Relays for Age Group/Youth Nationals 2012

[awaldram]

Well that time of year.

Anyone fancy having a punt on the 40 places.??

Looks to me times will be slightly slower than last year to qualify even with the inclusion of the 18 year olds.

[Happi Blue]

I've done it but its not as simple as previous years because you have to take into account the Zonal Championships also. You can swim in both regional & zonal & better the original time but it has to be with the same swimmers so its going to be quite a job to get a completely accurate 40 qualifiers. What I did was to highlight duplicate zonal/regional teams so you can work out where your team came. Still waiting on London to publish the boys 4x100 freestyle though. Luckily for me PL's teams did very well so it wasn't too difficult ;)

[Happi Blue]

Can anyone help with London's boys 4x100 freestyle result?

[BIGBrian]

I've done it but its not as simple as previous years because you have to take into account the Zonal Championships also. You can swim in both regional & zonal & better the original time but it has to be with the same swimmers

Really? You can go to the Nationals with different swimmers to those who qualified you, so why would you need the same swimmers from Zonals to Regionals? I would have thought that as long as the Zonal swimmers were nationally qualified by age at the time of swimming at the Zonals, you would be able to change them for the Regionals (as long as the Regional swimmers were also nationally qualified by age)

Looking at the Regional results, there seem to be a lot of clubs who banked their Zonal times and didn't compete at Regionals, certainly in the 4x200.

[Happi Blue]

Thanks, that's what I've tried but London haven't published the result

[Happi Blue]

Really? You can go to the Nationals with different swimmers to those who qualified you, so why would you need the same swimmers from Zonals to Regionals? I would have thought that as long as the Zonal swimmers were nationally qualified by age at the time of swimming at the Zonals, you would be able to change them for the Regionals (as long as the Regional swimmers were also nationally qualified by age)



In order to be added to the National Team Qualifiers List the following conditions must be complied with:-

1. Teams must swim as age at 26th July 2012.
2. The final qualifier for Youth Teams will be the British Gas ASA Regional Championships and no teams can achieve selection after this date.
3. A swimmer may only compete for one club for the purpose of seeking to qualify a team for the British Gas ASA National Youth Championships 2012.
(N.B. The conditions for the British Gas National Youth Championships require that a swimmer competing in a team event must compete for the same club in their Individual events)
4. Once a team has competed in a qualifying meet the named members of that team may not compete as members of a different team in any other qualifying meet. The same four swimmers may compete as a team, in more than one qualifying meet, with the intention of securing a faster time.
5. Clubs can swim as many teams as they wish at both the Zonal Championships and the Regional Youth Championships but conditions 3&4 above will apply to all teams.
6. Clubs who achieve qualification for the National Youth Championships may swim different swimmers to those who swam in the Zonal/Regional Championships providing that they comply with the conditions of entry for the National Youth Championships.
7. The compilation of the list of qualifying teams shall be the responsibility of the National Entries Administrator.

The decision as to the presentation of medals at the Regional Youth Championships is not affected by these conditions, which merely refer to National Team Selection.

Explanatory Note.
The purpose of these conditions is to ensure that all clubs & swimmers have the same opportunity to qualify for the National Youth Championships and to prevent clubs from mixing swimmers between teams and competitions in order to qualify additional teams for the National Championships without having the required depth of swimmers.


I may have misunderstood it but I'm glad to be overcautious on behalf of my club. I'll happily leave it to the National Entries Administrator to sort out :)

[Linny]

4. Once a team has competed in a qualifying meet the named members of that team may not compete as members of a different team in any other qualifying meet. The same four swimmers may compete as a team, in more than one qualifying meet, with the intention of securing a faster time.........
Explanatory Note.
The purpose of these conditions is to ensure that all clubs & swimmers have the same opportunity to qualify for the National Youth Championships and to prevent clubs from mixing swimmers between teams and competitions in order to qualify additional teams for the National Championships without having the required depth of swimmers. A much needed condition in my opinion but I haven't seen this written down yet clearly you have. Can you let me know where it is from please?

[BIGBrian]

A much needed condition in my opinion but I haven't seen this written down yet clearly you have. Can you let me know where it is from please?

It seems it's originally from Barry Saunders at the ASA Technical Committee.

Not too easy to find directly on the ASA website, but it's reposted on a few sites such as this one

http://www.midlandchampionships.org.uk/entry/zonal12/ASA%20YOUTH%20Teams%20Criteria%202012.pdf

[awaldram]

A much needed condition in my opinion but I haven't seen this written down yet clearly you have. Can you let me know where it is from please?

Looking through the event conditions and infrastructure changes I see nothing to avoid rampant cheating if any club chose to-do so.
http://www.swimming.org/britishswimming/calendar/event/british-gas-asa-national-youth-championships-50m-2012

There does not seem to be any condition forbidding mutli use of a single swimmer across multiple teams at multiple qualifying meets to get extra teams slots at Nationals.

[awaldram]

It seems it's originally from Barry Saunders at the ASA Technical Committee.

Not too easy to find directly on the ASA website, but it's reposted on a few sites such as this one

http://www.midlandchampionships.org.uk/entry/zonal12/ASA%20YOUTH%20Teams%20Criteria%202012.pdf

Is it applicable if it does not appear in the Youth conditions of entry.?

As normally the published and ratified conditions are applicable.

[Linny]

It seems it's originally from Barry Saunders at the ASA Technical Committee.

