Would you withdraw?

[Bazza]

OK seeing as this thread is not in the off topic forum hopefully you have realised it is about whether Thorpe should swim the 400m free in Athens or not!

The question is simple, the answer is not so simple.

If you wer Craig Stevens would you pull out of the 400m to let Thorpe swim or not?

[chris_lamb]

If you wer Craig Stevens would you pull out of the 400m to let Thorpe swim or not?

I think I would.

Stevens is unlikely to win, but Thorpe has a very good chance. Stevens qualified because Thorpe made a mistake, not through swimming faster.

[Top10ranking]

i wouldn't it might be his only chance

[GettingFaster]

My first thought would be No, I'd earnt my place, but would I then be able to put up with the media pressure to withdraw in favour of Thorpe? If I couldn't put up with the pressure then I'd have to withdraw. And I couldn't choose the fourth option because I wouldn't have any say on who would get the place instead. That's as firmly on the fence as it's possible to be, I reckon!

[lozswimmer]

If it was my only event i wouldnt withdraw, but it isnt stevens only event and thorpe has a much better chance of a medal than stevens

[Katie]

Yes I think I agree with loz... Stevens also qualified for the 1500m, and I think it would in a way be quite difficult for him NOT to pull out. I don't mean anyone is forcing him, but there has been such a fuss made of the whole affair that it is pretty much expected now. Stevens will still get a swim in the Olympics, and may well feel that he only truly deserves to be there for the 1500 (although, of course, this is not the case). It's a difficult one...

[Top10ranking]

is it likely to b his last olympics?

[blueshots]

I,ve read today that there will be an announcement on monday. Also there is rumoured to be money offered for stevens, namly a scholarship which will put him him gd stead for the next olympics.
That said though, Thorpes his mate who if it was me i'd hold my hand up and say it was my mistake and wish him well.

[blueshots]

I think I would.

Stevens is unlikely to win, but Thorpe has a very good chance. Stevens qualified because Thorpe made a mistake, not through swimming faster.
mistakes lose races. Anyone wud av beat thorpe if he false starts, better now than in Athens. why Thorpe would be tryin to be that quick off the block that he falls in i dont no as its likly he wud finish ahead of the field in a 400 if he straddled jumped in.
If rules are going to be changed it shud be noted for next time

[Steve]

I,ve read today that there will be an announcement on monday. Also there is rumoured to be money offered for stevens, namly a scholarship which will put him him gd stead for the next olympics.
That said though, Thorpes his mate who if it was me i'd hold my hand up and say it was my mistake and wish him well.
See: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/21/1082530237963.html

As for money, I think it's just payment for the exclusive interview; Stevens will have an AIS scholarship until Beijing if he wants it in any case.

[GettingFaster]

... why Thorpe would be tryin to be that quick off the block that he falls in i dont no as its likly he wud finish ahead of the field in a 400 if he straddled jumped in.
Didn't you SEE the pictures? It really didn't look like he did a flyer to me -- a straddle jump would have been MUCH more elegant! The bloke just over-balanced and fell in, much like a 10-yr-old in their first gala.

[lozswimmer]

they showed him actually falling in on the olympic trials coverage

[matt]

I personally wouldn't, I would be like wahay I won you fell in; not my problem! It's the Olympics after all! However, I suppose I would consider it but I wouldn't actually pull out.

[Bazza]

I was going to say that I wouldn't pull out, reason being that Stevens earnt his place, it wasn't his fault that Thorpe got DQd, and the Olympics is the pinnacle of your swimming career. This may be Stevens' only Olympic Games and if he withdraws he may come to regret it later in life.

Having said that, you guys are starting to talk me round in so much that if Stevens doesn't win a medal or in fact even if he does he will be known as the man who denied Thorpe his Olympic title.

Like I said, it's not an easy decision to make!!

[chlorine_babe]

It's not an easy decision but I think I would pull out. He still has his better event the 1500 to swim and the 4*200m relay. I wouldn't want always to be the one who denied Ian Thorpe is 400m title. If it was only the 400m no way would I pull out but with the 1500m as well I think it would be easier all round and from what it looks like Stevens will end up with a nice deal.

[KatieBun]

I think I would.

Stevens is unlikely to win, but Thorpe has a very good chance. Stevens qualified because Thorpe made a mistake, not through swimming faster.
..but, Chris, people win medals in galas when the "best" swimmer makes a mistake. Are you going to apply the same rules there?

[KatieBun]

Whatever happens, it has to be noted that putting Thorpe back in would be setting a precedent. Even if the rules are changed, the change would be retrospective, which is not sporting.
One extra point, what sort of example is set to our young club swimmers if, at that level, you can make such a huge mistake and get away with it?
Bill Sweetenham is tough enough to point out to our swimmers that it's what they do on the day that counts. The same should apply in all qualifying sessions.
....I'll get off my soap box now!

