DoB discrimination - age group nationals

[Analyst]

Perennial gripe & I don't have THE answer.

I have just looked through the processed entries for the age group nationals and selected a couple of events.

In the boys 100 free there are 50 entrants of whom 13 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July. In the 200IM there are 54 entrants of whom 15 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July.

If you also take into account the fact that the 'early' part of the year is much longer than the 'late' part this means that you have a 3.5 times better chance of getting an age group NQT if you are born after the nationals date and before 1st Jan.

Maybe it is just ' c'est la vie ' and someone always will benefit but it does seem harsh when so much is based on the nationals eg talent camps let alone the general kudos within the swimming world. 'I would have got an NQT if the nationals were held in February' really just doesn't cut it.

[BIGBrian]

Perennial gripe & I don't have THE answer.

I have just looked through the processed entries for the age group nationals and selected a couple of events.

In the boys 100 free there are 50 entrants of whom 13 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July. In the 200IM there are 54 entrants of whom 15 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July.

If you also take into account the fact that the 'early' part of the year is much longer than the 'late' part this means that you have a 3.5 times better chance of getting an age group NQT if you are born after the nationals date and before 1st Jan.

Maybe it is just ' c'est la vie ' and someone always will benefit but it does seem harsh when so much is based on the nationals eg talent camps let alone the general kudos within the swimming world. 'I would have got an NQT if the nationals were held in February' really just doesn't cut it.

Wait till you get to the Youths with their double banded age groupings....wonder how many 15 year olds with a birthday between Jan and July have made the 15/16 year NQT?

[awaldram]

Wait till you get to the Youths with their double banded age groupings....wonder how many 15 year olds with a birthday between Jan and July have made the 15/16 year NQT?

Should be interesting given that last year was like the Marie Celeste just how empty Youths will be with the rule changes we'll see this year.

If I ever see any BS representative bemoaning the dearth of up and coming young talent I'll personally chuck the first rotten egg :)

With a current development programme that ignores 3/4 of a double age band they get what they deserve.

Wouldn't surprise me if the Youth Nationals viability is called into question in the coming years.

I still think either 2-3 age QT per year or as you suggested bi-annual competitions are a partial solution

[awaldram]

Perennial gripe & I don't have THE answer.

I have just looked through the processed entries for the age group nationals and selected a couple of events.

In the boys 100 free there are 50 entrants of whom 13 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July. In the 200IM there are 54 entrants of whom 15 have DoB's between 1st Jan & 26th July.

If you also take into account the fact that the 'early' part of the year is much longer than the 'late' part this means that you have a 3.5 times better chance of getting an age group NQT if you are born after the nationals date and before 1st Jan.

Maybe it is just ' c'est la vie ' and someone always will benefit but it does seem harsh when so much is based on the nationals eg talent camps let alone the general kudos within the swimming world. 'I would have got an NQT if the nationals were held in February' really just doesn't cut it.
Yep if you knwo one it'll get much worse

He/she will have the same problem next year in 14's then they'll need 16 year old times under the same criteria.

oooooh I wonder why so many 14-18 year olds quit ....let me look at that book on rocket science :)

[junior statto]

It will interesting if that profile stays the same IF they move age as at 31st December i.e. x3.5 more swimmers will get NQT if born from 1st Jan to 31st May.

Or whether it is indeed a fact that Autumn births produce better sporting stars. And before you laugh, there was some significant research done some years ago that established that you are more likely to be successful in sport if you were born in September. I will see if I can find the article or research but it was part of a TV programme some years ago.

So is it a case of if you are born before Dec you have 'more time' to get a NQT or autumn births have sporting celestial luck? I don't know

[Analyst]

Or whether it is indeed a fact that Autumn births produce better sporting stars. And before you laugh, there was some significant research done some years ago that established that you are more likely to be successful in sport if you were born in September. I will see if I can find the article or research but it was part of a TV programme some years ago.



It would be interesting to see if that research was in the UK or worldwide. I can see that in the UK autumn birthdays might be better because of the school year syndrome - who gets picked first in school teams etc - yep the bigger (hence, statistically, older as well) kids get selected first - probably more coordinated as well. Also possibly the younger you are in a school year the more academically 'behind' you are and so while struggling to keep up academically you have less time for sport?