Not too easy to find directly on the ASA website, but it's reposted on a few sites such as this one

http://www.midlandchampionships.org.uk/entry/zonal12/ASA%20YOUTH%20Teams%20Criteria%202012.pdfOh, I have a vague recollection of seeing it now. I am sure that it will have been disseminated properly at the time although I don't recall any reference or reminder to it at the Scottish National Age Groups. Not that it affected any teams entered this year as far as I can recall.

[swimbar]

Oh, I have a vague recollection of seeing it now. I am sure that it will have been disseminated properly at the time although I don't recall any reference or reminder to it at the Scottish National Age Groups. Not that it affected any teams entered this year as far as I can recall.

It was on the Swimming website for some time.
I am sure that when the list of qualifying teams is published it will be in accordance with the conditions for Youth Team Entries which you have referred to.
There is nothing in the National Youth Conditions to negate this.

'Entry accepted solely from clubs affiliated to the ASA, SASA or WASA as a result of performance in qualifying rounds at the ASA Zonal Championships & ASA Regional Youth Championships (or equivalent Scottish or Welsh
competitions)'

It doesn't say that all performances have to be accepted just that those accepted will be from the qualifying rounds!

[BIGBrian]

Looking through the event conditions and infrastructure changes I see nothing to avoid rampant cheating if any club chose to-do so.
http://www.swimming.org/britishswimming/calendar/event/british-gas-asa-national-youth-championships-50m-2012

There does not seem to be any condition forbidding mutli use of a single swimmer across multiple teams at multiple qualifying meets to get extra teams slots at Nationals.

"Once a team has competed in a qualifying meet the named members of that team may not compete as members of a different team in any other qualifying meet"

Seems to cover it. I like it too.

If Swimclub submits an A team (swimmers 1,2,3,4) and a B team (swimmers 5,6,7,8) at the Zonals, then swimmer 5, for example, can't compete for the A team at the Regionals.

Without that condition, you'd have the possibility that swimmers 1,2,3 and 4 could be Swimclub A at the Zonals, with the others representing Swimclub B, and then 1,2,3 and 4 could be Swimclub B at the Regionals and vice versa.

If Swimclub A's time at the Zonals, and Swimclub B's time at the Regionals are both good enough, then the same 4 swimmers could have qualified two different teams from the same club to the Nationals where, miraculously, swimmers 5,6,7 and 8, who haven't qualified them for anything, could be trotted out as Swimclub B, since there's no requirement at the Nationals to field the same swimmers that qualified you.

It looks like the above regulation prohibits that.

[BIGBrian]

Is it applicable if it does not appear in the Youth conditions of entry.?

As normally the published and ratified conditions are applicable.

I would guess that the Youth Regional conditions of entry only govern what happens at that meet. There's nothing in those conditions that says you have to field the same team members as you did at the Zonals, for example. You can put up any team members that are appropriately age qualified.

But it looks like the Nationals team selection process ought to exclude any team making the cut at the Regionals if they field a swimmer who swam for a different team at the Zonals. But if the team that swam at the Zonals makes the cut, they will be allowed to swim, even though they may have swum different swimmers at the Regionals.

[BIGBrian]

I've done it but its not as simple as previous years because you have to take into account the Zonal Championships also. You can swim in both regional & zonal & better the original time but it has to be with the same swimmers

So looking at it again, I don't believe you have to swim the same swimmers in the Zonals and the Regionals.

You can swim in one team at the Zonals and another team (for the same club) at the Regionals. If the Zonals team qualifies, that team is in, and can then pick and mix who they want for the Nationals. If the Zonals team misses the cut, and the Regionals team makes it, then tough, they miss out, because they fielded an ineligible swimmer who had swum in a different team already.

At the Regionals though, you can nonetheless replace any of your Zonals swimmers with replacements, as long as those replacements didn't swim for any team at the Zonals (maybe because of injury, for example).

So someone who was injured at the Zonals and didn't swim, can take someone's spot in the team for the Regionals, and the Regional team can still qualify even if the Zonals team doesn't.

[Linny]

So looking at it again, I don't believe you have to swim the same swimmers in the Zonals and the Regionals.

You can swim in one team at the Zonals and another team (for the same club) at the Regionals. If the Zonals team qualifies, that team is in, and can then pick and mix who they want for the Nationals. If the Zonals team misses the cut, and the Regionals team makes it, then tough, they miss out, because they fielded an ineligible swimmer who had swum in a different team already.

At the Regionals though, you can nonetheless replace any of your Zonals swimmers with replacements, as long as those replacements didn't swim for any team at the Zonals (maybe because of injury, for example).

So someone who was injured at the Zonals and didn't swim, can take someone's spot in the team for the Regionals, and the Regional team can still qualify even if the Zonals team doesn't.And that is as it should be don't you think?

[BIGBrian]

And that is as it should be don't you think?

Yep. Works for me.

[awaldram]

Now thats impressive

http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012.pdf

[Pink Paraffin]

Now thats impressive

http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012.pdf

What is?

[Apostle]

Thanks, that's what I've tried but London haven't published the result

My understanding is that there is an appeal going on which is why it's not been published.

[BIGBrian]

What is?

I assumed AW was referring to the speed with which the qualifiers list was published so quickly after the Regionals

[Linny]

What is?I think it's really impressive that so many 4 x 200 Mens Free teams can be so much faster than the time need to qualify last year.

Amazing depth in freestyle swimming and should make for some real close racing with only 0.26 seconds separating 14th to 40th place. :-)

[awaldram]

I think it's really impressive that so many 4 x 200 Mens Free teams can be so much faster than the time need to qualify last year.

