swimming in a storm

[amanda.corndoll]

my session on the forum this morning has been interupted by thunder and lightning cutting out the power and broadband thing.
i was hoping to go to cheltenham lido but remember being told at another lido i couldnt swim in the rain in case of lightning.will ring up and check.
so what haopens if you are swimming the chanel or in a big race or something and a storm brews?
obviously the weather has been checked before hand but wHAT IF a storm sneaked up on you.
do you get fished out?

[Swimaster]

I've swam in the rain lots of times at my parliament hill lido - lovely:-). Once swam in a hail stones shower too:-).
My lido would only be cautious if thunder heard in the distant. It's a stainless steel pool too so out pretty sharpe I guess!

[daveneal]

"15. In the event of deteriorating conditions, the championship referee shall have the authority (which he/she may delegate) to vary the course or to order any swimmer or swimmers from the water and/or declare the race terminated. In such circumstances the allocation of awards shall be determined by the championship committee."

This came from the BLDSA website

[Wildswimmer]

I've swam in the rain lots of times at my parliament hill lido - lovely:-). Once swam in a hail stones shower too:-).
My lido would only be cautious if thunder heard in the distant. It's a stainless steel pool too so out pretty sharpe I guess!

Rather the opposite. Unless lightning actually struck the water itself then your steel-lined pool would be one of the safest places to be during a thunderstorm. When lightning strikes the ground the associated ground current pulse poses a risk of electrocution to both humans and animals with feet in contact with the ground. Parliament Hill's steel lining will act as a Faraday cage, protecting occupants from the effects of any ground pulse.

However given that pool managements' knowledge of high voltage physics may be somewhat sketchy I doubt you'd be able to persuade them to let you stay in the pool during a T-storm.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Leprechaun]

Oh err....Amanda.

Your sesnsible question will set of a storm on the physics of thunder, and more importantly, lightning!

First of all, re races, the BLDSA point is quite right. There's a duty of care to the officals and support boats as well as swimmers.

If the weather did deteriorate in the Channel or a long swim we'd be out well before it got that bad. In fact you could trust the pilots not to go out if it was going to be that bad. Relays will go in worse than solos though.

Lidos will probably clear the pool on the basis that the heavy rainfall probably diminishes the ability to see whats going on in the water and also distracts the lifeguards. Some people have complained when this happened at a London lido (cant recall which) but it seems more or less iin liine with the way they run safety at Lidos.

We have trained through rain in Dover, but if there was any sense of prolonged squall and electrical storms we'd probably get out.

There is of course a whole series of arguments about whether being on the boat is more dangerous than in the water. Lots of electricity theory to be bandied around. I dont think I'd personally like to try to demonstrate how safe it is to be in the water - sea or lake/lido - when there is lightning around, but I'm not going to argue with those who maintain that you could in theory!

[Stevie_k]

I swam outdoors in the rain today and got bloody soaked!:(

[mpfmark]

This was on the Channel Group some time ago, posted by probably the most succesful Pilot of all time..

I have never understood why swimmers are taken out of the water in a lightening storm.
I have asked a lot of people a lot of questions but to date even the experts have not given me an answer.
I do know that lightening will hit a boat and find it's fastest route to the water and I know that boats have been sunk when they have had transducers etc blown out in such strikes. I also know that steel boats are earthed out to the water by the conductivity of the metal.
The question no one can answer is why take a swimmer from the water to place them on a boat which is mush more likely to get struck. The advise to people out in the open is to stay there and not shelter under tress etc that attract the lightening.
Surly you are much more prone to a strike out of the water than in it?
Anyone got the answer?
That's the facts - not just conjecture and speculation.

[Wildswimmer]

Lots of electricity theory to be bandied around. I dont think I'd personally like to try to demonstrate how safe it is to be in the water - sea or lake/lido - when there is lightning around, but I'm not going to argue with those who maintain that you could in theory!

It's not just theory. As mentioned in another thread I have ridden out quite a few T-storms immersed in river and lake (but not the sea) and am still here to tell the tale. In one such incident I was in a lake (Hatchmere) when there was a strike about half a mile away. I didn't feel a thing. With a strike that close, had I been standing on the shore I'd have fetched a significant shock through my feet.

I should point out that I don't deliberately set out to swim during storms nor would I recommend anyone else to do so. However given the behaviour of high-energy electricity I have always considered that should I be caught out in open country, taking to the water is the safest option - so far proven in practice.

Wildswimmer Pete.

[Wildswimmer]

Surly you are much more prone to a strike out of the water than in it?
Anyone got the answer?
That's the facts - not just conjecture and speculation. [/B]

Yes - you are. Quick precis:

a.) While in the water you are usually at the lowest point in the local geography and electricity always finds the point of least resistance.
b.) A submerged human head is roughly hemispherical and least likely to start the corona discharge that forms the ionised channel up to the cloud down which the main discharge travels.
c.) When lightning strikes the ground it causes a massive pulse of current through the ground. This pulse results in potential gradients of several thousand volts per metre which poses a severe risk of electrocution to both humans and animals in contact with the ground.
d.) When submerged in water the energy from a nearby strike will be mostly shunted around the swimmer as water is more conductive than the human body - just make sure your feet don't touch river or lake bottom.
e.) Boaters and anglers are at high risk because fishing rods and masts have pointed ends ideal for initiating corona discharge - sailors know it as "St. Elmo's Fire".

