Composite Clubs/Squads

[jaygee]

One of the threads mentioned Composite Clubs. This has been a bone of contention from the days long ago when I was still swimming!
What is the opinion now?
I was in a small club that amalgamated with several others. This way we got a top class coach and the Club went on to become one of the best in the country.
Now, with my own children swimming I see the debate has not gone away?
What are the opinions of coaches and swimmers?
My feelings are smaller clubs are great for bringing swimmers on, but later the composite clubs have more "pull" with councils, sponsers etc .,therefore often have better training facilities and can afford more experienced coaches.
They can streamline their top swimmers where the smaller clubs top squads often have a mixture of swimmers who enjoy competing but will go no further than district and those who are National level. There is a place for both types but debatably not training together. it must be frustrating for both types of swimmers and the coach!! Financially though the pool must be filled!
I am not up to date with how many of these teams work- It seems to vary from area to area.
Any opinions ?:)

[Mac]

There are two separate issues here: one is groups of clubs joining together for the purpose of competing as a single entity mainly in National competitions (eg East Essex, T5, Durham UA); the other is local clubs merging to form one sinlge (larger) club.

On the first point (which has already been mentoned in the other thread) my view is that unless the groupings do actually pool resources (eg know-how, pool time) and train together with some regularity then there is little point and certainly nothing of any consequence is achieved. The only real advantage would be to enable the comined entitle to have more success in relay events. I would be interested to hear ehat those who have had involvement in such groupings think about what they achieve.

As for the second point, my views are mixed. I can see that for the 'top end' swimmer a merger of several local clubs would be a good thing. The overall standard would be increased and the swimmers will inevitably be part of a larger squad. However, for those lower down the scale (of which i was one) i am not so sure - i would have thought that for such swimmers it would be better for tbem to be an important member of a smaller club than a member of the C or D squad of a merged club. For me, i doubt that i would have become involved in coaching if i had been part of such a larger team.

[chris_lamb]

Mac's second point seems to me to be the argument for "Composite Clubs". Most local clubs will have at most a small number of good swimmers. The top swimmers will benefit from having the opporunity to train and compete at a level that a small club cannot hope to offer on its own.

However, a large club covering a fairly large area cannot hope to cater for those swimmers who won't ever be competing at a national level, but do enjoy competitive swimming. IMO, the sport as a whole would lose out if clubs amalgamate to focus on the top swimmers. However, the sport also loses out if the top swimmers are not given the opportunity to fulfill their potential.

Composite Clubs provide the opportunity for clubs to pool resources so that top swimmers can be given the opportunity to train and compete more, while still allowing each club's coach to spend time with the grass roots.

It is important (IMO) to ensure that these clubs give extra opportunties to swimmers, and are not used just to win at the expense of taking the chance to compete from other swimmers.

[ktcute]

I tend to agree that to a certain extent composite clubs are a necessary evil, but perhaps they are one that needs some kind of overseeing/regulation.

Someone has already mentioned coLeeds, and I have a feeling that coBirmingham, and it wouldn't suprise me if coCoventry operate in a similar way. Realistically trying to organise a single club for the whole of Birmingham would be utterly rediculous, but then not having a club that represented Birmingham as a whole would seem equally daft.

In football, cricket etc etc etc small teams compete in small leagues, and big ones in big leagues. We have an organisational, and pool time problem with this in swimming it seems. However its also true that the best swimmers seem to come from these amalgamated clubs. If we compared the numbers of swimmers coming through to the top from these clubs with the numbers coming through from the "little" clubs, surely especially when taking total numbers of swimmers being pooled from into consideration, we have to feel that the big clubs are doing a good job from the "elite of the elite" perspective.

I can't see a fair way to resolve this problem... does anyone else have any good ideas?

[BigFish]

Impossible to put into practice and full of other problems too, but composite clubs could be limited by size of the population they service. For example, a composite club could have a catchment area covering an entire county, but if it was a rural area with a low population density that would probably be equivalent to a high density town/city club.

I'm not saying I like the idea, it's just an option that springs to mind.