Amazing depth in freestyle swimming and should make for some real close racing with only 0.26 seconds separating 14th to 40th place. :-)

Gonna have to get myself a new watch......those teams I timed were 3-15 secs slower than this :)

Placings are right though

[BIGBrian]

I think it's really impressive that so many 4 x 200 Mens Free teams can be so much faster than the time need to qualify last year.

Amazing depth in freestyle swimming and should make for some real close racing with only 0.26 seconds separating 14th to 40th place. :-)

Yes, they do seem to have screwed something up in the times there. Our team swam 8:17 to qualify from the Regionals, but they're in at 8:02.

It does look like they've got the right teams in the right order though.....no idea what's happened to the times shown though.

[swimbar]

Yes, they do seem to have screwed something up in the times there. Our team swam 8:17 to qualify from the Regionals, but they're in at 8:02.

It does look like they've got the right teams in the right order though.....no idea what's happened to the times shown though.

Is it April 1st again - or where are you looking?
Certainly not here:- http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012_1.pdf

[BIGBrian]

Is it April 1st again - or where are you looking?
Certainly not here:- http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012_1.pdf

They've corrected their mistake and published an updated list. (Hence the _1 at the end of the file name). If you go to the original version, which is still there at

http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012.pdf

you'll see that the times have been changed ;)

[swimbar]

They've corrected their mistake and published an updated list. (Hence the _1 at the end of the file name). If you go to the original version, which is still there at

http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Qualifying_Youth_Teams_2012.pdf

you'll see that the times have been changed ;)

They presumably had problems converting the original to a pdf and managed to change the times in the process.

[city4nil]

Could you very alert peeps keep your eyes peeled for the age version.

Assumably after the last weekend 9th / 10th June there will be a similar publication for us to ponder.

[BIGBrian]

Could you very alert peeps keep your eyes peeled for the age version.

Assumably after the last weekend 9th / 10th June there will be a similar publication for us to ponder.

SW Region don't finish their Regionals until June 17th so some of the relay events can't be decided until after that. The following weekend is also available for Regional competition, but I don't know of any region that's using it

[chris_lamb]

SW Region don't finish their Regionals until June 17th so some of the relay events can't be decided until after that. The following weekend is also available for Regional competition, but I don't know of any region that's using it

The competition calendar (http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/library/3_ASA_2012-2016-Revision_18-16th_March_2012.pdf) allows only two weekends for Regional Age Groups:

2/3 3/4 only ASA Regional Age Group Champs
9/10 3/4 only ASA Regional Age Group Champs

Variations are only allow where essential.

[BIGBrian]

Seems to be a change from previous years where all of June was allocated to Regionals, if I recall?

Doesn't alter the fact though that SW region don't finish theirs until 17th June, so the relays won't be finalised until after that. It's only the 800 relays that weekend, so the others can be worked out, but the official list won't go out until they're all finished

[swimbar]

Seems to be a change from previous years where all of June was allocated to Regionals, if I recall?

Doesn't alter the fact though that SW region don't finish theirs until 17th June, so the relays won't be finalised until after that. It's only the 800 relays that weekend, so the others can be worked out, but the official list won't go out until they're all finished

Only ever been first two weekends in June allocated for Regional Age Groups with an exception for the South West due to holiday traffic problems I believe.

[BIGBrian]

Looking at the boys 4 x 100 relay from the Age Group results, there's a dead heat around 31st place so far with Warrender and Killerwhales both at 4:08.76 with three regions left to swim.

What's the mechanism in place if they both end up tied 40th after they've all swum? A swim off between a club in Scotland and one in Essex isn't really an option, and if they admit 41 teams they need an extra heat because of one team.

[Analyst]

Looking at the boys 4 x 100 relay from the Age Group results, there's a dead heat around 31st place so far with Warrender and Killerwhales both at 4:08.76 with three regions left to swim.

What's the mechanism in place if they both end up tied 40th after they've all swum? A swim off between a club in Scotland and one in Essex isn't really an option, and if they admit 41 teams they need an extra heat because of one team.

I don't know the answer but I don't think it's going to be an issue anyway. I reckon the 40th time is going to be 4.05 to 4.06. There are already 25 or so faster than 4.05.50 and Midlands & South West could get a dozen between them within this time so with North West as well I can't see anyone over 4.06 having a chance. Better idea tomorrow after Midlands & North West have reported in.

[BIGBrian]

I don't know the answer but I don't think it's going to be an issue anyway. I reckon the 40th time is going to be 4.05 to 4.06. There are already 25 or so faster than 4.05.50 and Midlands & South West could get a dozen between them within this time so with North West as well I can't see anyone over 4.06 having a chance. Better idea tomorrow after Midlands & North West have reported in.

So 3:54 is a shoo in :beer:

[Analyst]

So 3:54 is a shoo in :beer:


Er, yes! Would have qualified you about 5th last year (& currently in 3rd)! 40th last year was 4.05.03.

[BIGBrian]

I'm expecting Plymouth and Millfield to have probably 2 teams each in the 3:40 to 3:55 range...

Our 4x200 team is 8th at the moment too, but only 2 regions to go in that one. I doubt there are 32 teams left to compete, let alone beat the time!

And our Medley boys are going to break 4:20 (it says here) :beer:

[Analyst]

I'm expecting Plymouth and Millfield to have probably 2 teams each in the 3:40 to 3:55 range...

Our 4x200 team is 8th at the moment too, but there are still 3 regions to go in that one.

And our Medley boys are going to break 4:20 (it says here) :beer:

Plymouth could get 2 teams to Nationals in 4x100, though I would think marginal on their B team, but not at all sure Millfield have the same depth of 14/u. Reckon you're pretty safe at 8th on 4x200.