Wildswimmer Pete

[Warm Water]

We have very heavy rain here in Brazil, when its simply a rain storm the outside pool operates normally (why do people get out though?) but when thunder starts the pool is closed in anticipation of lightening. Thats the rule and I wouldnt be surprised if it has to do with insurance etc...

[FlyingBean]

I remember a miserable Sunday morning in 2007. I had stayed over in Dover and looked out to see a torential downpour with the odd bolt of lightning. We were doing back to back 6 hour swims at this point. I remember the sense of relief when I thought that training would be off.

I confidently walked down to the swimmers beach eager to hear the good news only to find that training was infact on, this was one of many excuses that simply don't cutt it!

The point was well made in that you don't see shoals of fish floating after a thunderstorm so if there was a hit, the charge would disperse in a reasonably small area (hopefully not the area I'm in). Furthermore we were surrounded by buildings that would be hit first. So we swam, no one makes you, at the end of the day you do your own risk assessment, and we all survived.

I remember another weekend where there was a dense fog building in the harbour and the briefing on that day scared me too. It was something like "The fog will either burn off or it won't. If it doesn't keep close to shore. If you find yourself unable to see where you're going, stop and listen for the traffic on the road and swim towards it." I kept VERY close to shore that day!!

So in training there aren't any excuses, but like Leppy said on a channel swim the pilots generally know adverse weather is coming. If it changed unexpectedly though safety would come first, second and third and the swimmer would be taken from the water. It's not unusual to swim in fog, with the advent of AIS & GPS the pilots can still track what's going on, although when in the shipping lane you'll always see them with binoculars estimating direction and speed to make sure we don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time - that is more difficult (but not impossible) with fog.

[Swimaster]

Rather the opposite. Unless lightning actually struck the water itself then your steel-lined pool would be one of the safest places to be during a thunderstorm. When lightning strikes the ground the associated ground current pulse poses a risk of electrocution to both humans and animals with feet in contact with the ground. Parliament Hill's steel lining will act as a Faraday cage, protecting occupants from the effects of any ground pulse.

However given that pool managements' knowledge of high voltage physics may be somewhat sketchy I doubt you'd be able to persuade them to let you stay in the pool during a T-storm.

Wildswimmer Pete

*
i'm always learning something new every day on this swim forum:-) you clever lot you!

[Wildswimmer]

Thats the rule and I wouldnt be surprised if it has to do with insurance etc...

I suspect that it's the usual case of "electricity + water = danger" without thinking through what actually happens in a given situation.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Swimaster]

Oh err....Amanda.

Your sesnsible question will set of a storm on the physics of thunder, and more importantly, lightning!

First of all, re races, the BLDSA point is quite right. There's a duty of care to the officals and support boats as well as swimmers.

If the weather did deteriorate in the Channel or a long swim we'd be out well before it got that bad. In fact you could trust the pilots not to go out if it was going to be that bad. Relays will go in worse than solos though.

Lidos will probably clear the pool on the basis that the heavy rainfall probably diminishes the ability to see whats going on in the water and also distracts the lifeguards. Some people have complained when this happened at a London lido (cant recall which) but it seems more or less iin liine with the way they run safety at Lidos.

We have trained through rain in Dover, but if there was any sense of prolonged squall and electrical storms we'd probably get out.

There is of course a whole series of arguments about whether being on the boat is more dangerous than in the water. Lots of electricity theory to be bandied around. I dont think I'd personally like to try to demonstrate how safe it is to be in the water - sea or lake/lido - when there is lightning around, but I'm not going to argue with those who maintain that you could in theory!

*
london fields was the lido in question. Threatened to close the pool if rain turned into a downpour as worried about pool visability for the lifeguards re murky water. But it didn't happen. Rain didn't turn into prolonged downpour. . .

[Wildswimmer]

The point was well made in that you don't see shoals of fish floating after a thunderstorm so if there was a hit, the charge would disperse in a reasonably small area (hopefully not the area I'm in). Furthermore we were surrounded by buildings that would be hit first. So we swam, no one makes you, at the end of the day you do your own risk assessment, and we all survived.


Technically you are at somewhat greater risk of being struck in the open sea. In inland waters there are almost invariably nearby buildings, power pylons, trees, or higher ground that present a far more attractive target. However as far as lightning is concerned the sea is to all intents and purposes, flat. The only high structure is the accompanying boat with its tall, pointy mast having a virtual sign "Strike Here!" Should the boat be struck although the current pulse would rapidly dissipate in highly conductive seawater, would it dissipate fast enough so as not to stun the accompanying swimmer only a matter of a few yards away? Not to mention the consequences for those on the boat.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Leprechaun]

The point was well made in that you don't see shoals of fish floating after a thunderstorm so if there was a hit, the charge would disperse in a reasonably small area (hopefully not the area I'm in). Furthermore we were surrounded by buildings that would be hit first. So we swam, no one makes you, at the end of the day you do your own risk assessment, and we all survived.