The more opportunities/encouragement you're given when you're young the more likely you are to succeed so it all becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

[selkie]

It carries over into other sports and other places. Correlation is there in professional ice hockey players born in Canada in one study I've seen.

[Steve]

It carries over into other sports and other places. Correlation is there in professional ice hockey players born in Canada in one study I've seen.
That's the study cited in Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell and Bounce by Matthew Syed, which both deal with this issue in a very accessible way.

[awaldram]

It carries over into other sports and other places. Correlation is there in professional ice hockey players born in Canada in one study I've seen.

So let me get this straight

Child A born 20th July 97 swims 2:35.00 for 200 Brst
Child B Born 27th July 97 swims 2:36.00 for 200 Brst

Child B goes to national gets courted by development squads etc
Child A get nothing as he has to swim 2:33.00 to be any good becasue it ordained by the gods.

Sorry doesn't make sense for me.

Seems a lot more likely a short sighted development committee attempting to apply adult rules to children and chucking the baby out with the bath water in the process..

[awaldram]

That's the study cited in Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell and Bounce by Matthew Syed, which both deal with this issue in a very accessible way.

Looking at the adult Olympians there is no such correlation.

Yet in Young swimmers there is

I therefore suspect its atifiically created rather than act of birth and even more come unravelled into adult swimming.

i.e all the money BS spend on youth development does not develop the podium swimmers of the future but rather short term gains for those swimmer eligible by birth.

[NotVeryFast]

I once made a graph of times vs age from the rankings database:

http://www.cloudedforest.com/sharedfiles/agegrouptimes.jpg

You can see how steep the curve is in the early years. I think the x-axis is age in days, and the y-axis is 100m freestyle time.

There is only one solution, to me, and that is to apply an age correction formula similar to what exists for the masters decathlon, but at a resolution of age in days rather than annual increments.

[awaldram]

I once made a graph of times vs age from the rankings database:

http://www.cloudedforest.com/sharedfiles/agegrouptimes.jpg

You can see how steep the curve is in the early years. I think the x-axis is age in days, and the y-axis is 100m freestyle time.

There is only one solution, to me, and that is to apply an age correction formula similar to what exists for the masters decathlon, but at a resolution of age in days rather than annual increments.

Brilliant graph and clearly indicates (though fs is the least) the challenge a late 14 year old faces.

on your graph just 5300days needs to swim faster than the top all time 250 from the 6000 days !!!

It ain't gonna happen

[NotVeryFast]

on your graph just 5300days needs to swim faster than the top all time 250 from the 6000 days !!!
It was quite some time ago now that I made the graph so I can't remember exactly where the data came from, so you have to be a bit careful with conclusions like that. I think I may have just taken the annual rankings for a single year and typed in the DoBs and meet dates to work it out, and I have a feeling I may have just taken the top 50 for each age group as it was a fair bit of manual work. The general trend will be right, but it isn't showing the full range of times for each age. If someone had full access to the raw database of all swims over the last decade, with DoBs and date of swim for each performance, a much better job could be done, but I'd expect the trend line to remain the same general shape.

[awaldram]

Sorry NVF my wording was a little obscure.

My statement was referring to your swimmers at 5300 days and then the NQT for the 15-16 age group qualifying time which is based off the 250th all time best 16 year old.

So the statement that late 14 year olds have to be faster than all but 249 16 year olds ever is true.

[Laugh Out Loud]

I have found birthdays a nightmare for swimmers and a lot of people base sucess on gold medals! older daughter a few years ago birthday july managed a bronze at age groups amazing achievement, had she been 4 weeks younger would have had 3 golds! Fellow swimmer in same club got 3 golds with birthday 10 days later!
Got back home massive fuss made of gold medals bronze hardly mentioned head down hard to motivate again for british age groups as daughter felt whats the point.

What I would love is 2 age groups in year one july and one january say one LC and one SC perhaps and that would let a bad bithday shine in another competition hard I know with a busy schedule. All swimmers who are planning children have it in August/september and they will do well!!!