[jaygee]

In football, cricket etc etc etc small teams compete in small leagues, and big ones in big leagues.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons those type of sports keep their athletes to an older age. As a sport we must cater for the elite and the social competitor.
There seems to be so much emphasis on the higher levels there is not so many social type of competition. Certainly, in my swimming days there were lots of interclub competitions- possibly too much social emphasis, but we made some great friends and travelled to different areas, including abroad!I suppose cost of bus travel and the fight for and cost of pool time has put paid to these Satarday "friendlies"

We must find a way of keeping our "social" competitve swimmers,with more fun galas. They will be the masters swimmers, officials and parents of the future.

However, I do feel the composite clubs are good for the upper end of the sport. Not only for the swimmers but for younger coaches to "cut their teeth". Too often I have seen young coaches in charge of clubs, some literally just out of swimming. Some it must be said are excellent but many have no idea where to start with young swimmers and aim too high.With no guidence it seems it is ultimatly the swimmer that suffers!
These larger clubs have access to coaching expertise ,sports science,medicine etc which must ultimatly help the swimmer .

[Bazza]

Originally posted by ktcute
However its also true that the best swimmers seem to come from these amalgamated clubs.

I disagree - I think what happens is most of the 'best' swimmers end up at these superclubs, possibly because it is here they can enjoy the best facilities and support. That is a different thing. I certainly would not say most of the best swimmers come from the merged clubs. I think if you researched it you would fiond 90% started at smaller clubs and probably spent most of their age group time at one.

Maybe we are getting confused with 'centres of excellence', for example the university squads at Bath and Loughborough. I think these are a good idea, but they are not allowed to compete in speedo league so why should T5 for example?

[Katie]

Would be a bit difficult for loughborough to compete in speedo as they wouldn't have all the age groups, but I can't see any reason why Bath aren't allowed to compete???

[ktcute]

Ok, so whichever way you look at it... top swimmers do tend to end up at these amalgamated clubs, for exactly the reason that they do have the funding etc.

It is probably more practical for funding and the "survival" of these talents that they are treated in this way, as superlative talents aren't always catered for very well outside of big clubs, I suspect. Centres of excellence are all very well and good, but they do seem to be for very small numbers of the elite. They exist I suspect to give the best of the best opportunities that don't exist for us in a country where swimming is very much a back seat sport.

It may not be fair, but one thing I have learnt over the years, and from reading a bit about highly succesful athletes is that sport really isn't fair. You have to talented and lucky to be a big success, not to mention extremely dedicated to what you do, and I suspect intrinsically love it.

[Deaks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ktcute

"Someone has already mentioned coLeeds, and I have a feeling that coBirmingham, and it wouldn't suprise me if coCoventry operate in a similar way. "

Co Coventry are the only competitive club within the boundaries of the city so we are a single club, not a composite. In terms of the Speedo League Birmingham swimmers compete for their home club eg Perry Beeches, Solihull etc.

We do swim swimmers in our team that have for example come to University, but saying that we do have swimmers who come to Uni but still swim for their home club. We also have swimmers who know train 100% with Coventry after moving from a smaller club within the area but then swim for their local club in the Speedo Leagues eg Grace Callaghan still swims for Leamington Spa. This weakens our overall team, especially when it comes to the National Final, but we feel the swimmers should have the choice to give something back to their original club

[Phil Tanner]

But do Bath not take part in the Speedo League because they aren't allowed to, or because they choose not to?

[ktcute]

In terms of the Speedo League Birmingham swimmers compete for their home club eg Perry Beeches, Solihull etc.

Duh... Solihull is miles away from Birmingham...! And having lived in the area for 15 years, the difference between the richest and poorest areas of Birmingham would have to mean surely that for some kids representing their local club would mean that they would never get to compete.

So presumably this is all down to choice right? So Birmingham presumably a composite club in which you have the right to choose who you compete for, under dual recognition? Presumably if you swim for Leeds you swim for Leeds then???