[BIGBrian]

I don't know the answer but I don't think it's going to be an issue anyway. I reckon the 40th time is going to be 4.05 to 4.06. There are already 25 or so faster than 4.05.50 and Midlands & South West could get a dozen between them within this time so with North West as well I can't see anyone over 4.06 having a chance. Better idea tomorrow after Midlands & North West have reported in.

If it does get down to the 4:05s, then Guildford at 4:05.40 could edge Sunderland at 4:05.41 by 1/100th of a second.

[Analyst]

:thumb::thumb:If it does get down to the 4:05s, then Guildford at 4:05.40 could edge Sunderland at 4:05.41 by 1/100th of a second.

Could be so glad I didn't cut son's fingernails! :thumb:

[BIGBrian]

:thumb::thumb:

Could be so glad I didn't cut son's fingernails! :thumb:

Looks like its going to be tight there.

All of the regions except Western have now swum their 4x100 boys free and I make Guildford 36th at 4:05.40. Derby B are 40th at 4:05.95, so they'll surely drop out when Western run theirs. Question is, how many teams can Western region get in under 4:05.40?

There are 13 teams so far under 4:00.00, with Hatfield currently top of the tree at 3:52.41, but I would expect that to be beaten too.

[BIGBrian]

The 4 x 200s are all in now too, except for West again, and East as well.

Cut off at the moment is Wandsworth at 9:04.41. There are 35 teams already under 9 mins, so it looks like anything over that time may not make it.

[Analyst]

Anyone managed to get access to this afternoons East results yet?

[BIGBrian]

Seems to be a technical hitch there. Nothing from this afternoon's session at all yet.

Unless they're uploading at the end of the session?

[Analyst]

Seems to be a technical hitch there. Nothing from this afternoon's session at all yet.

Unless they're uploading at the end of the session?

They seem to have found all the individual results for that session now but not the relays.

[BIGBrian]

They seem to have found all the individual results for that session now but not the relays.

Relays are there now too

[BIGBrian]

So the 4x100 Medley relay (boys again)....

Current 40th place cut off is Ealing B at 4:44.76. Might have to get close to 4:35 to get through. Co Liverpool are 26th at 4:34.68, but there are 3 pretty strong regions still left to swim (SE, W and NE), and it gets pretty tight after Liverpool, with another 10 teams still below 4:40

[taxi service]

Glad we all seem to agree so far.. wonder how many of us there are with all the results on spreadsheets..
I have a small question re City of Sunderland, who swum in the Scottish Champs as well as the NE Regionals.
It has to be the same team swimming in both to qualify, doesn't it?
Notice they swum in the Scottish Champs as Sunderland and in the NE Champs as Sunderland A and B. Suppose I shall have to check the swimmers' names.

[BIGBrian]

Glad we all seem to agree so far.. wonder how many of us there are with all the results on spreadsheets..
I have a small question re City of Sunderland, who swum in the Scottish Champs as well as the NE Regionals.
It has to be the same team swimming in both to qualify, doesn't it?

I believe that was the case for the Youth teams using the Zonals and Regionals as two qualifying competitions, which was only introduced as an option this year for the first time. Not sure whether it applies to a team using the Regionals and either the Welsh/Scottish nationals as alternative options.

[city4nil]

I believe that was the case for the Youth teams using the Zonals and Regionals as two qualifying competitions, which was only introduced as an option this year for the first time. Not sure whether it applies to a team using the Regionals and either the Welsh/Scottish nationals as alternative options.

So folk will read those rules and bend over backwards to comply and the majority with ignore them and plead ignorance just like in the arena league - the fact that we are all unsure of exactly what the rules are what chance have the coaches got ! Is it available in big print somewhere.

[swimbar]

I believe that was the case for the Youth teams using the Zonals and Regionals as two qualifying competitions, which was only introduced as an option this year for the first time. Not sure whether it applies to a team using the Regionals and either the Welsh/Scottish nationals as alternative options.

I think it only applied to Youth Teams.

[BIGBrian]

I think it only applied to Youth Teams.

There weren't any Age Group relays at the Zonals anyway so it couldn't have applied. The issue is whether the rules apply in the same way at the SNAGS/Wales qualifying competitions as they did for the Zonals. I'm not convinced they do, and in any case, I don't think Sunderland have done anything against those rules anyway.

Looking at the boys teams, Sunderland didn't enter the 4x200 at the SNAGS and the medley relay hasn't been swum in the NE region yet, so the only point of comparison at the moment is the 4x100 free.

Only 3 of the 4 swimmers from the SNAGS swam in the NE Regionals, where the team swam a faster time. The time from the SNAGS is already outside the top 40, and the time from the NE Regionals is currently 37th with the West left to swim, so they probably won't qualify anyway.

But even if they do, since the swimmer who came in for them in the Regionals hadn't swum for another team at the SNAGS, they were entitled to swim him. Haven't looked at the girls' teams, though.

[awaldram]

I'm expecting Plymouth and Millfield to have probably 2 teams each in the 3:40 to 3:55 range...

Our 4x200 team is 8th at the moment too, but only 2 regions to go in that one. I doubt there are 32 teams left to compete, let alone beat the time!

And our Medley boys are going to break 4:20 (it says here) :beer:

Swimming out of position out of stroke and carrying injuries if those boys hit 4:20 I'll have to doff my hat to em. :)

Mind you I can guarantee they'll give 100% and they surprised in the 4X1 so who knows, excitement mounts .