[chris_lamb]

..but, Chris, people win medals in galas when the "best" swimmer makes a mistake. Are you going to apply the same rules there?

Not at all. Stevens won fairly, and it is his right to take up his place in the team. However, I think I would feel that the "right" thing for everyone would be to let Thorpe swim. Giving up the place would show that Stevens is concerned for the overall performance of the team, and all swimmers, not just himself.

[Phil Tanner]

But is this Krogh's once-in-a-lifetime chance of the Games?

[londoner62]

I think clorine_babe summed up perfectly my feelings.
.............He still has his better event the 1500 to swim................ If it was only the 400m no way would I pull out but with the 1500m as well I think it would be easier all round and from what it looks like Stevens will end up with a nice deal.

[Katie]

But is this Krogh's once-in-a-lifetime chance of the Games?
yes... but he has chosen to turn it down. I think he feels that if stevens pulls out, he is not the man to take his place. It's all v difficult.

[Linny]

If he doesn't pull out he will always be remembered for being the man that deprived the Thorpedo of winning an Olympic Gold (whether or not Thorpe would have won it). The fact that he qualified fairly after Thorpe's mistake will not matter to the public.
If he does pull out he will be remembered for being a good egg, it's a no-brainer in my view. He still gets to go to the Olympics this time, gets a good chance next time and will be loved the world over for being selfless and such a good sport.

[Linny]

To clarify, I was talking about Stevens not Krogh.

[Phil Tanner]

That's the trouble in a nutshell - if Stevens steps aside, he'll be a national hero, if Krogh does he'll be the answer no-one can get in next year's pub quiz.

[No Fear!!]

I think it's fair that thorpe isn't swimming because why should the rules change for just one person. just think of any age group swimmer who is always beaten by the same person for their whole career. This may be stevens only opportunity to go to the olympics in the 400. He earnt his place fairly and thorpe needs to face it that anyone can get disqualified - including him.......

[Steve]

yes... but he has chosen to turn it down. I think he feels that if stevens pulls out, he is not the man to take his place. It's all v difficult.
He turned it down even before the AOC and Australian swimming had taken legal advice which concluded that he shouldn't be picked if Stevens steps down, so either way it wasn't his chance to go to the Olympics.

[Linny]

That's the trouble in a nutshell - if Stevens steps aside, he'll be a national hero, if Krogh does he'll be the answer no-one can get in next year's pub quiz.
That's almost exactly what I was going to write and then deleted it because it sounded so cruel.

[chris_lamb]

I think it's fair that thorpe isn't swimming because why should the rules change for just one person.

They aren't. The rules allow for another member of the squad to be selected if someone withdraws.

[Bazza]

Good point from KatieBun worth debating - would Sweetenham take him? I don't think he would.

[otter cub]

Thrope made a mistake, why can't he just put his hands up say "yes it happens to the best of us" and get on with it?! Its not as if he's not going to the olympics to swim other events.
Its unfair that Stevens is even being put under this pressure to withdraw, he didn't make the mistake and earned his place in the team for the 400 as well as the 1500!
If the rules says the trials is where it counts, then thats what they should mean!! :banghead:

[No Fear!!]

Thats what i meant thorpe shouldn't be picked because he got disqualified. they have to stick to the one start rule especially at top level competitions.

[swimbuoy]

Whatever happens, it has to be noted that putting Thorpe back in would be setting a precedent. Even if the rules are changed, the change would be retrospective, which is not sporting.
One extra point, what sort of example is set to our young club swimmers if, at that level, you can make such a huge mistake and get away with it?
Bill Sweetenham is tough enough to point out to our swimmers that it's what they do on the day that counts. The same should apply in all qualifying sessions.
....I'll get off my soap box now!

I believe Bill would take Thorpe if he were a British swimmer........you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers!!

[Steel City]

............but as ever one rule for one, one rule for another.

Lets face it he'll be there Stevens will suddenly develop a broken finger nail, and up steps your man... wait and see.

[ruthcp]

I believe Bill would take Thorpe if he were a British swimmer........you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers!!

....and if he was one of his 'liked' swimmers, who did what he was told maybe!
:rolleyes:

[Steve]

Good point from KatieBun worth debating - would Sweetenham take him? I don't think he would.
Except that he would have no choice about taking him, since he qualified for 5 other events.

[Steve]

Thrope made a mistake, why can't he just put his hands up say "yes it happens to the best of us" and get on with it?! Its not as if he's not going to the olympics to swim other events.

I wish people would stop saying things like this - I've said it before and I willkeep saying till until I'm blue in the face :cry: ;) - from the moment his DQ was upheld, Thorpe has never complained about his non selection for the 400m, in public at least. As the big man said himself at the trials "I have accepted that I will not be swimming the 400m in Athens, everyone else needs to accept that as well" (or words to that effect). He has been about the only person in Australia who has, as you put it, "just got on with it", unlike the media who have blown the whole thing massively out of proportion, and it is them (NOT Thorpe) who have been putting pressure on Stevens to withdraw. I agree it's unfair on him to be under that pressure, but it's hardly Thorpe's fault.

[Steve]

Very interesting article on the whole sorry situation: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/23/1082719627502.html

[KatieBun]

Except that he would have no choice about taking him, since he qualified for 5 other events.
I know that, Steve, but I feel strongly that, world class or not, the rules should apply. Bill Sweetenham expected the Brits to do it on the day of qualifying. After all, the same applies in the Games themselves. If you ain't got it on the day, there are no second chances. Surely it's safer for the reputation of the sport if the rules are strictly adhered to by everybody! What's happening to sport nowadays? Scottish school football teams are returning the score to nil-nil at half time, if there's a big difference in the score! What's the matter with good old fashioned competition? People need to learn to FAIL! Coping with it and getting back up is good, character-building stuff! We weren't wrapped in cotton wool when I was at school. (In the middle ages!)

[KatieBun]

Steve, I should add that I very much respect the way Thorpe has reacted. I agree that it's the media who have hyped the situation. I'm just frustrated by the way healthy competition is being thwarted.

[Bazza]

Steve you know I meant for the 400m!

KB, you also could have mentioned that newspapers aren't allowed to report on one-sided scorelines, nor use words such as 'thrashed', which could be damaging to the poor losers. Ridiculous!

Swimbuoy, you say you think Bill would take him as you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers, which I agree, but it looks like Foster won't be going. Fair enough even Foster isn't in Thorpe's league, but still...

[ruthcp]

Swimbuoy, you say you think Bill would take him as you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers, which I agree, but it looks like Foster won't be going. Fair enough even Foster isn't in Thorpe's league, but still...

My point earlier was that Foster won't be going because he is not liked by Bill, as he does not follow his training to the letter (so we are told!).
It is a difficult issue, and I tend to agree with KatieBun when she says that if you don't make it on the day, that's tough!
However, I think we should judge how 'fabulous' Bill is once the Olympics are over!

[KatieBun]

My point earlier was that Foster won't be going because he is not liked by Bill, as he does not follow his training to the letter (so we are told!).
It is a difficult issue, and I tend to agree with KatieBun when she says that if you don't make it on the day, that's tough!
However, I think we should judge how 'fabulous' Bill is once the Olympics are over!
I'm with you there, Ruth. Note how reticent Bill is being about our prospective medal tally. I'm eagerly anticipating August 14th onwards. Thankfully, I'll be back from hols on 15th, so I won't miss too much.

[KatieBun]

I believe Bill would take Thorpe if he were a British swimmer........you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers!!
A minor pointette here, at the risk of inciting a riot on the thread. If an exceptional swimmer makes such a rudimentary error as falling in, he surely still has to take the consequences. (Poor Thorpe. He's been very fair. He's accepted it. I wish everybody else would!) Nobody is disputing his right to his other events.....just the right of Craig Stevens to be accepted as the one who did qualify! I just hope that he isn't villified if he doesn't do what their team would like him to do!

[swimbuoy]

Swimbuoy, you say you think Bill would take him as you have to make exceptions for exceptional swimmers, which I agree, but it looks like Foster won't be going. Fair enough even Foster isn't in Thorpe's league, but still...

Well if I were Bill I would take Foster, at least he would make the final of his event unlike a lot of the squad.

[swimbuoy]

A minor pointette here, at the risk of inciting a riot on the thread. If an exceptional swimmer makes such a rudimentary error as falling in, he surely still has to take the consequences.

More of a freak event than a rudimentary error. He has never done it before & will never do it again so lets hope he gets to swim.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the Athens organisers, FINA, Austrailian Swimming & the general public all hope he gets to swim!!

[Phil Tanner]

I'm with you there, Ruth. Note how reticent Bill is being about our prospective medal tally. I'm eagerly anticipating August 14th onwards. Thankfully, I'll be back from hols on 15th, so I won't miss too much.

Funnily enough we'll be in Australia for the 14th, flying out on the 16th to somewhere I doubt will have much coverage. Will be fascinating to see how they televise it, been a couple of times but never during a major sporting event. Impression from the radio is they are wildly patriotic but not ITV-gung-ho cringe-making.

Steve Pullbuoy - is it all signed up to one network, of free for all?

Will keep the Swimclub shirt I am about to order crisp for that weekend!

[KatieBun]

More of a freak event than a rudimentary error. He has never done it before & will never do it again so lets hope he gets to swim.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the Athens organisers, FINA, Austrailian Swimming & the general public all hope he gets to swim!!
He is swimming, just not in that event! I wish my son had been allowed to stay in for the final and say, as you are advocating, "I've never done it before and I'll never do it again!" (Just my little joke!) One rule for everybody is fair! Even Thorpe knows that!

[KatieBun]

Funnily enough we'll be in Australia for the 14th, flying out on the 16th to somewhere I doubt will have much coverage. Will be fascinating to see how they televise it, been a couple of times but never during a major sporting event. Impression from the radio is they are wildly patriotic but not ITV-gung-ho cringe-making.

Steve Pullbuoy - is it all signed up to one network, of free for all?

Will keep the Swimclub shirt I am about to order crisp for that weekend!
We'll be flying back from our Australian sojourn on 14th, Phil, arriving back on 15th.

[Steve]

Steve Pullbuoy - is it all signed up to one network, of free for all?
The Olympic coverage is signed up to Channel 7 (whose channel id logo in the corner of the screen has had the Olympic rings under it since the beginning of the year :rolleyes: ) but they let SBS (sort of like Channel 4) show the less popular sports like greco-roman wreslting and modern pentathlon.

[Steve]

I know that, Steve, but I feel strongly that, world class or not, the rules should apply...<i>snip</i>...Surely it's safer for the reputation of the sport if the rules are strictly adhered to by everybody!

But the problem I have with this argument is that no rules have been broken. If the original DQ had been overturned or the selection crtieria rewritten purely to get Thorpe on the team for the 400 then you would have a valid point, but that's not what happened.

Thorpe was correctly DQ'ed and subsequently not selected. Stevens has every right to withdraw if he wants to (although we can of course be cynical about his motives for doing so) and if he does withdraw the AOC have every right under the selection criteria to offer the swim to Thorpe.

Mind you even if they do there's still no guarantee that Thorpe will swim it either way, especially if he thinks Stevens was unfarily pressured into withdrawing, and it was reported in today's press that there is still a strong possibility that Hackett will be the only Aussie representative in the 400 in Athens.

[KatieBun]

.... and it was reported in today's press that there is still a strong possibility that Hackett will be the only Aussie representative in the 400 in Athens.
That would be a shame. I think, whatever happens, the media hype means that the event will remain dogged by controversy.

(Perhaps "rules" was the wrong word; it's a little emotive and too strong. Criteria fits better.)

[Steve]

From the Sydney Morning Herald:

Thorpe's manager, David Flaskas, said: "Ian has never wavered. Ian would only consider doing it if he was convinced that Craig wasn't pressed into giving it up. Publicly and privately he has told Craig he will support him whatever the decision."

Full story: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/24/1082719674005.html

[KatieBun]

As I previously stated, I was always impressed by Thorpe's dignity in the face of the press almost "telling him what he was thinking."

[Bazza]

Once again yesterday it was suggested to me Thorpe doesn't want to swim the 400 any more, and that his 'fall' could have been intentional. Maybe Stevens will withdraw and Thorpe will decline the swim, making an excuse of the media pressure etc. Krogh has said he won't do it so maybe Hackett will be the only representative for Australia in the 400.

[chris_lamb]

Bill Sweetenham expected the Brits to do it on the day of qualifying.

Not true. There is provision in the selection criteria for:

a) Swimmer who are injured at the trials to swim at a later date
b) Swimmers who reach the time in one event to swim in others for which they reach a lower standard.

[KatieBun]

Not true. There is provision in the selection criteria for:

a) Swimmer who are injured at the trials to swim at a later date
b) Swimmers who reach the time in one event to swim in others for which they reach a lower standard.
I'm talking about expectations!

[Phil Tanner]

(Monday 0915 am) Stevens has indeed withdrawn from the 400.

[Steve]

(Monday 0915 am) Stevens has indeed withdrawn from the 400.

Yeah, just saw it on the telly; hardly surprising. Thorpe will confirm what he's doing tomorrow.

http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/archives/000058.html

[chlorine_babe]

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/26/1082831492169.html
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/26/1082831493638.html

[GettingFaster]

Some very good quotes from the first article:
"His decision to stand aside in the men's 400-metres freestlye is unselfish and typifies the spirit and comradery with the swimming ranks."
"We applaud the manner in which Craig and Ian Thorpe have conducted themselves over the past four weeks."

[chlorine_babe]

bbc (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_sports/3627903.stm)

[Bazza]

But do you think Hackett really means what he says? Isn't he secretly wishing he could double up on the 15 and the 4?

[Sean]

But do you think Hackett really means what he says? Isn't he secretly wishing he could double up on the 15 and the 4?

Maybe he will anyway ;)

And anyone who thinks Thorpe won't swim it now must be mad :rolleyes:

[Steve]

Maybe he will anyway ;)

And anyone who thinks Thorpe won't swim it now must be mad :rolleyes:
And he is doing it after all (now there's a surprise...;))

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/27/1082831543274.html