[Deaks]

The point I was making was that Birmingham do not swim in the Speedo Leagues, despite them being a composite club. Solihull is a feeder club to the Birmingham programme hence why I included it in my previous post. Jo McGurk (National Age Group medalist) is an example of a swimmer who swims for Solihull in Speedo Leagues & County Champs but trains within the Birmingham set up.

As far as I understand the Birmingham programme you have to keep you ties with your original club. You cannot just be a member of the COBirmingham.

I think this is a good way of future swimmers in smaller club programmes getting to see the top swimmers at that time.

[ktcute]

I've just been looking at the coBirmingham web site. You have to be a member of a 'parent' club, and further a member of the cities Advanced Coaching scheme before you can even join the club, which is really a "centre of excellence" all of its own.

Its a shame imo, and a waste. There must be so much young talent that goes to waste simply because we can't get them coaching, or encourage them in the way they need to be encouraged. I did notice however that whilst the swimmers at Brum need to recognise their 'parent' club in local meets, the HAVE TO recognise coB as their club when swimming at National + level. I'm mildly amused by it.

I'm increasingly fed up about the loss of talent in this sport because the parents can't afford or aren't interested in the sport. Phil has mentioned the 'base level' in his posts before, however I wonder how much of a genuine base we have. For all those kids who learn to swim at school they simply aren't going to go on to achieve. And all those swimmers trawling up and down public swimming baths who with a little coaching would be sooo much better. Its such a shame. Its beginning to feel to me like swimming is a "buy a pony" kind of sport. Poor kids, whilst at least in the past, they are attacked for being lazy, you have to think what a terrible disadvantage it is to be born to parents who just aren't interested.

I really think we need some way beyond the "learn to swim" level of encouraging talented youngsters who wouldn't otherwise get a chance, not just providing coaching, but funding and ways of generating interest in the sport.

[swimfizz]

I really think we need some way beyond the "learn to swim" level of encouraging talented youngsters who wouldn't otherwise get a chance, not just providing coaching, but funding and ways of generating interest in the sport.

Hear. Hear!!
There must be so many swimmers out there who never make it past learn to swim due to the cost of Club swimming. It is very much a middle class sport in most areas.
Where club schemes are subsidised by councils this must help break down these barriers.
However, we seem to have the opposite happening where private swim schemes are coming in to many of the larger cities.These although good are expensive and are targeting the middle and upper classes.
In our area a very large percentage of the club swimmers attend private schools.
As a sport we need to look at opening up!

[Phil Tanner]

But how do you "open up"? As Duncan Goodhew said (my paraphrase), "If you haven't got two cars in the family, forget it." It's just a fact of life that there will never be enough pools for swimming to be accessible to everyone who might prove to be good at it if given the chance.

[ktcute]

Ok, so we just give up, accept the fact that kids without a chance should remain that way, and revel in the glory of having opportunity and money?

I know coaches tend to favour the better off swimmers, as these tend to be the more motivated, lower maintenance swimmers, whose parents will help out the club. As athletes and spectators, not to mention funders (all those out there who buy a lottery ticket) I'm not sure we should accept this.

I'm certainly not happy if all the funding available goes to those who can already afford...!

[chris_lamb]

Originally posted by swimfizz

As a sport we need to look at opening up!

But how do we do that?

Swimming is inherrentaly a more expensive sport than some others, simply because hiring a pool is expensive. Most other sports can get away with something as simple as a field - swimming needs a pool. The money has to come from somewhere, if not the swimmers/parents then an external source. Where do we find an external source to subsidise swimming?

[Deaks]

A scheme which we are looking to set up in Coventry, backed by the Local Education Authority, is 'after school clubs' at selected Secondary schools. These would be run by qualified teachers and would be based at extending the school swimming programme.

This would hopefully take swimmers that would only swim with school that have reached the Key Stages and take them forwards.

[ktcute]

Cool... :). Are they going to be expensive, and is there any kind of subsidy or funding available for them?

[Deaks]

Some of the funding is coming from the Government under their investment plans for school sport. A short report was covered in the December issue of "Swimming" (pg 4).