You planing on coming to play ?

[BIGBrian]

Swimming out of position out of stroke and carrying injuries if those boys hit 4:20 I'll have to doff my hat to em. :)

Mind you I can guarantee they'll give 100% and they surprised in the 4X1 so who knows, excitement mounts .

You planing on coming to play ?

I might if it was on the Sunday, but can't do Saturday. Might come Sunday anyway, but bearing in mind the last time I went to K2 I ended up coming home in an AA recovery vehicle towing my car, I'm not keen to repeat the experience!

[city4nil]

When will all the age teams conclude? Is it next weekend?

[BIGBrian]

When will all the age teams conclude? Is it next weekend?

West aren't doing their 4x200 team event until 16th

[junior statto]

The 4 x 200s are all in now too, except for West again, and East as well.

Cut off at the moment is Wandsworth at 9:04.41. There are 35 teams already under 9 mins, so it looks like anything over that time may not make it.

I'm probably another one maintaining a spreadsheet for the Boys Age Groups!!

BB would you mind PM'ing me with your spreadsheets just to validate my effort; I particularly interested in 4x200 - i wonder why!

[BIGBrian]

I'm probably another one maintaining a spreadsheet for the Boys Age Groups!!

BB would you mind PM'ing me with your spreadsheets just to validate my effort; I particularly interested in 4x200 - i wonder why!

I don't think you need to worry about the 4x200....your lot are still top of the shop (by more than 6 seconds) with only West and East left to go.

[BIGBrian]

I'm probably another one maintaining a spreadsheet for the Boys Age Groups!!

BB would you mind PM'ing me with your spreadsheets just to validate my effort; I particularly interested in 4x200 - i wonder why!

Seems you can't send attachments in a PM. Or an xls file at all (invalid file format). If you want to PM me your e-mail address I'll send it to you.

[comeondarlo]

I've PMed you

[BIGBrian]

I've PMed you

You have mail

[BIGBrian]

I'm probably another one maintaining a spreadsheet for the Boys Age Groups!!

BB would you mind PM'ing me with your spreadsheets just to validate my effort; I particularly interested in 4x200 - i wonder why!

You also have mail

[comeondarlo]

You have mail

Thanks Brian

[Analyst]

Has anyone seen an 'accepted entries' list for the south west to get some idea of teams/times entered?

[noeyedear]

Has anyone seen an 'accepted entries' list for the south west to get some idea of teams/times entered?

Have stuck the full entry list here for you to extract the data from :-

http://stivesbay-sc.org/docs/swasa_age_groups.docx

I know that one entry will be a fair bit slower than the entry time as someone has dropped out...

[Analyst]

Have stuck the full entry list here for you to extract the data from :-

http://stivesbay-sc.org/docs/swasa_age_groups.docx

I know that one entry will be a fair bit slower than the entry time as someone has dropped out...


You're a star (I assume these are sc entry times?)

[Analyst]

I know that one entry will be a fair bit slower than the entry time as someone has dropped out...[/QUOTE]

Can you reveal who?

[BIGBrian]

Have stuck the full entry list here for you to extract the data from :-

http://stivesbay-sc.org/docs/swasa_age_groups.docx

I know that one entry will be a fair bit slower than the entry time as someone has dropped out...

Bethnal Green in the West???

Interesting that Poole seem to have entered girls in all events, including A and B teams but no boys teams in anything. Taunton Deane have also got girls A, B, C, D, and E teams!

West is the only region left to swim in the boys 4 x 100 free, and by my reckoning there are 13 teams entered there, so everyone down to 27th at least in the current standings is safe. So any team with a time better than 4:02.06 is already through, and slower than that may make it too, depending on how many teams from West beat that time.

[noeyedear]

You're a star (I assume these are sc entry times?)

yep

[noeyedear]

I know that one entry will be a fair bit slower than the entry time as someone has dropped out...

Can you reveal who?[/QUOTE]

its just one swimmer from a team but he was the fastest, I don't think it would have made a difference on entries to nationals tho.

[Analyst]

OK so updates after today. I reckon East Invicta are 40th for medley relay on 4:35.88 with only NE left to swim tomorrow. Cut off will probably be about 4.34.00?

[BIGBrian]

OK so updates after today. I reckon East Invicta are 40th for medley relay on 4:35.88 with only NE left to swim tomorrow. Cut off will probably be about 4.34.00?

I've got EIE at 41st with Cambridge at 4:35.48 in 40th. Easy to get a typo in there somewhere though!

SE today (including gold for the mighty Bluefins again!) and NW last week both had 8 teams faster than 4:34, but I can't see NE doing that too. There are 6 teams in the 4:34s so some of them should make it, and some won't.

[junior statto]

OK so updates after today. I reckon East Invicta are 40th for medley relay on 4:35.88 with only NE left to swim tomorrow. Cut off will probably be about 4.34.00?

I make Cambridge in 40th place with 4.35.48 and East Invicata Excel 41st in 4.35.88

[BIGBrian]

i make cambridge in 40th place with 4.35.48 and east invicata excel 41st in 4.35.88

snap!

[junior statto]

I've got EIE at 41st with Cambridge at 4:35.48 in 40th. Easy to get a typo in there somewhere though!

SE today (including gold for the mighty Bluefins again!) and NW last week both had 8 teams faster than 4:34, but I can't see NE doing that too. There are 6 teams in the 4:34s so some of them should make it, and some won't.

I agree with you; our posts almost posted simultaneously!