[BIGBrian]

I have found birthdays a nightmare for swimmers and a lot of people base sucess on gold medals! older daughter a few years ago birthday july managed a bronze at age groups amazing achievement, had she been 4 weeks younger would have had 3 golds! Fellow swimmer in same club got 3 golds with birthday 10 days later!
Got back home massive fuss made of gold medals bronze hardly mentioned head down hard to motivate again for british age groups as daughter felt whats the point.

What I would love is 2 age groups in year one july and one january say one LC and one SC perhaps and that would let a bad bithday shine in another competition hard I know with a busy schedule. All swimmers who are planning children have it in August/september and they will do well!!!

As AW said, I've advocated this before. Bin the Zonals in January and replace them with another Nationals (SC sounds like a good idea) with age at sometime in January.

I'm very against the age at 31 December idea. If it was only going to apply to the (July) nationals, then maybe fair enough, but it would inevitably flow down to Regionals, and then surely Counties and open meets as well.

The argument goes that, wherever you put the cut off, you're always going to be disadvantaging someone. If you have the cut off date for Nationals based on age as at the date of the competition (in late July), you're always going to be disadvantaging swimmers with birthdays in early July, but they have the benefit of it in the Regionals. There are other competitions out there apart from the Nationals. Some swimmers are disadvantaged for Regionals, but benefit from it at County level. The disadvantage gets spread around the year.

But when every competition ends up with the same cut off date (31 December), you're always going to be disadvantaging the same swimmers at every competition they enter (those with a birthday at the end of the year). For Youth competitions this is less of an issue (although single year age bands, please!) but for Age Group swimmers, if you have to swim, all the time, at every competition, against swimmers who are almost a year older than you, it makes a big difference.

It's very disheartening for a 10 year old who's going to turn 11 in, say, December, to spend the whole of the year competing against swimmers who have been 11 since January. And then when you get to be 11, the rug gets pulled out from under your feet again the following month, and for the next year from January you have to compete as a 12 year old for the whole year.

[Tatter]

As AW said, I've advocated this before. Bin the Zonals in January and replace them with another Nationals (SC sounds like a good idea) with age at sometime in January.

I'm very against the age at 31 December idea. If it was only going to apply to the (July) nationals, then maybe fair enough, but it would inevitably flow down to Regionals, and then surely Counties and open meets as well.

Looks like the West Mids coaches agree. From:
http://www.westmidlandswimming.org.uk/swim/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=407&Itemid=54

Age on day was also discussed and it was felt that a move nationally to bring the Nationals in line with British Championships was good. Age as at the end of the meet was agreed for every other competition, but whether the ASA/BS bring regional and county championships back to age as at the end of the year to fall into line with nationals remains to be seen.


The concept of a return to the Winter Nationals was discussed and agreed as being a good idea with the support of the Forum.

[Swim-ma]

I thought the move to age on day of competition rather than Dec 31st, several years ago now, was implemented to vary the field of competition throughout the year so you didn't always swim against the same swimmers at every competition, & as BB says, the Dec birthdays always swimming against January born swimmers.
My youngest has a December birthday & was always against several swimmers from our club who were 11 months older. Even worse in double year age bands when they were 23 months older!
As you say at least the disadvantage is shared around a bit with age at day.

[city4nil]

It would be interesting to see if that research was in the UK or worldwide. I can see that in the UK autumn birthdays might be better because of the school year syndrome - who gets picked first in school teams etc - yep the bigger (hence, statistically, older as well) kids get selected first - probably more coordinated as well. Also possibly the younger you are in a school year the more academically 'behind' you are and so while struggling to keep up academically you have less time for sport?

The more opportunities/encouragement you're given when you're young the more likely you are to succeed so it all becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

My daughter swims because when she was very little she had a clear aptitude for it . Her birthday is in the diabolic column but despite this she has done quite well.

So many other factors matter and there is no recipe, but if you don't have whatever it is that makes some people able to succeed in this tough sport it is a bit lame to blame it on your parents lack of planning.