We are still in the early stages at the moment and there is a lot of hurdles to get over but we are optimistic that this is going to work and provide opportunities to kids that would have otherwise missed out.

It won't just be swimming that will be the emphasis, water polo and survival will play a role as well.

[Phil Tanner]

Ok, so we just give up, accept the fact that kids without a chance should remain that way, and revel in the glory of having opportunity and money?

KTCute: I don't know if you find this in the real world as well as on this board, but you seem to have a knack for taking someone else's point, twisting it ever so slightly and then expressing outrage at what is in fact your own spin rather than the original point.

I know coaches tend to favour the better off swimmers, as these tend to be the more motivated, lower maintenance swimmers, whose parents will help out the club. As athletes and spectators, not to mention funders (all those out there who buy a lottery ticket) I'm not sure we should accept this

More grandstanding. Why do you feel it necessary to snipe at people like this? The "parents who help out the club" at whom you sneer in many cases ARE the club. Lose their involvement through this need to parade the chip on your shoulder, and you lose the club for everybody. Leave your club to be run by the parents of its least motivated swimmers and see how long it lasts!

And like it or loathe it, when all is said and done we are talking about clubs promoting a sport which is (for reasons way beyond their control) very expensive for participants. Involvement can do great social good, but it's not an extension of the social services.

[ktcute]

I'm not really attempting to snipe at anybody, just lamenting the reality of the fact that poor kids tend to get few and far between opportunities. Having lived in one of the roughest toughest cities around tends to make you more aware of this kind of thing. I was also, if you like feeling rather sorry for myself at not having got these opportunities myself. Self pity if you like, however also a lesson in humility perhaps?

I don't want to snipe at you, I think I am actually reflecting a real problem, but of course if you don't want to care about it, you don't have to. Your daughter will of course be fine. She has the pony. And if you wish you can teach her that it is not important to worry about those people who don't. Its entirely up to you. Thats a snipe incidentally.

It seems to me though, that the only reason you have given so far for wanting to get a base level of people involved in this sport is to fund those people who already can afford. It seems unfair to me.

Some people care about this problem, some people don't. Let those who do get on with it. For those who don't I guess its your loss. I went to the local comprehensive through choice. Even at a young age I thought selective education was unfair and I refused to have anything to do with it. I don't believe that swimming should be an extension of the social services either, however I do believe in giving people who through no fault of their own don't have a chance, an opportunity. Perhaps you are afraid of the competition, or the taint?

[Bazza]

Deaks, that scheme you mention, whilst improving involvement in the sport (in general) for 11-16 year olds would appear to have very little to offer competitive swimming (children learning to swim or just starting to gain advanced skills are unliekely to achieve much in a competitive environment).

Having said that I wish I'd had an opportunity to swim when I was at school. Better than French. :p

[ktcute]

I still think the scheme is a step in the right direction, and I actually think that is where the big gap lies. Often kids will have just enough lessons to learn to swim, but not enough to get over the gulf between a novice and a strong swimmer. Swimming clubs don't take people who only know how not to drown.

[chris_lamb]

Originally posted by ktcute
I know coaches tend to favour the better off swimmers, as these tend to be the more motivated, lower maintenance swimmers, whose parents will help out the club. As athletes and spectators, not to mention funders (all those out there who buy a lottery ticket) I'm not sure we should accept this.

We should also be careful that in attempts to open the sport up we do not destroy it. However much we might like for the sport to be run by full time professionals, it is not. It is run by volunteers, who are prepared to give up their time. Without the parents of swimmers there will be no competitions for any swimmers to go to, or coaches at training sessions, or committees to run clubs.

[ktcute]

mMMM.....

I'm not a parent, but I am someone who is quite prepared to get involved with the running of a club.

I think sometimes parents can be the most destructive influences on swimming clubs. I don't want them to be put off, but I do want them to see that they are there for everyone, not just to curry favour, and that they are NOT experts when it comes to swimming.

If they feel differently, then I think that the sport would be better off without them. Perhaps we might even see a different kinds of person become involved in the sport. Swimming increasingly looks like it will become a sport run by professionals, and I hope we will see a time when we have to rely on volunteers much less.