Good results for the Bluefins and a very competitive last heat; not much between the top 5. However, the 4x100IM looks very competitive at the top end; neither Bluefins or Thanet in the Top 10 unlike the 4x100 & 4x200 Free

[Analyst]

I stand corrected. Got Cambridge completely wrong! Looking forward to the West 4 x100 tomorrow.

[awaldram]

Swimming out of position out of stroke and carrying injuries if those boys hit 4:20 I'll have to doff my hat to em. :)

Mind you I can guarantee they'll give 100% and they surprised in the 4X1 so who knows, excitement mounts .

You planing on coming to play ?

Think I ripped my throat out... Tail end chase is so exciting :)

Was wrong on 100% think the boys put in 110%

[BIGBrian]

Think I ripped my throat out... Tail end chase is so exciting :)

Was wrong on 100% think the boys put in 110%

Outstanding swimming

[Analyst]

Do South West post live or at the end of a session? Would love to know the boys 4x 100 free results before we go to K2.

[awaldram]

Do South West post live or at the end of a session? Would love to know the boys 4x 100 free results before we go to K2.

http://www.swimwest.org/compsec/results/2012/AG2012/index.htm
PL 3:48.42
Bounrnemouth 3:56.70
Millfield 3:59.39
PL 'B' 4:03.34

[BIGBrian]

http://www.swimwest.org/compsec/results/2012/AG2012/index.htm
PL 3:48.42
Bounrnemouth 3:56.70
Millfield 3:59.39
PL 'B' 4:03.34

So with all regions having swum their 4x100 free boys now, it looks like the cut off is Preston at 4:04.89 with Derventio Excel and Guildford City A as reserves.

All the 4 x100 boys medleys are done now too. Look like the cut off there is Carnegie at 4:34.17. Reserves should be Stourbridge and Croydon Amphibians A

So the only one left now is the 4x200 with only South West left to swim it next Saturday. Currently anyone outside Redbridge at 9:01.53 is already out, but in reality, its probably going to take sub 9 mins to make it.

[comeondarlo]

From the East.............

4x200 Free Boys

Hatfield 8.22.37
CoP 8.34.43
Cambridge 8.54.00
Mid Beds 9.27.95
Dereham 9.35.49

[BIGBrian]

I agree with you; our posts almost posted simultaneously!

Good results for the Bluefins and a very competitive last heat; not much between the top 5. However, the 4x100IM looks very competitive at the top end; neither Bluefins or Thanet in the Top 10 unlike the 4x100 & 4x200 Free

Speaking of Thanet.......16:33 for 1500 free?? At 12 years old??? Only Matthew Johnson's ever gone faster at that age. When there's a minute between gold and silver, and another minute back to bronze, that's pretty special swimming.

Take a bow, Jamie O'Connor

[junior statto]

Speaking of Thanet.......16:33 for 1500 free?? At 12 years old??? Only Matthew Johnson's ever gone faster at that age. When there's a minute between gold and silver, and another minute back to bronze, that's pretty special swimming.

Take a bow, Jamie O'Connor

I think he wanted to beat Matthew Johnson, just 3 seconds shy. Jamie is a beast over that distance - the splits are quite remarkable.

Thanet now relegated to 2nd in the 4x200 with probably only Plymouth capable off going faster with a 8.18 SC entry time. Will be interesting to see how they do LC.

This looks like it could be tasty race at Nationals especially with a different make-up of splits.

[BIGBrian]

I think he wanted to beat Matthew Johnson, just 3 seconds shy. Jamie is a beast over that distance - the splits are quite remarkable.

And how. His 200 and 400 splits in the 1500 would have won gold in the individual events (if he hadn't already won them himself anyway)

Thanet now relegated to 2nd in the 4x200 with probably only Plymouth capable off going faster with a 8.18 SC entry time. Will be interesting to see how they do LC.

This looks like it could be tasty race at Nationals especially with a different make-up of splits.

Bring it on!

[comeondarlo]

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swimming.org%2Fasa%2Fcale ndar%2Fevent%2Fbritish-gas-asa-national-age-group-championships-50m-2012&h=cAQH2u7JQAQGxPo-ojO3JiHZjR_MtH3rZAKBPRlXjfEiv9w

Towards the bottom of the page

[Noswimdad]

Here's the direct link (http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Consolidated_Age_Teams_2012.pdf). 4x200's to come after this weekend.

[junior statto]

And how. His 200 and 400 splits in the 1500 would have won gold in the individual events (if he hadn't already won them himself anyway)

To put the splits in perspective; his 200m split would have been good enough for 5th place in 12-year-old National Age Group Finals last year and his 400m split would have been good enough for Bronze and ONLY 0.16 off Gold!

[BIGBrian]

So with all the boys 4 x 200s done now, Hatfield are top of the tree, just ahead of Plymouth A (by 0.14 secs)

Cut off is Taunton Deane A at 8:57.70 with Nuneaton A and Ealing A as reserves.

[taxi service]

Official relay teams now published.
http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Consolidated_Age_Teams_2012.pdf

[comeondarlo]

Official relay teams now published.
http://www.swimming.org/assets/uploads/events/Consolidated_Age_Teams_2012.pdf

Very interesting.

I'm surprised Barnet did not enter, their boys would have made a more than useful relay team.

[city4nil]

Is there a published 'easy to understand' ( will send to squad coach ) version of the team substitution allowed not allowed rules for this years team events?

I personally think the substitution of swimmers is going to be pretty difficult to police, should any coach be mean spirited enough to actually try it.

[BIGBrian]

Is there a published 'easy to understand' ( will send to squad coach ) version of the team substitution allowed not allowed rules for this years team events?