[BIGBrian]

My daughter swims because when she was very little she had a clear aptitude for it . Her birthday is in the diabolic column but despite this she has done quite well.

So many other factors matter and there is no recipe, but if you don't have whatever it is that makes some people able to succeed in this tough sport it is a bit lame to blame it on your parents lack of planning.

With the greatest of respect..... bollox

There are plenty of swimmers who, at 15/16, are succeeding at the highest levels when at 11/12 they weren't on anybody's radar. Therefore, it must be inevitable that there have been other swimmers who gave up before getting to 15/16 because they got fed up getting beaten when they were 11/12.

Here's a good idea.....why not have a qualification strategy for Nationals/Regionals/whatever that keeps swimmers in the pool for longer, so you can actually see who really is the best around at 15/16, not just the best of who's left in the water?

[city4nil]

With the greatest of respect..... bollox

There are plenty of swimmers who, at 15/16, are succeeding at the highest levels when at 11/12 they weren't on anybody's radar. Therefore, it must be inevitable that there have been other swimmers who gave up before getting to 15/16 because they got fed up getting beaten when they were 11/12.

Here's a good idea.....why not have a qualification strategy for Nationals/Regionals/whatever that keeps swimmers in the pool for longer, so you can actually see who really is the best around at 15/16, not just the best of who's left in the water?

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken, it in truth is all but an insignificant blip in a swimmers career and imo early Gold medals and the reality that the buzz soon wears off, there are no fanfares once you get home you are the same person. I believe it is far more motivation for the vast majority who keep failing yet keep trying.

There is no endless analysis required to statistically misrepresent anything as this is a statement of the obvious.

[BIGBrian]

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken,

I entirely agree, but I'm not 11. It's too easy to say that, when you gave up at 13/14 because you have a bad birthday, you obviously didn't have what it takes in the first place.

There are plenty that come through later than that. But they need to still be there to come through. It's a fact that we lose too many potentially top class swimmers before they realise what their full potential actually is.

[awaldram]

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken, it in truth is all but an insignificant blip in a swimmers career and imo early Gold medals and the reality that the buzz soon wears off, there are no fanfares once you get home you are the same person. I believe it is far more motivation for the vast majority who keep failing yet keep trying.



There speaks a man who has never seen just 12 year olds shattered as they watch slower swimmers go off to Nationals.!!

You try telling them there's other goals , they understand one thing 'its not fair'.

And either quit or get a sense of humour....I suspect most quit.


There is no endless analysis required to statistically misrepresent anything as this is a statement of the obvious.

Not only does that not make any sense , what your trying to convey as 'obvious' is a fallacy. the establishment makes 'Nationals' the pinnacle for young swimmers so there is no alternative.

[Analyst]

But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.

Those that are very successful at 9/10/11 are often just precocious and by 13/14 everyone else has caught up but no doubt a proportion of those who were less successful at a young age (but might have matured at 13/14/15/16/17/18) have been disenfranchised and moved to other sports. The objective must be to keep all swimming so that the late developers are still in the pool.

[comeondarlo]

Loads more debate but still no answer!

Personally I side with City4

[BIGBrian]

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.

Those that are very successful at 9/10/11 are often just precocious and by 13/14 everyone else has caught up but no doubt a proportion of those who were less successful at a young age (but might have matured at 13/14/15/16/17/18) have been disenfranchised and moved to other sports. The objective must be to keep all swimming so that the late developers are still in the pool.

:beer:

[awaldram]

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.
.

I wonder where we'd be if talent was spotted in a non haphazard manner (age/size).

Where would Rebecca Adlington be if her brilliant 200 fly was noted and acted on in her development , Was it missed as a direct result of her birth-date.?

Is there reason Britain struggles to develop international standard Breaststroke and Flyers a direct result of a policy that favors those strokes that are easier (points and entry times favor back and free for young swimmers)

[noeyedear]

Scrap age group nationals...

They are just a way of massaging the coaches egos anyway. Far too much focus and pressure causing more catastrophic failure in the young swimmers when they don't reach this 'pinnacle'. Sport should be fun at this age.

[Tatter]

Scrap age group nationals...