[Deaks]

Bazz, we are still in the planning stages at the moment and I hear your thoughts.

It may well be that for the majority of kids it will be a participation route rather than a competitive one but if we can get the criteria right and try and have some of these kids eventually move through into the skills level of the programme in the club then all well and good.

[Phil Tanner]

lamenting the reality of the fact that poor kids tend to get few and far between opportunities

But there will always be people who can't afford certain activities. It's like saying today's Tuesday. It can't be changed. And the attitude that we can't have winners because it's beastly for the losers is what's behind a generation of unfit children and useless wave-machine pools built at the expense of competitive facilities.

One of the best ways to provide opportunities in swimming as things stand - rather than in the world where we'd all like to be, with a pool on every block- is for the broadest range of people to do the maximum they can for their local club.

From your postings you seem too suspicious of coaches in general to be a coach, and I don't get the impression you are involved as a parent. How many hours' work did you put in for your local club/county last year? Or do you prefer just to talk the talk?

[Phil Tanner]

I'm not a parent, but I am someone who is quite prepared to get involved with the running of a club.

I think sometimes parents can be the most destructive influences on swimming clubs. I don't want them to be put off, but I do want them to see that they are there for everyone, not just to curry favour, and that they are NOT experts when it comes to swimming.

If they feel differently, then I think that the sport would be better off without them.

Sorry, I hadn't read this one when I posted my last response. If you are genuine in this belief and not just posturing, you will obviously go along to your club's next AGM and stand for the committee with this as a manifesto. Let us know how you get on.

[ktcute]

Now there is the assumption I can't stand... why the heck do you think that poor kids can't be winners? Its exactly that attitude that I cannot stomach. Bred in the southern counties where no doubt the good swimmers come from.

I not suggesting that we should spread the money around, just that we should give opportunities to other kids who can't have them otherwise. That doesn't seem too criminal to me. You may not like the fact that decreases opportunities for the rich kids who otherwise get all the breaks, but tough luck.

Thanks a lot for the vote of support as a coach. I suspect you don't know anything about it. I'm pretty certain I could make a good one. I believe in kids, I'm not so worried about what other coaches are like or doing, though I can accept I may make myself unpopular by being honest. There does seem to be a worrying trend in encouraging people not to say what they think.

Being English of course you suggest that the best status is the status quo. English people are terribly afraid of change, do anything to avoid it.
For someone who is already successful of course it is in your interest to make sure things remain the same, so that we don't rock the boat so hard you fall out.

Actually I am thinking about taking (intend to take actually) coaching qualifications. I really would like to be able to get involved in helping kids who aren't getting a break, but obviously like swimming from the amount they turn up in their local pool. Of course I am talking about free time. I'm quite used to giving up my time for other people, in fact I enjoy it. With a degree in Biology and another in Cognitive Science, I think I might have a lot I can offer.

I don't see why doing the best thing for swimming has to mean teaching kids who already have the advantages.

[ktcute]

I didn't stand for election, because I don't know enough at the moment, and don't feel well enough established with the club.

I did however go to the agm.

[Steve]

Originally posted by ktcute
I'm not a parent, but I am someone who is quite prepared to get involved with the running of a club.


Why don't you then? The club (like most others) is desparate for more volunteers - speak to the chairman, he's there every Tuesday and Thursday evening :)

[Bootie]

At our club, two seperate schemes are run in tandem.

All kids learn to swim through the swim school and have the opportunity to trial for the competitive club at around age nine.

Obviously the faster and more technically proficient swimmer makes it through the trial to start competing. The swimmers who do not get through the trial or opt out of the competitive side of swimming can remain in the swim school (up to around age 13 or 14).

These kids can still compete in our own galas, all swimmers whether competitive or swim school are put in either "Fins" or "Flippers" teams and then a couple of times a year we all compete together.

The kids from the swim school who are not quite as good as the competition swimmers still get the thrill of racing and yes, their points count. It makes for a good gala where everybodies contribution is appreciated whether you are a "super fast" swimmer or a "slow but sure ,get there in the end" type of swimmer.

The swim school kids also get the opportunity to do the various lifesaving badges as part of their curriculum.

Incidentally I have experience of both worlds, my daughter being a competitive swimmer and my son a swim school member. He may not be the quickest or most technically efficient swimmer but loves it all the same.

[Phil Tanner]

I was going to list the false assumptions about me and my opinions in your posts - starting with being English - but I lost count once it went into double figures. But as I suspected, it seems you are qualiied to denigrate people who do give up their time as volunteers while in fact NOT (as yet at least) giving up any of your own. Oh, you are "intending to", "prepared to". Well, introduce yourself by airing your prejudices right up front as you do here and see how you get on. And in the real world, of course, you won't be able to hide behind a board-name.

As usual, you twist a key point. Where do I say anything about poor kids not being winners, or suggest I wouldn't want them to? YOU are the one who raised the issue of coaches, as you see it, being happier working with kids who put the time in and you yourself are the one who links it loosely to what one might term class. Like it or not, these are the ones who will tend to win.

[ktcute]

Try reading Lance Armstrong's autobiography.

And does the class distinction exist for lack of opportunity or something intrinsic to the people in the respective classes do you believe?

These are my opinions. I have no interest in hiding them, or going along with what someone else believe simply to make them happy.

[Phil Tanner]

So tell me about Lance Armstrong's biography and its relevance to this debate.

[Steve]

Originally posted by ktcute
Swimming increasingly looks like it will become a sport run by professionals, and I hope we will see a time when we have to rely on volunteers much less.

Well this kind of goes against some of your other points; If swimming is to be run more by professionals and less by volunteers, then it will need more money. Where is it going to get this from? Certainly not central government or the lottery. Hence any extra cost would filter down eventually to the swimmers, potentially pricing even more people out of the sport.

[lane4]

Originally posted by Steve Buckley
Well this kind of goes against some of your other points;

What!? KT makes a point which contradicts some of her other points!? Surely not, that is sooooo unlike her!

;) :D :rolleyes: :devil:

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
Now there is the assumption I can't stand... why the heck do you think that poor kids can't be winners?

Snap back to reality KT! Phil never actually said this!!!!!!!! Why do you insist on either (a) not reading people's posts properly, or (b) twisting people's posts into something completely different?????

[lane4]

Originally posted by ktcute
Thanks a lot for the vote of support as a coach. I suspect you don't know anything about it. I'm pretty certain I could make a good one.

KT please please please steer clear of the coaching profession. You can have all the opinions you want and you are welcome to tell as many people as you want what these opinions are. Nobody here wants you to hide your opinions or to ever go along with someone else's in order to make them happy. And nobody here has ever suggested that you should do this.

However, the opinions that you do espouse regarding this wonderful sport of ours are not in anyway congruous with those of a successful coach. And I don't mean successful in terms of results or achievement, rather in terms of the enjoyment, happiness and pleasure you might bring to the swimmer's lives through coaching.

In your own words you are "depressive" and "suicidal". You have stated that swimming can wreck childhood. You think morning training is a serious risk to one's health. You have an obvious disdain for all other coaches currently out there. You regularly contradict yourself. You twist what other people have said, in fact you sometimes quote others as saying things that they never even mentioned. I know for a fact that I'm not the only person on this forum who thinks you are: paranoid, delusional, crazy, bitter about life, in need of serious psychological help - to name just a few of the possible terms to decribe you. And if you have communicated these thoughts to us through your posts here, there is a certainly a possibility the same feelings will come across to the people you coach. Hence, the reason why you should stay out of coaching.

Ask yourself the question: "would I want to be coached by self-confessed suicidal depressive?"

[stella]

Wow. You have a knack of putting others' thoughts in type so eloquently lane 4. Rather outstanding I'd say!
Hear! Hear! Bravo!! :read: :cheers:

[Pete]

I think it is about time people stepped back. We should be supporting each other in the furtherance of swimming. A while ago I used get uptight with other peoples opinions on this site. Now if the posting is not interesting or irrelevent I skip over it. I also ignore misinterpretations because anyone who is reading carefully will realise this if they have followed the previous postings. The last thing we want is Chris pulling the plug on interesting threads, membership or even the site if people are careless in their comments. Life is too short (as I nearly found out recently) for little things getting out of control in the heat of the moment.
Thoughful, careful and accurate points, concise in content when needed are much more readable and informative.