I personally think the substitution of swimmers is going to be pretty difficult to police, should any coach be mean spirited enough to actually try it.

Are there any new rules regarding team substitutions this year, now that qualifying has finished? There was an additional regulation covering the Youth qualifying when they added the Zonals as an additional qualifying event, in that you couldn't swim for one team in the Regionals if you'd already swum for a different team at the Zonals. But now that the qualifying team list has been published, I believe the teams can be completely changed if they want to be, (as long, obviously, as the new team swimmers are age qualified.)

So, in the boys 4 x 200 free, for example, Plymouth could now put the boys who qualified their A team into their B team, and vice versa. I think. I'm happy to be corrected.

I still don't believe that that regulation that was introduced re the Zonals applies to other qualifying competitions though. So, following the trend for using colours rather than A and B, an English club could send 4 swimmers to, say, the Scottish Nationals and call the team Swimclub Orange, and then put the same 4 swimmers up at their own Regionals and call them Swimclub Purple, and if the times are good enough, Swimclub could send both an Orange and a Purple team to Sheffield, with one of them populated with swimmers who had never swum in either of the qualifying events.

Not saying this should be allowed - clearly it shouldn't - but I'm not sure there's anything in place to prevent it.

[swimbar]

I still don't believe that that regulation that was introduced re the Zonals applies to other qualifying competitions though. So, following the trend for using colours rather than A and B, an English club could send 4 swimmers to, say, the Scottish Nationals and call the team Swimclub Orange, and then put the same 4 swimmers up at their own Regionals and call them Swimclub Purple, and if the times are good enough, Swimclub could send both an Orange and a Purple team to Sheffield, with one of them populated with swimmers who had never swum in either of the qualifying events.

Not saying this should be allowed - clearly it shouldn't - but I'm not sure there's anything in place to prevent it.

I can't see any evidence that this has happened. Presumably you can?

[Analyst]

But now that the qualifying team list has been published, I believe the teams can be completely changed if they want to be, (as long, obviously, as the new team swimmers are age qualified.)

No reason I can see why they shouldn't? It happens at the Olympics. It might be a moral issue whether someone who's swum in the team to qualify should be dropped in favour of someone else but that's up to each club to decide for themselves.

I still don't believe that that regulation that was introduced re the Zonals applies to other qualifying competitions though. So, following the trend for using colours rather than A and B, an English club could send 4 swimmers to, say, the Scottish Nationals and call the team Swimclub Orange, and then put the same 4 swimmers up at their own Regionals and call them Swimclub Purple, and if the times are good enough, Swimclub could send both an Orange and a Purple team to Sheffield, with one of them populated with swimmers who had never swum in either of the qualifying events.

Not saying this should be allowed - clearly it shouldn't - but I'm not sure there's anything in place to prevent it.

Maybe the answer to this potential issue is to say that clubs can only have more than one team qualifying if they all qualify at the same qualifying competition?

[BIGBrian]

I can't see any evidence that this has happened. Presumably you can?

What makes you think that? I'm not suggesting at all that it's happened, just observing that I don't know of any mechanism in place that would prevent it.

Something like "No swimmer may swim in a team if they've already competed for a different team in any other Nationals team qualifying competition" included in the Promoters' Conditions for all the Regional championships would do it.

It might be a solution without a problem, but on the other hand, when the Zonals were added as a qualifying competition, someone felt strongly enough about it to go to the trouble of specifically introducing a condition to that effect

[BIGBrian]

No reason I can see why they shouldn't? It happens at the Olympics. It might be a moral issue whether someone who's swum in the team to qualify should be dropped in favour of someone else but that's up to each club to decide for themselves.

Absolutely. No problem with that at all. We actually swam one of our swimmers in the Regionals knowing that he would be unavailable for the Nationals and would have to be replaced (rather than dropped) because of a prior commitment, but as it happens, he's now changed his plans anyway and looks like he will swim.

Maybe the answer to this potential issue is to say that clubs can only have more than one team qualifying if they all qualify at the same qualifying competition?

Or, as above, just tell them they can't swim for two teams in two different qualifying competitions.

The nuclear option is to go down the Arena League route as they do for the virtual gala and not allow two teams from the same club to qualify.

[awaldram]

Absolutely. No problem with that at all. We actually swam one of our swimmers in the Regionals knowing that he would be unavailable for the Nationals and would have to be replaced (rather than dropped) because of a prior commitment, but as it happens, he's now changed his plans anyway and looks like he will swim..
Yep that was a big boost for the team.


Or, as above, just tell them they can't swim for two teams in two different qualifying competitions.

Juts a case of cleaning up and clarifying the rules.

[Linny]

In order to be added to the National Team Qualifiers List the following conditions must be complied with:-

1. Teams must swim as age at 26th July 2012.
2. The final qualifier for Youth Teams will be the British Gas ASA Regional Championships and no teams can achieve selection after this date.
3. A swimmer may only compete for one club for the purpose of seeking to qualify a team for the British Gas ASA National Youth Championships 2012.
(N.B. The conditions for the British Gas National Youth Championships require that a swimmer competing in a team event must compete for the same club in their Individual events)
4. Once a team has competed in a qualifying meet the named members of that team may not compete as members of a different team in any other qualifying meet. The same four swimmers may compete as a team, in more than one qualifying meet, with the intention of securing a faster time.
5. Clubs can swim as many teams as they wish at both the Zonal Championships and the Regional Youth Championships but conditions 3&4 above will apply to all teams.
6. Clubs who achieve qualification for the National Youth Championships may swim different swimmers to those who swam in the Zonal/Regional Championships providing that they comply with the conditions of entry for the National Youth Championships.
7. The compilation of the list of qualifying teams shall be the responsibility of the National Entries Administrator.