Making judgements based on the number of dead fish that come to the surface is highly dependent on there being shoals of said fish in the first place....

Whilst I understand the theories of the "safer in fresh water" vs "bit dodgy in sea water" I make my own risk assessment and just keep out of harms way.



So in training there aren't any excuses, but like Leppy said on a channel swim the pilots generally know adverse weather is coming. If it changed unexpectedly though safety would come first, second and third and the swimmer would be taken from the water. It's not unusual to swim in fog, with the advent of AIS & GPS the pilots can still track what's going on, although when in the shipping lane you'll always see them with binoculars estimating direction and speed to make sure we don't end up in the wrong place at the wrong time - that is more difficult (but not impossible) with fog.

No idea why they need to use binoculars if all their systems are working. AIS gives name/rank/number/speed/tonnage and cargo. But our relay pilot from 2005 got a telescope out on my solo and got a bit jumpy trying to work out whether a ferry was coming at us or heading away. Methinks his AIS receiver was playing up!

[FlyingBean]

No idea why they need to use binoculars if all their systems are working. AIS gives name/rank/number/speed/tonnage and cargo. But our relay pilot from 2005 got a telescope out on my solo and got a bit jumpy trying to work out whether a ferry was coming at us or heading away. Methinks his AIS receiver was playing up!

I imagine that old habits die hard. What they tend to look for is which light they can see - red or green. This tells them the angle more accurately than AIS particularly when they've been asked to give a wide berth and whether the vessel with pass in front or behind.

I've been an observer on some quite close calls - one in particular where I hope the chef wasn't dishing up as there would have been food and plates everywhere - this huge vessel was right on it's side as it moved out of our way a little later than desired!

[FlyingBean]

Technically you are at somewhat greater risk of being struck in the open sea. In inland waters there are almost invariably nearby buildings, power pylons, trees, or higher ground that present a far more attractive target. However as far as lightning is concerned the sea is to all intents and purposes, flat. The only high structure is the accompanying boat with its tall, pointy mast having a virtual sign "Strike Here!" Should the boat be struck although the current pulse would rapidly dissipate in highly conductive seawater, would it dissipate fast enough so as not to stun the accompanying swimmer only a matter of a few yards away? Not to mention the consequences for those on the boat.

Wildswimmer Pete
Wildie - I totally agree when you're talking about the open sea - hence a swim would be aborted on safety grounds if the weather did take an unexpected turn for the worst.

The sessions I was referring to were in Dover harbour which is surrounded on all sides by walls, buildings, boats or poles that are much higher than a swimmer and would be a more direct route for the lightning to find.

[Wildswimmer]

The sessions I was referring to were in Dover harbour which is surrounded on all sides by walls, buildings, boats or poles that are much higher than a swimmer and would be a more direct route for the lightning to find.

Yes - agreed. That's why I mentioned open sea. ;) Your Dover Harbour sessions would carry a similar risk to an inland situation, in other words not very high.

If I remember correctly golfers suffer the highest rate of fatalities caused by lightning. Open water swimming is right down the list.

Wildswimmer Pete

[noeyedear]

If I remember correctly golfers suffer the highest rate of fatalities caused by lightning. Wildswimmer Pete

maybe there is a god then ;-)

[FlyingBean]

Yes - agreed. That's why I mentioned open sea. ;) Your Dover Harbour sessions would carry a similar risk to an inland situation, in other words not very high.

If I remember correctly golfers suffer the highest rate of fatalities caused by lightning. Open water swimming is right down the list.

Wildswimmer Pete
I knew there was a reason why I hated golf!

[amanda.corndoll]

oh you guys beat me to it re. the golf.
physics is not my strong point but thanks for all the interesting ideas. swimming near fishermen the obvious solution. knew they had a purpose.
its surpriseing how much lightning is around.
i re thatched a national trust property and they wanted to put a lightning conductor on it. we all protested and but then they told us how there were hundteds of recorded strikes in the village per year. we did manage to convince thenm not to have it. a relief.

[Swimaster]

Did the weather stop your lido swim Amanda?
Apparently it was pretty rough at Dover today for the channel training. Would of cancelled any relay or solo attempt I hear but ok for shorter (and Dover harbour protected) training swims.
CORRECTION! Hayling had the too bad for relay or solo crossing weather today. If they did them of course. . .
Too many threads i'm reading and getting swim confused with it all! :-) l o l I assume Dover the same though! :-)

[amanda.corndoll]

there was thunder on the way to the lido at chippy so i didnt bother calling in as it was there they wouldnt let me swim last time.