Gets my vote! It would also force coaches/beacon programmes to look at the swimmer and not just National results (Either that or substitute it with another lazy criteria like Regional Finalist).

[Linny]

Gets my vote! It would also force coaches/beacon programmes to look at the swimmer and not just National results (Either that or substitute it with another lazy criteria like Regional Finalist).Mine too.

If the youngest age group is 13 (and under?) or 14 (and under?) then this reduces the impact of where in the year a child is born for one off annual competitions.

[Laugh Out Loud]

Scrap age group nationals...

They are just a way of massaging the coaches egos anyway. Far too much focus and pressure causing more catastrophic failure in the young swimmers when they don't reach this 'pinnacle'. Sport should be fun at this age.

I agree with this I see this year we still have 11 year olds managing the times will they still be around in 5 years time or have burnt out! I think a lot of coaches think they are wonderful if they have a swimmer doing well at nationals!

[comeondarlo]

Mine too.

If the youngest age group is 13 (and under?) or 14 (and under?) then this reduces the impact of where in the year a child is born for one off annual competitions.

I thought they were heading that way over the next few years and after due consideration it's the only fair way.

Next year do away with 12 year old qualifying times and so on until you only have under 14 qualifying times left.

Sorted!

[awaldram]

Mine too.

If the youngest age group is 13 (and under?) or 14 (and under?) then this reduces the impact of where in the year a child is born for one off annual competitions.

And me

This would allow the new single age nationals to have easier single times giving all 10,11,12,13 long term targets.

Which might keep more swimmers in the water

[comeondarlo]

And me

This would allow the new single age nationals to have easier single times giving all 10,11,12,13 long term targets.

Which might keep more swimmers in the water

I'm sure we all came to the same conclusion this time last year :speechles

[Shezzaxx]

I wonder where we'd be if talent was spotted in a non haphazard manner (age/size).

Where would Rebecca Adlington be if her brilliant 200 fly was noted and acted on in her development , Was it missed as a direct result of her birth-date.?

Is there reason Britain struggles to develop international standard Breaststroke and Flyers a direct result of a policy that favors those strokes that are easier (points and entry times favor back and free for young swimmers)

Hmmmm, I'd definitely classify Gandy, Lowe and Halsall as world class (international standard) Fly swimmers.

Agreed that there appear to be better "points" available for (say) backstroke but I'm not sure whether that really is a driver or motivator for swimmers to concentrate on those strokes. Freestyle is almost a must stroke to develop both in training and competing terms (relays etc) whilst Fly and Breast are, arguably more technical to perfect. Early success in a particular stroke can perhaps unduly influence the development of that as your main stroke but that's probably human nature - success breeds success.

Likewise, the depth of competition at any particular moment in time can also influence your ultimate event selection depsite your personal strengths. I think there are numerous American's who have perhaps not even tried to develop their IM skills whilst a certain Phelps and Lochte are around. Finally, some swimmers are just very good at whatever stroke they choose to focus on. Jessica Hardy showed that at the US Trials. World Record Holder for 100m Breastroke but dumped out at trials only to bounce back to a storming victory in 100m FS. Despite (I assume) being a specialist breastroker most of her life she presumably still trains big time on FS and therefore is very good - certainly not because there were more points available or it's an easier stroke to do well on.

[Linny]

I thought they were heading that way over the next few years and after due consideration it's the only fair way.

Next year do away with 12 year old qualifying times and so on until you only have under 14 qualifying times left.

Sorted!think so!

Just keeping it in the picture. :-)

[selkie]

Hardy ended up a freestyle sprinter because the American university teams expect you to have 3-4 different events a coach can put you into, and her 200 breast and 200 IM, the usual grouping for NCAA breaststrokers, were an utter trainwreck. IIRC, she was a good but not great free swimmer coming out of high school. So Teri McKeever got her started in the sprint frees at a high level in a quest for a second individual event, (or at least have a way to contribute to a few more relays) and then Dave Salo's program worked well to further develop her sprint speed.

[selkie]

Here's you go by school year for school swim teams, and normally it's date of birth on the first day of the meet for non-school clubs. Still you can end up with clusters. Someone at SwimSwam has too much time on their hands between now and London and decided to inform us that 13 of the 49 American athletes selected for the Olympics are Pisces (ie. born between February 18 and March 20). Which seems fitting.

http://swimswam.com/2012/07/pisces-the-fish-most-common-us-olympic-zodiac-sign/

[city4nil]

If a child has a 'bad' birthday at school do you suggest they

a. throw a tantrum
b. right to the lea claiming discrimination

or just try and support them through it to make the best of it.

Other astonishing facts under the stbo
..... In other areas as young people mature they also find the targets set more challenging and at every step up a significant percentage fail, O levels, A levels anf then Uni yet society still continues.... because that's how these things work and if everybody mafe the grade the grade needs reviewing.

[Analyst]

or just try and support them through it to make the best of it.



Yep, as parents that's exactly what we do. We'd just like to see the swimming world trying to help as well rather than putting even bigger hurdles in the way eg double year age bands. It must be in BS's interest to keep as many kids swimming as possible so they need to be creative and sensible about thinking of ways to achieve that.

[awaldram]

If a child has a 'bad' birthday at school do you suggest they

a. throw a tantrum
b. right to the lea claiming discrimination

or just try and support them through it to make the best of it.

Other astonishing facts under the stbo
..... In other areas as young people mature they also find the targets set more challenging and at every step up a significant percentage fail, O levels, A levels anf then Uni yet society still continues.... because that's how these things work and if everybody mafe the grade the grade needs reviewing.
Which of these attainment levels is set 2 and indeed 3 years above the examinee.

Last time I looked 14 year old are not assessed on their 'O' level results. Nor 16 year olds against 'A' levels.

The reason being they'd fail miserably as they don't yet have the tools to succeed.

Exactly the same with 2 year age groups in male swimming the younger swimmers have little chance of succeeding.

Your perspective is probably different having a female swimmer capable of British records @ 13 means you've probably never been caught in the age trap at least for the short sprints she excels at.
Put this in perspective
Every 13 year old Girl Br will qualify the swimmer as a 19 and over NQT
Not one 13 year old Male Br qualifies the swimmer as a 19 yr old and indeed is about the 15/16 NQT

So in in summary

If a 15 year female can swim near the 13 year old British Record she's set up for Nationals for life.

If a 14 year Male swims better than 13 year old British Records he'll scrape 15/16 NQT for that year.

Now that's not a level playing field !!

[Champinprogress]

Exactly the same with 2 year age groups in male swimming the younger swimmers have little chance of succeeding.


Good Job nobody told Matthew Johnson and James Guy in the European Juniors, they may not have got on the plane (Silver & Bronze 400m Free) both 95 born in 94/95 age group.:)

[BIGBrian]

Good Job nobody told Matthew Johnson and James Guy in the European Juniors, they may not have got on the plane (Silver & Bronze 400m Free) both 95 born in 94/95 age group.:)

Matthew Johnson has been a National Record Holder in multiple events since he was 13.

If you have to achieve that standard in order to win Silver/Bronze medals, then that's a perfect justification for NOT having two year age bands, not for justifying their existence :)

[comeondarlo]

Matthew Johnson has been a National Record Holder in multiple events since he was 13.

If you have to achieve that standard in order to win Silver/Bronze medals, then that's a perfect justification for NOT having two year age bands, not for justifying their existence :)

:confused:That makes absolutely no sense :confused:

[Tatter]

If a child has a 'bad' birthday at school do you suggest they

a. throw a tantrum
b. right to the lea claiming discrimination

or just try and support them through it to make the best of it.


Or you could ask the decision makers to make the system fairer as well as support.
Completely off-topic, but bad birthdays (June-July) do have an impact on GCSE statistics as 'clever' Autumn children are placed in higher sets and given better opportunities to learn.

[awaldram]

Good Job nobody told Matthew Johnson and James Guy in the European Juniors, they may not have got on the plane (Silver & Bronze 400m Free) both 95 born in 94/95 age group.:)

But what has age group swimming to do with either of these 17 year olds.?