The decision as to the presentation of medals at the Regional Youth Championships is not affected by these conditions, which merely refer to National Team Selection.

Explanatory Note.
The purpose of these conditions is to ensure that all clubs & swimmers have the same opportunity to qualify for the National Youth Championships and to prevent clubs from mixing swimmers between teams and competitions in order to qualify additional teams for the National Championships without having the required depth of swimmers.


I may have misunderstood it but I'm glad to be overcautious on behalf of my club. I'll happily leave it to the National Entries Administrator to sort out :)Are the conditions the same this year please? (dates excepted of course...)

[chris_lamb]

Are the conditions the same this year please? (dates excepted of course...)

There were no relays at the zonal meets this year so the conditions must be different.

[Linny]

There were no relays at the zonal meets this year so the conditions must be different.Where are they to be found or are these the conditions for the relays in their entirety?4.0 Team Events
[a]. Entry accepted solely from clubs affiliated to the ASA, SASA or WASA as a result of performance in qualifying rounds at the ASA Regional Youth Championships (or equivalent Scottish or Welsh competitions). The ASA Regional Youth Championships shall be the final qualifier for all Youth Team Events.
[b] The fastest 40 teams in each event will be accepted irrespective of English Region, Scotland or Wales. In the event of equal times being submitted for the final available place, a ballot will determine the qualifying team. The names of 2 reserve teams will be published. (Team Entry Fee £18.75)
[d] Clubs must confirm their invitation to compete. Failure to do so may result in their invitation being withdrawn.
Entry confirmation will be by means of an online system. Payment must be made for all team entries at the time of entry via the online system.

[city4nil]

NW regional team conditions 2013:

5.5 Teams events for both boys and girls shall consist of swimmers in the 15-18 years
age groups. (See also paragraphs 3.4 to 3.8 below)
5.6 Teams events for both boys and girls shall be:
• 4x100m Freestyle team
• 4x100m Medley team
• 4x200m Freestyle team
All teams events shall be swum as HDW.


Teams
3.4 Team events shall be open to all clubs affiliated to the ASANWR.
3.5 All teams shall consist of four members
3.6 A swimmer entered in the name of one club in the individual events may not
compete in the name of another club in the teams events.
3.7 Clubs may enter one or more teams, but members shall swim for one team only.
3.8 The team events form part of the qualifying round for entry into the ASA National
Youth Championships. As such, swimmers must be aged 15 to 18 on August 4th
2013.

We rarely compete in this to the full at youth for reason, but I think the fact that the club age group coach managed to get a team through to every catagory at age last year may have caused a re-think, it is really almost a matter of entering for a strong club. Winning however that is indeed a toughie.

[swimbar]

Where are they to be found or are these the conditions for the relays in their entirety?

Seems fairly simple straightforward to me!!

[Linny]

Seems fairly simple straightforward to me!!It is and the reason I ask every year and have a little niggle is that there is nothing to stop a swimmer, or even a group of swimmers, swimming for their first claim club as a member (members) of a team that qualifies and also in their second claim club as a member (members) of a team that qualifies (provided the qualification takes place on different days), despite the fact that when it comes to the Championships they can clearly only swim in one team.

[city4nil]

It is and the reason I ask every year and have a little niggle is that there is nothing to stop a swimmer, or even a group of swimmers, swimming for their first claim club as a member (members) of a team that qualifies and also in their second claim club as a member (members) of a team that qualifies (provided the qualification takes place on different days), despite the fact that when it comes to the Championships they can clearly only swim in one team.

1. There is no such thing as 1st claim, old world terminology. Just a minor thing but swimmers are regularly members of many clubs for many reasons - the club they pay there ASA fees through is their 'ranked club' but this really only effects the name associated to their times on rankings.

2. I believe if you wanted to be naughty you could definately get away with this, but only because it is very difficult to police, I think that the powers that be would hope that someone would 'dob you in'

[Linny]

1. There is no such thing as 1st claim, old world terminology. Just a minor thing but swimmers are regularly members of many clubs for many reasons - the club they pay there ASA fees through is their 'ranked club' but this really only effects the name associated to their times on rankings.This isn't true in Scotland. Whether you think it is old-fashioned terminology is irrelevant, 1st claim etc is still the way it is.2. I believe if you wanted to be naughty you could definately get away with this, but only because it is very difficult to police, I think that the powers that be would hope that someone would 'dob you in'A rule, regulation or condition cannot be policed until it is written so you cannot be "dobbed in" however naughty it is.

[bystander]

1. There is no such thing as 1st claim, old world terminology. Just a minor thing but swimmers are regularly members of many clubs for many reasons - the club they pay there ASA fees through is their 'ranked club' but this really only effects the name associated to their times on rankings.

2. I believe if you wanted to be naughty you could definately get away with this, but only because it is very difficult to police, I think that the powers that be would hope that someone would 'dob you in'

In England the club that pays the fees is the "FEE PAYING CLUB" The ranked club is swimmer choice but defaults to the fee paying club.

Since the NAG and Youth are english events then the scottish rules are not valid in this competition.

[Linny]

In England the club that pays the fees is the "FEE PAYING CLUB" The ranked club is swimmer choice but defaults to the fee paying club.This is right. Right to claim is a side issue.Since the NAG and Youth are english events then the scottish rules are not valid in this competition.Agree with this too. :angel: