in the context of his job. Can you think of other sports or coaches who slag people off like this?

[ktcute]

Oh, and lane4 I didn't think the job of a moderator was to dictate what people discussed in a thread... without very good reason. And if you could stop trying to make me sound stupid, I'd really appreciate it.

I'm making a point. You might not like where I am going with it, but thats part of being a discussion forum.

[Katie]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[swimmer]

go kt go kt!!!!!!!! (btw completly aggree with wot u just said!!!!) just let people have their own views, if u dont like it, deal wiv it, dont try and dictate them.

[stella]

I don't think lane4 is the one making you sound stupid!!

[Phil Tanner]

whether they are going to leave the sport age 25 not knowing who the hell they are

I think this is getting a bit far-fetched now. Whatever level swimmers get to, I find it hard to imagine a sport which is better geared to teaching people exactly who they are, because it is so much about individuals testing themselves against their own goals and previous performances as well as the rest of the field.

[ktcute]

MMmmm... yup. You get told "Get in the pool, do nothing else." Don't get out for long enough to decide whether or not you want to swim or not... aka Mark Foster syndrome.

My objection I guess is that for the most talented they are "encouraged" to a point whereby the only thing they really know is swimming. So the goals that matter in this life become only swimming goals. How can this be right or healthy?

How am I making myself sound stupid Stella?

[rogant stard]

Originally posted by ktcute
How am I making myself sound stupid Stella?

I'm not sure you'd be able to fully appreciate it.

Who gets told all that you mentioned? I was never told that or have said that to my swimmers. Were you treated like that KT?

[ktcute]

I'm rather talking about the elite level of athletes afforementioned. Bill appears to be saying get in the pool and never get out. Remind me to start a thread asking whether professional athletes should be treated in the same way as any other professional.

I think hiding behind words like "I'm not sure you would be able to fully appreciate it" is particularly brave incidentally. Perhaps you could further explain what you mean, rather than trying to score points by being cryptic?

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
Bill appears to be saying get in the pool and never get out.

Only to you KT, only to you.
To everyone else he is saying if Britain's elite swimmers want to win medals at the Olympic Games they need to do more training. I know the guy and have heard him speak on numerous occasions. Let me assure you that I have never heard him say that swimmers should never get out of the pool.

[Phil Tanner]

He can't possibly be telling them to do nothing but swim. Do the maths for just how long that amount of mileage would take these guys - they fly through the water. My 13-yo usually misses at least one of the sessions available to her and typically does just either side of 50k a week, plus 7.5 hrs a day school, plus a musical instrument, plus a pony. She's one of probably many hundreds around the country juggling these things at that age and a little older.

Many, maybe all the national elite are to all intents purposes full-time swimmers or able to build their studies/part-time work around their training, rather than vice versa. 60K doesn't seem like that big a step-up.

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
I care about whether or not achieving involves abuse or misuse of people, and I care about whether we are trying to achieve in a way that respects and cares about them, or whether they are going to leave the sport age 25 not knowing who the hell they are, or how to form an opinion for themselves. I'm worried about the turn of swimming towards an obsession for success.

You are surely only talking about swimming from your own personal experience here and I am truely sorry that the sport treated you so badly to make you as upset and bitter as this. It is a real shame that you cannot embrace all the positive aspects of what dedication to swimming can bring to enhance someone's life.

I have never met anyone for whom swimming caused them to not know who they are or unable to form an opinion of themselves. Obviously this happened to you KT but who else do you know who became like this because they swam? And I challenge everyone reading this to say whether or not this is happening to swimmers as per KT's suggestion?

[swimmer]

