The greatest swim of all time? [Archive]

lane4

25-07-2003, 06:43 PM

1:56.04 for the 200 I.M. by Michael Phelps (only minutes after already breaking the 100 fly world record, 51.4).

Nobody is in any doubt that Phelps is a better swimmer than Thorpe but is this the greatest swim of all time? Nobody else has even broken 1:58 and only a handful have ever gone sub 2:00.

chris_lamb

25-07-2003, 07:06 PM

It is very difficult to say what the "greatest" swim ever is. Swimmers now have more opportunity to train than any before them, and the knowledge that comes from the science is always increasing. Tied in with that is the improvement in equipment, both personal and the pool itself. Additionally, the laws are very rarely changed to slow people down. I'm not sure it is actually possible to compare a swim done today with one done thirty years ago, the sport is very different now.

Having said all that, it shouldn't take anything away from the outstanding performances we have seen in these championships including from Phelps. Anything that gets swimming as the top sports story on BBC News has to be good :)

glen_75

25-07-2003, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by lane4
Nobody is in any doubt that Phelps is a better swimmer than Thorpe but is this the greatest swim of all time?

I think many observers down under will dispute that until Athens.

It's the versatility vs. preeminence of freestyle argument.

I've supported Thorpe until now, but Phelps may be changing my mind.

swimmer

25-07-2003, 10:57 PM

why do you think "Nobody is in any doubt that Phelps is a better swimmer than Thorpe" lane4?? i think i'd ahve to say that at the present time IMHO Thorpe's track record is greater then Phelps

GettingFaster

25-07-2003, 11:11 PM

Isn't this trying to compare apples with bricks? In order to suggest a "greatest swim" you'd have to add some qualifications. Is this specifically the greatest swim of the 2003 World Champs? Is it the greatest freestyle swim ever? Or the greatest recovery following another good swim? Or the fastest swim on a particular stroke? Or the best breaststroke with current rules?

Or the best personal achievement.

Any "greatest swim" will be a best personal achievement for a given individual, and each individual, whether a world champion or a minor league club swimmer, will be able to come up with a "greatest swim" to rival anything the Thorpes and Popovs of this world can come up with.

Remember that each of you is capable of a "greatest swim" if you truly put your all into what you are doing.

You are ALL the greatest, if you want to be.

lane4

26-07-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by swimmer
i think i'd ahve to say that at the present time IMHO Thorpe's track record is greater then Phelps

Yes you are correct, Thorpe's track record IS better than Phelps'. But then Thorpe has been at the top longer than Phelps so it should be. However, I'm not talking about track records, I'm talking about right here right now, who is the best swimmer in the world. Anyone who says other than Phelps is living in cloud cuckoo land! The guy just beat Thorpe in the 200 IM! The IM events were invented to test who is the best 'swimmer'!

lane4

26-07-2003, 02:06 AM

Originally posted by GettingFaster
Isn't this trying to compare apples with bricks?

Errr, no. It's comparing world record swims with world record swims in the context of the era in which they were set.

lane4

26-07-2003, 02:13 AM

Originally posted by GettingFaster
In order to suggest a "greatest swim" you'd have to add some qualifications.

I'm asking if it is THE 'greatest' swim of ALL time?
This means, does it stand out above all other swims in the era in which it was set and does the extent to which it stands out in its current era exceed that of previous outstanding swims in other eras?

It's a subjective matter and everyone will have their own opinion as to which swim / swimmer is the greatest of all time. Just like those votes which pool the greatest footballer of all time or the best film of all time.

I am merely offering Phelp's IM today as one of the contenders given that it is so far ahead of that which anyone else has ever done and by utilising all strokes it demonstrates superior all round swimming ability.

The best swim I've ever seen live in person, the one which took my breath away more than any other, is easily Inge de Bruijn's 100 fly at the Speedo Grand Prix in Sheffield in 2000 when she went 56 point. Although VDH's 47 at the 2000 Olympics pushes this close! The gasp of awe that went round the 17000 crowd when 47 came on the scoreboard that day was just incredible.

glen_75

26-07-2003, 02:34 AM

Well what's the competition?

some more contenders

Janet Evans' 400 WR
Ian Thorpe's 400 WR
Mary T. Meagher 200 fly
Krisztina Egerszegi 200 back
Popov 50 free
Hackett 1500

chris_lamb

26-07-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by lane4
The IM events were invented to test who is the best 'swimmer'!

I would have to disagree. The IM may test who is the best swimmer across all four strokes but does not necessarily test who is the best swimmer.