Please let's get back to calm opinions. :) :)

[ktcute]

In your own words you are "depressive" and "suicidal". You have stated that swimming can wreck childhood. You think morning training is a serious risk to one's health. You have an obvious disdain for all other coaches currently out there.
I am NOT/DO NOT

A Suicidal
B Think swimming can wreck your childhood

I have been suicidal. I have a tendency to depression. You know of course know that 10% of the population suffer from depression at some point in their lives. Are we all supposed to avoid the coaching profession? Are there any other professions out there you think I should avoid, and would this be your general advice to anyone who came to you for careers counselling who suffered from a mental illness? You also know that depression is as serious in its importance as schizophrenia. But of course I have no doubt that from your extensive knowledge of mental illness you feel that anybody who has ever suffered from it in there lives should steer well clear of having anything to do with coaching.

You have to remember you don't know the first thing about what I am like irl, TODAY.

The fact that I don't agree with people in this forum, have an opinion, wish to express it, and am not always in tune with the coaching establishment does not make me think I should avoid the profession. I don't really have any intention of doing this professionally at all. I am interested in coaching on a casual basis. Is this again something I should avoid because of a state I was in nearly 10 years ago?

I think you should follow your own advice lane4, and re read my posts.

I have asked some serious questions, some of which fly in the face of received wisdom. So far I don't feel I have received any conclusive replies to some of them. They might be uncomfortable for some coaches, but I don't see why that should prevent me becoming a coach either. In fact I think in an honest profession anyone should be able to ask the question they need, and get knowledgeable answers.

Bill Sweetenham has made his feelings quite clear about what he thinks of the coaching establishment in this country at the current time. At first this made me furious. Now I am beginning to see why.

Is this how you treat parents with knowledge and concerns at your club:

"Oh dear, I don't know how to deal with you, so please don't take up coaching?"

Incidentally had I been suicidal then that would probably have been enough to throw me over the edge. Please don't have anything to do with depressed people, you don't know the first thing about how to deal with them.

But then I forgot, and I quote from a personal message:

"I have deliberately not had anything to do with this over hyped disability sport."

If anyone has anything to be ashamed of in the coaching profession at the moment, I think it may be you.

[ktcute]

Oh and as for Lance Armstrong.

He is from a single parent family with not a lot of money. He was given a break by one or two people on the way. He became a world champion cyclist.

He then contracted testicular cancer, and had effectively no chance of survival. He recovered to win the tour de france.

Its an interesting story. He has lots of problems along the way.

Whats interesting about it is his determination to be the best, and to overcome. Interesting because it highlights the importance of the role of his mother, and interesting because he comes from a background where he would not have had a chance had a few people not given him a break. He was obviously absurdly talented, but also incredibly dedicated. Its one of the most inspiring things I have ever read.

Its worth a read, even if was trying to suggest it as a way to take some of the heat out of the thread ;).

[Phil Tanner]

I don't know if anyone here has been involved in cycling, but I wonder if it might be a sport where raw talent has a better chance of emerging from the wrong side of the tracks, so to speak, than it does in swimming? Because the roads are free and a talented kid - I know this is a gross over-simplification - can literally get on his and her bike, train alone and start to get noticed, without needing the complex infrastructure of an accessible, affordable local pool?

[Bootie]

Cycling can be extremely expensive, have you seen the price of a racing bike these days, from experience everybody wants a bike thats alittle bit more advanced and expensive than the others and costs can escalate as you try to keep up.

As to KT's points re coaching, many of the worlds finest athletes have had coaches that have not conformed to the normal coaching principles and used what the establishment have called unorthodox methods, but which have brought about startling results and world and olympic champions.

Coaching methods are only "right" until something better comes along.