Quote from Phil Tanner: plus 7.5 hrs a day school

lucky! i have 9 :( i get there at 8am (leaving at 7.45) and get home at 5pm, i then have dinner, then im so tired i usually fall asleep until i leave for training at 6pm, depending on what day it is i get home at 9.30-10pm, then i have a snack before starting my AS level work at about 10.15, that takes me until about 12-1am. then i go to sleep and wake up at 6.30am in the morn, or if i have early morn training at school on tues, im up at 6am. its hard work and im tired most of the time, and alllways falling asleep in lessons - opps! (but most of the teachers understand). But i know all this is mty choice, i am totally addicted to swimming and could never give it up coz i luv it too much, i love the challenge and stuff, so i know its all of MY own choice.
I completly disagrree with wot ktcute said about not knowing who you are, i know who i am, i have a social life after training on fri, and on sat. My mom and dad are almost TOTALLY against me training! EVERYDAY i have to tell them when its time to go training, and pursuade them to take me, they always say they cant be bothered and stuff, but it is me making them take me. They dont understand it at all, they hate the sport and barely come to galas, if they do they see my race then go, they wont support the others. They have a constant go at me everyday about how taking me training is ruining their social life and stuf (they only take me on tues morns coz it is at school and they have paid the fees for me to go, and they are 100% school school school.) I only train on sunday,mon,tues x2, weds, fri. they wont take me on thurs coz my mum says she "needs a rest", and if our club had morning training my rents wouldnt take me anyway and theres no1 that i can get a regular lift off) And then the toher day (considering ive been training for about 9 yers now) i asked my mom if she could get me a HR monitor and she went off on one saying how dangers it is to be working my heart and stuff! she dosent understand! and for like all the big meets shes like oh jsut mss that one out, or shes like well im not giving up all my weekend for you, you can only do one day and stuff. It's a constant fight. Another example is i have saved up to buy all my aquablades myself as mom wont buy me any as she says i dont need them, and i only got my fastskin because i did well in this school exam! i need a new one now but she is refusing to buy me one.
And hence i think that what people say about swimming causing them to not know who they are or form an opinion of themselves is COMPLETLY false. It has helped me to work out who i am, and has made me extremely dedicated in all areas of life, and because of me having to force my rents to take me (and then they do so very grudgingly!!) i have a great determination to overcome anything in my life, and get what i want in life. I can throughly say that swimming has been (and still is) the most influential thing in my life and the thing that has shaped my character.

ops sorry to go on!! you can wake up now!!

[Katie]

I know it's hard Emma, it's hard for everyone! But swimming's as much of a commitment for parents as it is for us and I think all swimmers should remember how much of their time we take up.

[stella]

Originally posted by ktcute
How am I making myself sound stupid Stella?

ktcute, you will obviously never see it which is great for you (I would love to be so blinkered to certain things about myself) and not so great for the rest of us.

I am genuinely concerned that your bad experiences in swimming and perhaps other areas of your life have traumatised you so badly. I am more concerned, however, how badly you want to ruin other people's experiences. Some people want to commit themselves fully to a goal they have set themselves. It may not be your idea of fun but they enjoy it.

It doesn't mean everyone has to understand them.

I personally don't understand your crusade to ruin a wonderful sport which holds such a joy, challenge, life for so many people but there you have it. Maybe I'm not supposed to understand. Maybe you are just something put in our life to do our heads in or maybe we are supposed to break through whatever amazing black bubble you live in and show you the nicer sides of life. As I said I don't understand but I sure as hell amn't going to lose sleep over it. Maybe thats what you need. A good rest!

Have a good Christmas and good luck in 2003 :cheers:

[lane4]

Originally posted by swimmer
And hence i think that what people say about swimming causing them to not know who they are or form an opinion of themselves is COMPLETLY false.

Go Swimmer Go! Yeah baby! :)

I am sorry that your parents aren't more supportive of your sport Swimmer. It sounds like you are really dedicated. Keep up the good work!

By the way, where on earth do you find the time to read and post to this forum!? ;)

[sub24]

My mom and dad are almost TOTALLY against me training! EVERYDAY i have to tell them when its time to go training, and pursuade them to take me, they always say they cant be bothered and stuff, but it is me making them take me.

Personally, as a coach so slightly 'coachingly' biased, I believe that this type of senario is more dangerous to the young minds of the swimming world than this:Bill appears to be saying get in the pool and never get out. Remind me to start a thread asking whether professional athletes should be treated in the same way as any other professional.

Bill is being black and white, the parents are not. Bill is saying do this: "60k per week" or you can not be funded. He has been asked to LEAD the country, and assuming you respect his professional opinion, it should be followed. But that assumption is a biggie because the difference between world class swimming and recreational swimming is huge. The parents are sometimes supportive sometimes not. Very hard to live with. I think Bill is ok with recreational swimming but not on his dime. Fos is not lazy he is saying 'I want to do something different' and Bill is saying 'fine do it, but I'm not funding it'. That IS how professional athletes are treated. "I'm paying you, so go do this plan", if every player on the field did their own thing then there would be chaos. Why pay someone to be National Performance Director if they don't have a clue? Do you think that everyone in Australia just 'happened' to become successful at the same time?

[Pete]

Unfortunately parents not wanting to take their siblings to training is very common in the South. It has been the demise of many swimmer with potential I have coached. Trying to reason or even talk to these parents is difficult. Their lack of enthusiasm and interest leads to disillusionment from the swimmer and their training and performance goes downhill and they drop out.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by sub24
Bill is being black and white, the parents are not. Bill is saying do this: "60k per week" or you can not be funded. He has been asked to LEAD the country, and assuming you respect his professional opinion, it should be followed. But that assumption is a biggie because the difference between world class swimming and recreational swimming is huge. The parents are sometimes supportive sometimes not. Very hard to live with. I think Bill is ok with recreational swimming but not on his dime. Fos is not lazy he is saying 'I want to do something different' and Bill is saying 'fine do it, but I'm not funding it'. That IS how professional athletes are treated. "I'm paying you, so go do this plan", if every player on the field did their own thing then there would be chaos. Why pay someone to be National Performance Director if they don't have a clue? Do you think that everyone in Australia just 'happened' to become successful at the same time?

EXTREMELY well put Sub24! :)

[Katie]

Originally posted by sub24
Bill is being black and white, the parents are not. Bill is saying do this: "60k per week" or you can not be funded.

To be honest, I think Bill's doing some great stuff for British Swimming. However, I think he needs to realise that we don't all have the pool time to do this much training. I'm not just talking about myself here, I know a lot of clubs, especially in the Surrey area, who don't have the pool time to do this much. If all you're looking at is metres, when are you supposed to get quality work in?

[ktcute]

Ok here's my concern, and I doooo know someone, who after leaving the sport was at a complete loss to know what to do with himself, and was gutted by the fact that he didn't achieve at a level that he felt he could have done. He was treated extremely badly by coaches at a club that should have known better, in the days before world class performance programmes etc existed.

I had some pretty negative experiences on the pool side, but if anything has left me bitter, its not that. I gave up swimming far too young to have had the kind of experiences you are implying. My parents were obviously not keen for me to head in the direction of training all the time, and they too were reluctant/forgot to take me, then had great battles with me about not wanting to go when I got disillusioned. I couldn't get a costume, never mind a float or anything else!!! At points I have greatly wanted to chuck myself in a pool, however at this point I have to say I am not sorry I did not spend my a large chunk of my youth pulling myself for hours through a pool.

I'm afraid your parents sound like terribly negative and selfish people, mine were more concerned, and I guess score on the negative, selfish side too (please don't tell them I said so).

However my what bothers me is that some of these parents are reflecting a genuine and negative concern. I'm not sure I do think its right for youngsters, or anyone else to be spending tens of hours in the pool, on top of everything else that they have to do. I can understand the "addiction" and desire for success, and whilst you are involved in can be terribly difficult to take a step back and be objective. However it isn't whilst people are swimming that I think problems may be seen to arise. What do you do when you realise after all that time and effort you are not going to achieve what you hoped for, and when you stop, what do you do with all the energy and effort you put into it in the first place? I wonder if it isn't common for swimmers leaving the sport to feel somewhat lost at the very least.

I have seen results of this, which do as suggested make people incredibly motivated to achieve. This in itself is a great thing, and I think swimming in particular could pat itself on the back and say well done. However I feel we could be leading young people down the road to a truly obsessional attitude, that values achievements above everything else, and makes them somewhat selfish, and rather lonely??? I'm not at all sure thats healthy, and I think swimmers and swimming would benefit itself from having an open mind to this, rather than avoiding it.

Coaches have to justify their existence, we rely on their knowledge, but in order to justify their salaries, we have to have them doing a full time job. It would therefore seem in their interest to "ecourage" people of high ability, who will help them make a name for themselves to spend oodles of time in the pool. You will have to excuse me for not seeing this as particularly selfless behaviour.

If we take a closed minded attitude to debating whether it really is healthy to spend this much time devoted to anything, I think we run the risk of making ourselves look like we are trying to hide or disguise a problem, rather than openly showing it does us no harm.

[Phil Tanner]

Aren't you really arguing against getting seriously involved in ANY sport, just in case it chews you up and spits you out, or there's some horrid, disillusioning experience lurking just round the corner?

[Katie]

KTcute, what I don't understand is it seems to me that you're very set on the idea that being devoted to something is bad! I swim because I love it. If you don't like it, or you don't like having to be disciplined, don't do it! I've probably got the wrong end of the stick here, but it seems that you're complaining about something that's not compulsory.

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
My parents were obviously not keen for me to head in the direction of training all the time

Nobody trains all the time KT, not even the best in the world! ;)

Originally posted by ktcute
I'm not sure I do think its right for youngsters, or anyone else to be spending tens of hours in the pool, on top of everything else that they have to do.

You're not too sure its right but you seem pretty sure it's wrong!
Would you prefer it if participating in healthy exercise was banned or illegal for anything in excess of 1-2 hours per week!?

Originally posted by ktcute
What do you do when you realise after all that time and effort you are not going to achieve what you hoped for...

It's about being the very best that you can be, not about being the best in the history of the human race! I know of no coach in Britain who allows swimmers to think that they will never achieve what they hoped for. Obviously you do and once again, I'm very sorry that you have suffered for this.

Originally posted by ktcute
However I feel we could be leading young people down the road to a truly obsessional attitude, that values achievements above everything else, and makes them somewhat selfish, and rather lonely??? I'm not at all sure thats healthy, and I think swimmers and swimming would benefit itself from having an open mind to this, rather than avoiding it.

Again, I have never come across this in the sport and ALL the coaches that I know, DO NOT do lead swimmers in this way. Nor do I know, or have ever come across, any swimmers who were made into selfish and lonely beings by swimming. It is truely sickening though, for all us swimming enthusiasts, to learn from KT that this is happening/has happened in her part of the world.

Originally posted by ktcute Coaches have to justify their existence, we rely on their knowledge, but in order to justify their salaries, we have to have them doing a full time job.

It is a sad fact that the extremely large majority of swimming coaches in Britain do not get a salary for coaching. Most get nothing at all, some get expenses, a very small minority get paid.

[Pete]

I agree with lane 4. Because I got so much out of my personal swimming career; (my main achievement was swimming in counties) I took up coaching, found I got on well with younger people and became a teacher. I have coached for nearly 25 years and whatever I have been paid for coaching never covered travel, accommodation at faraway meets, meals and clothing.

If swimmers were pressurised into so much training, how come so many of them smile and laugh at training. The myth of training being isolated? It is amazing how much talk, jokes etc. swimmers can get into 20 secs rest between each 100. Swimming friendships often carry on longer than school friendships. I still keep in touch with fellow swimmers and I stopped swimming in about 1977.

[ktcute]

Yup, on the whole I agree actually that most of the swimmers that I have seen since joining Cambridge have seemed to be happy creatures, and on the whole seem to be swimming because they enjoy it. If I didn't think that was the case I would not having anything to do with the place, and I wouldn't hesitate to say so, either.

However I am also pretty convinced that there are clubs in the country where this isn't the case, I certainly experienced plenty of strong arm tactics when I was swimming, and I find it hard to believe that it has been completely eradicated.

My concerns would particularly focus on the top end of the sport, where individuals are particularly talented. I do still wonder what impact doing this much work at a young age may have on at least some people. I certainly don't think that youngsters need their weaknesses and problems exposing in public... I can't believe that will do them any good at all. I would say to do this would certainly be cruel, and the ends would not justify the means, and I suspect the persons responsible would be guilty of "motivating" the athlete for their own ends, not for the athletes.

Anyway, nuff said, here I am obsessing on xmas eve when I should be enjoying post dinner conversations... unfortunately I find I am dealing with a wayward teenagers (he's pretty good actually, just a little spoilt!). I guess we all need our escape hatches heh?

Merry xmas to all, and I hope you enjoy it, and get out of it what you hoped for...

[BigFish]

Looking at who the younger coaches are in Doncaster, I get the impression that the more they achieve as swimmers the more they want to put back into the sport later. Maybe they have become obsessional about swimming over the years (I'm proud to say that I have), but that is surely better than becoming obsessed with drinking, drugs, TV, computer games, or, God forbid, Football!

Isn't one of the big things that Bill Sweatenham is trying to get across, that those who have no desire to be international swimmers shouldn't really be doing more than 8 hours training each week, anyway. Those who do want to excel *need* to do the 60k per week or they will become disillusioned with how little they've achieved.

At the end of the day, to achieve anything at anything (school work, sport, ...), you have to become a little bit obsessed; or at least, most of us do!

[swimmer]

ok i know im not gona b an international, so great hes saying i SHOULDNT be doing more than 8 hrs a week. WELL GREAT rite i am REALLY against him now, who the hell does he think h is, ok so i may not b winnin olmypic medals for him, but HOW THE HELL does he think he has the rite to tell me i cant do more than 8hrs, and hence wont achieve my potential, whatever that may be. My repect for that man is now in to -. i may not achieve HIS goals, but i sure as hell want to achieve MINE and im gona train as much as i can - about 12 hrs a week, so he can go - excuse me, f*&k himself.

[Pete]

Swimmer!
Nobody can say you are not going to make it. Many swimmers have not broken through till in their 20's. You do not have to be NAG Champion x number of years running. James Gibson is a good example of this.

[lane4]

Originally posted by swimmer
ok i know im not gona b an international, so great hes saying i SHOULDNT be doing more than 8 hrs a week. WELL GREAT rite i am REALLY against him now, who the hell does he think h is, ok so i may not b winnin olmypic medals for him, but HOW THE HELL does he think he has the rite to tell me i cant do more than 8hrs, and hence wont achieve my potential, whatever that may be. My repect for that man is now in to -. i may not achieve HIS goals, but i sure as hell want to achieve MINE and im gona train as much as i can - about 12 hrs a week, so he can go - excuse me, f*&k himself.

Swimmer
You misunderstood the point. Bill is saying that if you don't have the DESIRE to be the best there is no point training more than 8 hours a week. If you do have the desire (as you obviously do) then Bill is quite happy for you to train 108 hours a week!

[swimmer]

ops sorry if i missed the point of the thing , oopps excusseee mee! :) i really want to make it and i really hope i am one of those people who makes it in their 20s! - fingers crossed!!

[Pete]

Swimmer
No fingers crossed! Believe in yourself and work hard and see where it takes you. I don't know how old you are but.... between 14 & 16 girls often plateau, many give up because of this or get very negative about their swimming. See it through, if it happens to you and the progress tends to improve as your strength catches up with your growth again.

[ktcute]

Nod... definitely don't give up on yourself... (but allow me to worry about obsessional behaviour ;).

I don't see why you should give up hope right now swimmer, but I also think its important to bear in mind that only a few people out of all those that want to are going to achieve that dream. That doesn't mean you can't be one of them tho. Don't forget as well, that when you have achieved one dream there is often another one waiting just round the corner to get you. And DONT forget to be proud of what you have already achieved... if you don't become an international, that isn't going to spell the end of your life, or the end of your dreams ;).

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
And DONT forget to be proud of what you have already achieved... if you don't become an international, that isn't going to spell the end of your life, or the end of your dreams.

BREAKING NEWS FLASH!
ktcute talks sense!
The magic of Christmas worked again.
;) :D :devil:

[ktcute]

ktcute sits happily under her xmas cloud :)

[Tara]

Originally posted by Pete
Swimmer
No fingers crossed! Believe in yourself and work hard and see where it takes you. I don't know how old you are but.... between 14 & 16 girls often plateau, many give up because of this or get very negative about their swimming. See it through, if it happens to you and the progress tends to improve as your strength catches up with your growth again.

At the age of 15 I was on 1.09 100m free and 1.19 100m back. I'd never swam a 200m in any stroke and never broken 30secs for 50m free! There must be loads of swimmers at that level in this country!
I now (I'm 23) go 26 for 50, 57 for 100 and 2.04 for 200m free. I know I can get faster at these events and have already smashed my 200m IM pb (2.23) and 400m IM this year (5.07). Don't think you can't make it if you haven't by 16!
I have done this on 11 1/2 hrs a week as unfortunately we don't have more time at our club, but hey thats why I am going to Australia on wednesday :D

[swimmer]

WOW!!!!! tara you really do give me hope! :) wow u came on so well! good luck in australia!
yeh pete i'm 16 at the mo, i have been steadily improving, but nothing really major, just a few secs on 200s over the year, and well i've improved 4 secs on my 100fly, but the times still need to drop so im going to keep on working harder and harder as it is allready starting to pay off, slowly but shorly! :) i used to get realllllyyy nervous aswell, buit i've nearlly overcome this now which has helped a lot, thnx guys for all your replies :)