Pete

26-07-2003, 11:41 AM

It is very difficult to quantify what makes the greatest swimmer and greatest swimming performance.
The most memorable swimming moment for me was Wilkie in th 76 Olympics breaking the 200 Breast World Record by 3 seconds. 2:15 is still a pretty good time some 27 years on.:)

swimmer

26-07-2003, 12:07 PM

What has happened to Inge de Bruijn??

bobby

26-07-2003, 01:55 PM

She has only entered the sprints.

swimmer

26-07-2003, 02:36 PM

oh ok thanx:)

ktcute

26-07-2003, 05:03 PM

Best swim of all time? I wouldn't want to say, I haven't seen enough!

As for Thorpey not being as good as Phelps... it depends how you measure. Thorpe has that great state of mind which lets him endure long distance events, and got him into the aussie team in his mid teens, holding umpteen world records.

Phelps has that wonderful style, magic touch in the water, and looks as though he could leap through hoops like a dolphin if we expected it of him.

In terms of skill, I would say Phelps was better. In terms of who is the better competitor, at the moment, I wouldn't want to say, it depends, for me on how Phelps stands the test of time. Though thinking about it, have you ever seen Thorpey create <u>any</u> turbulence with his hands? How do you do that?

swimmer

26-07-2003, 06:11 PM

Phelps just seems to never get tired!

swimmer

26-07-2003, 06:13 PM

well phelps no longer holds the WR in one of his best events (100fly) neither did he win the Worlds on this event (2nd), i guess at least Thorpe won the Worlds in his best events

nsswimmer

27-07-2003, 12:36 PM

i think that phelps is a much better all-round swimmer than thorpe. thorpe seems very very reluctant to touch the longer events.. [not necessarily that phelps is!] but phelps seems to be more experimental.. he is so skilled at everything; at nationals, he beat lenny krayzelburg in his signature event -- the backstroke!

Bazza

28-07-2003, 05:33 PM

Exactly Phelps just can't swim all the events. He broke the WRs in the 200 fly, and 200 and 400 IMs. He also broke the 100 fly in the semi final and went faster in the final - he can't do anything about Crocker going 50 point!

Phelps also split a 1:46 in the 4x200 relay I believe and can swim 3:49 for the 400 free. Not to mention having outstanding ability on the backstroke most notably.

Thorpe dominates the 200 and 400 free the same way Phelps does the IMs but he can't compete in any other strokes and isn't fast enough for the 100. I don't know why he stopped swimming 800s but that is the only other event I can see him winning.

For me, Phelps is definitely the best swimmer in the world right now and his 200 IM was the best swim I've ever seen, so I voted yes, even though I can't comment on other swims. His 400 was also immense but Cseh got very close to the old WR so at least he has someone chasing him there!

Top10ranking

13-03-2004, 09:44 PM

GettingFaster

13-03-2004, 09:50 PM

All said for me
So why say anything extra? :confused:

Top10ranking

13-03-2004, 09:52 PM

to give people my view.

Steve

14-03-2004, 08:17 AM

I appreciate we are resurrecting an old thread, but with the benefit of hindsight, I would now have to say "No". The reason? Phelps' subsequent 1:55.94 WR ;)

mad4it

14-03-2004, 08:28 AM

Phelps' subsequent 1:55.94 WR

So would you say that was the 'Greatest Swim of all time?' :devil: :D

Steve

14-03-2004, 07:53 PM

So would you say that was the 'Greatest Swim of all time?' :devil: :D
That's the implication, but it's not quite as clear cut as that - one has to take into account the circumstances of each swim. However, given that MP has now swum sub 1:56 and no-one else on the planet has swum below 1:58, it's a mightily impressive performance, so probably "Yes". I reckon the only world record that comes close, in terms of how far ahead of the competition it is, must be the Hackett's 1500.

Dreama

28-03-2004, 08:25 PM

given the distance of the race, the amunt of space between swimemr sis bound to be bigger than shorterr aces, so u ccant use that as a justification!

Steve

28-03-2004, 09:48 PM

given the distance of the race, the amunt of space between swimemr sis bound to be bigger than shorterr aces, so u ccant use that as a justification!
Why not? Phelps is 2 and a bit seconds faster over 200m, Hackett is about 10 seconds faster over 1500; pretty comparable margins, even taking into account the differences in distance IMHO

selkie

12-04-2005, 04:19 AM

If you go by US Swimming's Perfect Race (Verbatim%2094527%20LTO%20Ultrium%202%20200GB/400GB) picks, they seem to prefer Phelps' 200 fly and 400 IM records to his 200 IM standard. (couple of other fun videos there including Jim Montgomery's 100 free from 1976, and Betsy Mitchell's old spin turn 200 back American record)

Bazza

12-04-2005, 04:37 PM

Selkie could you post a working link to that site please, would be interesting!

I know this isn't the argument of this thread but it did come up - surely nobody would now argue against Phelps being the best swimmer in the world, nor probably being the best swimmer ever.

Spidey

12-04-2005, 06:04 PM

Think I have seen some great swims in my time. Dorothy Westons' 100m Butterfly last year stands way out for me.

selkie

12-04-2005, 07:14 PM

Sorry about that. Try:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=170&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

glen_75

12-04-2005, 07:57 PM

I noticed the "No" votes have shot up since this was bumped. Funny what perspective does. Still, that was one of the best swims of recent times, especially coming on the heels of the WR in the 100 fly semi.

If you mean by the best ... the most talented. Yes I think he is the most talented swimmer.

WRs in 3 individual olympic contested events:
200 fly
200IM
400IM

100fly #2 all time
200back #2 all time
200 free #3 all time

Speaks for itself really.

Some however won't concede he is the best because they factor in accomplisments into the definition of the best, so one cannot measure him properly in that regard until at least the twilight of his swimmming career.

selkie

12-04-2005, 08:38 PM

Though he's still not much of a breaststroker, so I'd have to put Tracy Caulkins ahead of him until he throws down a 1:01-1:02 100M breast somewhere.

Long Course world records: 200 fly (just before Mary Meagher stormed on the scene), 200 IM, 400 IM, 63 different American records in every stroke plus the IMs, 48 national championships in every stroke plus the IMs, 5 world championships at age 15, 3 Olympic gold medals in 1984 when she was allegedly past her prime (she would have likely won more if not for the 1980 US boycott)

She held the US Open record (fastest time on American soil) in the 200 IM until 2004 while swimming under the old breaststroke and backstroke rules.

Bazza

14-04-2005, 10:14 AM

I couldn't find Phelps' best times for breast, but I found that he was swimming 66 in 2002 and 2:19 for 200 in 2003. I think swimming is alot more competitive than 20 years ago though and to say someone like Phelps falls down because he is only world class on 3 strokes is a little bit tough! ;)

karlingo

17-04-2005, 02:57 PM

I don't know whether it's the greatest, but the 4x200 relay final in Athens was the most exiting race I have ever seen, especially the last leg with Thorpe chasing Klete Keller and failing to win. AWSOME!!! (And I was there, too!!!)

swimswamswum

01-11-2005, 02:41 PM

Well , this sort of topic always comes down to one's personal opinion. Before I became a member here -- or even knew that this forum existed -- I posted my nomination in my own (new) swimming forum. Even though the post is titled "The most exciting swim of all time", for me the swim is also the greatest.

http://p105.ezboard.com/fblacklinefeverfrm17.showMessage?topicID=24.topic

Dreama

02-11-2005, 10:43 AM

The relay in Fukuoka where Thorpe stole the show is the greatest for me.

I'd love to find a video of it

lane4

02-11-2005, 11:40 AM

The relay in Fukuoka where Thorpe stole the show is the greatest for me.

I'd love to find a video of it

Remind me, when and in what way has Thorpe ever stolen the show in any meet since his debut on the big stage in 1998? On the contrary I would suggest he has always been the star attraction.

Dreama

02-11-2005, 06:13 PM

I totally agree, to me Thorpe will always be the star attraction as he is phenomenal swimmer...

I was just thinking that although in the Fukuoka race we expected him to steal the show and win, and be the star attraction - that performance just seemed to me to have the extra edge, the excitement and the emotion of a fantastic victory, not just for himself but for his team

Dreama

02-11-2005, 06:24 PM

My apologies I don't mean the relay in Fukuoka I mean the 4 x 100 in Sydney, or the one where he passed Gary Hall Jnr!

lane4

05-11-2005, 07:36 PM

My apologies I don't mean the relay in Fukuoka I mean the 4 x 100 in Sydney, or the one where he passed Gary Hall Jnr!

You mean in Sydney then. But what you may not realise is that although he passed Gary in the last 25m, Gary actually had a faster split time than Thorpe.

Martin-Y

06-11-2005, 10:03 AM

You mean in Sydney then. But what you may not realise is that although he passed Gary in the last 25m, Gary actually had a faster split time than Thorpe.
Not doubting your facts Lane4 but if Thorpe passed GH Snr he must have entered the water behind him and finished in front of him, therebye covering a greater distance in the same time. Or has this being a sunday morning dulled my senses.

Steve

06-11-2005, 10:08 AM

Not doubting your facts Lane4 but if Thorpe passed GH Snr he must have entered the water behind him and finished in front of him, therebye covering a greater distance in the same time. Or has this being a sunday morning dulled my senses.
Nope, he entered the water first, but Hall Jr (I'm sure there were many people at those Olympics who could have overtaken Hall Snr in 2000! :)) being the better sprinter overtook him on the opening fifty. Thorpe then took back the lead in the final 10m or so. Hall was 0.06 faster overall however, since the winning margin was slightly less than the lead that Thorpe started with.