I think you've missed the thrust of the discussion.! :speechles

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau and as such I would expect the best of a younger age group to attain a decent standard against a year above.
As per the discussion I stated you had to achieve British record standard to escape the age trap.

Let look at some 14 year British records

200m FREESTYLE 01:53.63 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 25th July 2009
400m FREESTYLE 03:59.84 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 22nd July 2009
800m FREESTYLE 08:15.87 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
1500m FREESTYLE 15:36.11 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
200m BACKSTROKE 02:07.21 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 24th July 2009
200m BUTTERFLY 02:02.67 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 29th March 2010
200m IND. MEDLEY 02:08.19 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 23rd July 2009
400m IND. MEDLEY 04:23.51 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 2nd April 2010

So you have admirably proved my point.

[Pink Paraffin]

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau.

What is 'The Plateau' please? And which graph? Thanks

[awaldram]

What is 'The Plateau' please? And which graph? Thanks

Plateau (mathematics), a region where a function is constant

The graph on the the first page of this thread ??
http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15531

[Linny]

Here (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=250791&postcount=19) is a link to some more graphs.

Without doubt a favourable birthday affects swimmers during their age group years.

If you look at the graphs of the Youths on the following post, you will see that the benefits of a favourable birthday have waned and even the dual age band affects only the youngest in the younger year.

I have never made graphs of birth dates of senior swimmers but I don't believe (from the older youth graphs) that these will show that the advantage or disadvantage of birthdate within a year is of any relevance by then (other than the predominance of pisceans which I suggested well before this recent American study).

Awaldram, I don't believe that the long term disadvantage that you are suggesting is borne out. This may be because there are other selections AND meets that are already age at 31 December and this offsets the advantages and disadvantages and that is why I think National events should remain as age on day (albeit once swimmers are over their pre-teen years at least).

[Champinprogress]

But what has age group swimming to do with either of these 17 year olds.?

I think you've missed the thrust of the discussion.! :speechles

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau and as such I would expect the best of a younger age group to attain a decent standard against a year above.
As per the discussion I stated you had to achieve British record standard to escape the age trap.

Let look at some 14 year British records

200m FREESTYLE 01:53.63 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 25th July 2009
400m FREESTYLE 03:59.84 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 22nd July 2009
800m FREESTYLE 08:15.87 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
1500m FREESTYLE 15:36.11 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
200m BACKSTROKE 02:07.21 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 24th July 2009
200m BUTTERFLY 02:02.67 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 29th March 2010
200m IND. MEDLEY 02:08.19 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 23rd July 2009
400m IND. MEDLEY 04:23.51 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 2nd April 2010

So you have admirably proved my point.


Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

[swimbar]

Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

You missed out Coaches but otherwise spot on. In every walk of life there are winners & losers. Some people just don't want to accept that!

[clipboard]

In every walk of life there are winners & losers.
Well said swimbar. It is quality that counts regardless of age if you are good enough you will be a WINNER.

[Tatter]

After reading this thread the door opened & closed.
I wondered what caused this, I think it was my will to live and faith in humanity leaving.

[Pink Paraffin]

Plateau (mathematics), a region where a function is constant

The graph on the the first page of this thread ??
http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15531

OK are we basing all of this discussion on this particular graph? What is its credibility? Over how many years was this data collected? In which nations? Male/female/both? Event specific?

And I know what 'a plateau' is. But you referred to 'the plateau' which sounds quite definitive. What is this please - in relation to this all-singing all-dancing graph perhaps?

[awaldram]

Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

Well going by the Title "DoB discrimination - age group nationals "

I would say its a discussion on whether Date of Birth discriminates for Age Group Nationals.

As to your allegation of self interest I note that the majority of respondents both for and against the theory ( including myself) do not have AGe group children.

So whatever it looks like mine and others interest in this is not related to personal self gain.

I would also counter maybe those so strangely opposed to the data have teens in the comfort zone and wish to believe their better than perhaps they are?

[awaldram]

OK are we basing all of this discussion on this particular graph? What is its credibility? Over how many years was this data collected? In which nations? Male/female/both? Event specific?

And I know what 'a plateau' is. But you referred to 'the plateau' which sounds quite definitive. What is this please - in relation to this all-singing all-dancing graph perhaps?
Not sure why your getting so het up.

The figures are available for all swimmers from 1997 if you don't believe the graphs then get the facts yourself and present your argument.

Check out the graph Linny referred to they all show the same early teen swimmers are disadvantaged by birth date.

[Laugh Out Loud]

Problem will always be there move the date and it just affects someone else, as I have told my kids a bad birthday is actually better as you are not lulled into a false sense of security thinking you are better than you really are cos of a good birthday then when it becomes a level playing field you get beaten!

I always say make a final or nearly do and if you have a bad birthday you have done really well. My daughter at the scottish age groups had to swim as a 14 year old while still 13 but just got on with it and managed to make finals few days earlier she would have had golds but thats life and she just got on with it.

[Linny]

Not sure why your getting so het up.

The figures are available for all swimmers from 1997 if you don't believe the graphs then get the facts yourself and present your argument.

Check out the graph Linny referred to they all show the same early teen swimmers are disadvantaged by birth date.My point in posting was to suggest that the undeniable disadvantage that younger age group swimmers face does not in itself lead to them quitting the sport in droves. If it did, we would see fewer May, June and July birthday swimmers in youth and senior swimming because they would have quit as age groupers. We just don't see that. I am sure that for every "young in year swimmer" that gives up because they aren't as fast as "old in year swimmers" there is another who uses it and gets better for the following year.

[awaldram]

My point in posting was to suggest that the undeniable disadvantage that younger age group swimmers face does not in itself lead to them quitting the sport in droves. If it did, we would see fewer May, June and July birthday swimmers in youth and senior swimming because they would have quit as age groupers. We just don't see that. I am sure that for every "young in year swimmer" that gives up because they aren't as fast as "old in year swimmers" there is another who uses it and gets better for the following year.

I think your could be right those that stick to it tend to have the right mental attitude to succeed so a higher percentage make it to top level swimming.

My point was really if you've removed the 2nd tier of swimmers just who is pushing the 1st tier competitively.

At what point does it become non-viable to run an age band competition , if you only have 10 12 year olds the what point heats and finals.?

I suppose I'm extending BS development policy to its logical conclusion when the 'best' are no longer good enough, feels like all eggs in one basket to me.

There is also an argument that give them everything to early and they'll quit because they've done everything.

This IMO is one of the issues with young upcoming female swimmers.

[400IMer]

What ever happened to the talent ID schemes. Seemed a good idea. Also don't know if anyone else remembers in Swimming times about 8-10 years ago a photo of some girls who had been identified as being talented by Bill S and his staff. Can't remember the names of the swimmers, Adlington, Halsall, Lowe, Gandy... what ever happened to these swimmers?

[Linny]

Remember 'that' group was not selected from a random population, the girls were picked from swimmers who were already excelling as age groupers.

Besides, I am sure talent id still happens in some shape or form.

I don't think Adlington was ever part of 'that' group either although I am sure her talent was identified.

[Steve]

Remember 'that' group was not selected from a random population, the girls were picked from swimmers who were already excelling as age groupers.

Besides, I am sure talent id still happens in some shape or form.

I don't think Adlington was ever part of 'that' group either although I am sure her talent was identified.
You're right that Adlington wasn't on the "Smart Track" - but she was well known at that age - in the European Youth Olympics team in 2003 for example.

[Pink Paraffin]

Not sure why your getting so het up.

Not sure I was - just asking a few questions, some of which got answers. And good to see a few 'IMOs' creep back in

[awaldram]

The reason a dog has so many friend is cos he wags his tail instead of his tongue
There's always something
That you got to say
I lose my mind and then I surely fade away, yeah

[Pink Paraffin]

The reason a dog has so many friend is cos he wags his tail instead of his tongue
There's always something
That you got to say
I lose my mind and then I surely fade away, yeah

Probably the first person to ever click with that :music:

[400IMer]

Besides, I am sure talent id still happens in some shape or form.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

:joker:

[BIGBrian]

Probably the first person to ever click with that :music:

Nah, there's more than one Aerosmith fan here :)