scottish nationals in glasgow next week

[lane4]

With the final opportunity for Brits to qualify for the Worlds coming next week in Glasgow at the Scottish Champs there is a huge entry from British clubs and the top British swimmers. This will obviously bring some great racing north of the border and a chance for the Scots to compete against the best in the UK but it also has negative effects on Scottish swimming. Some Scottish swimmers have found themselves rejected from events that they had achieved consideration times for because of too many entries and the need to limit heats. Obviously, a reduction in the number of Scottish swimmers able to get into 'their' meet is harmful to these swimmers as they miss the chance of experience and the chance to post qualifying times for future meets. They have worked hard all year but get knocked back just because lots of fast English swimmers enter. Some people will scoff at this as such swimmers are never gonna make it anyway they would say. If they are good enough they would qualify. But it is not all about the elite of top few swimmers. There is a responsibility to ensure that all levels of the sport are catered for appropriately.
On a similar note, even the better Scot swimmers are going to suffer too as many are going to miss out on making finals as these finals will be full of Britain's best - not Scotland's best eight. So bang goes experience and further chances for them to improve times. This is especially so since there are no semi-finals or consilation finals at the meet.
What d'y'all think???????????

[outside smoker]

Yes - this is a tough one. There are clearly a number of issues that need addressing.

1. The rejection of people 3 or 4 seconds inside the time standard was always going to cause problems with the increased entry from GB swimmers meaning Scots missing out. The REAL problem here is that Scottish events have a Consideration Time which does not guarantee a swim as opposed to the (superior) ASA one where meeting the QT does.
A simple switch would solve those no-swim blues.

2. Scots missing out on finals at their home champs also is a bitter pill to swallow for some - most events are going to be MUCH harder to make finals in than the Grand Prix Finals in Manchester. Especially with no semi-finals as you pointed out. Obviously with a 3 day meet semis are impossible for all events so this is a problem waiting to happen after you make the champs one to all.
Again I think the major problem is a lack of Long Course meets - this makes the no second swim scenario a bigger problem as it deprives Scots of a much needed Long Course opportunity. There are just not enough long course meets up in Scotland - MUCH fewer than England. Solution - more long course meets..........and a longer National Championship with Semi-Finals?

3. On a brighter note the introduction of "Age on the Day" has certainly stirred things up in the Age Group Section. Swimmers who thought they would be dead-certs for Gold are now struggling for medals - this looks certain to drive up standards.

Looks like there are no easy answers but lets hope that those with power to do so can make some changes for the better.

My first suggestion would be to lower entry costs - lets try and keep all swimmers in the sport and competing over a range of strokes and distances.

[lane4]

Yes indeed, lower entry fees are a must if the sport is to be preserved in full at the grass roots level. Working on the 'coal face' I see every week what the exponentially growing meet enrty fees are doing to swimmers and their families. Swimmers should not be forced to choose between what events to enter for financial reasons.

It is also crucial in my opinion that Scottish Swimming moves to a QUALIFYING not CONSIDERATION standard for its National Championships. Whilst this will not make any difference to the winning time (as was used as a reason not to do this recently) it will help to raise standards over the course of time as entry will be by the standard SASA sets and not by how many people can be crammed in. It will also give ordinary joe swimmer a much better goal to aim for throughout the season. We must remember that there are many more swimmers out there who view Scottish Nationals as their main meet of the year than those swimmers who use Scottish Nationals as a stepping stone to more important events.

[Off His Block]

I also had concerns when I heard that the Scottish Open Champs were going to be the last qualifying event for the World Champs, for the very same reasons that you have stated. We should make this competition a closed event for Scots only.

[outside smoker]

The ASA Long Course at Crystal Palace and the ASA Age Groups at Sheffield are really the English Open and Age Group Championships and the climax to the English season - should they be closed too?

Or do we Scots want to have our cake and eat it too?

[BigFish]

I had typed in something along those lines a couple of times, but didn't dare sumbit it ;-)

One of our age-groupers was done out of a National Bronze a few years back by, I think a Welsh swimmer. He wasn't very pleased!

Personally, I think the finals (and semis) should be closed (or if the pool has lanes 9 and 10, allow the 2 fastest *foreign* qualifiers to compete in those), while still allowing anyone to take part in the heats.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

I think some of you might be missing the point here. We compete at the Olympics, Worlds, Europeans as Great Britain. Bill Sweetenham is the NPD for Great Britain. Hence, we need to think of swimming on a British basis. Socially, Britain is split into 4 different countries. However, for British swimming's sake we should not think of Britain like that. We must consider Britain split into different regions of which Scotland and Wales are 2 of these regions; others being North, North-East, Midlands, South, South-West (i.e. the current swimming Districts in England). Each of these regions runs their own long course senior and age group championships. None of these events should be closed, although some are at present and there is a move to change that. The lack of long course facilities means we [Britain] cannot afford to restrict excellent long course competition opportuinites to our swimmers. Hence, make the region's championships 'open'. However, make sure that medals are presented for the top 3 swimmers from the home region and a commemorative gold medal also presented if the winner is an 'outsider'. Although run by the ASA, the ASA National Age Groups (and the soon to be introduced ASA Youth Championships) should be viewed as 'British' Championship competitions and promoted to all British clubs. This is now what happens in the ASA Inter-Counties after the 4 districts of Scotland and 2 from Wales were added a couple of years ago. Run by the ASA but actually a British competition.

[outside smoker]

I agree totally - i was making the point that we (in Scotland) cannot close our meets then expect to have all the other meets open to us.

It seems obvious to open up all these "regional" events to facilitate more long course (and higher quality) competitions.

Then all we would need to do is weed out all the "meaningless" extra competions that alot of kids do. Just because its relevant for some swimmers doesn`t mean you need to take your whole squad/club. Or do you?

[BigFish]

Don't forget that some people take great pride in making the final of a district or county championship, whilst never standing much chance at qualifying for Nationals, etc. By making all these championships open to anyone, and allowing all to participate in finals, you stop those weaker swimmers from achieving the recognition they deserve. I stand by my original suggestion of having closed (or partially closed) finals and leaving the heats open to all. This may also encourage swimmers to enter a wider range of events, knowing that they won't get a second swim on their main one, while also encouraging them to swim fast in heats, etc.

I might be looking at this from a different perspective, here in Yorkshire we no doubt have a dissproportionate number of long course meets available to us (Leeds and Sheffield). However, turning District and County champs into (effectively) little Nationals will only encourage the very best swimmers, leaving nothing for those who aren't quite at that level.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

Originally posted by BigFish:
turning District and County champs into (effectively) little Nationals will only encourage the very best swimmers, leaving nothing for those who aren't quite at that level.
[/B]

I very much doubt that it leaves NOTHING! Yorkshire and North East District qualifying times are not that hard and are decent achievable goals for virtually all club swimmers to work towards. Making a final at Yorkshires and North Easterns has historically always been hard enough anyway as this region and county are Britain's best so any outsiders are not going to walk into finals. Also, what about all the local district, open and club meets that still go on week after week. Do these constitute nothing?

[Pete]

Surrey has become very elitist in it's county champs, much to coaches disgust. In some events they only accept the best 12 in each age group. With over 30 clubs that is sad considering the dropout rate. Nevertheless a South African was able to swim time trials. What's that all about?

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Looking forward to hearing from fellow coaches and keen swimmers needing help.

[BigFish]

Lane 4, my point is that if the best in the country are allowed to compete in any county/district championship final, then those local swimmers will be pushed out. If you have 8 lanes for a final, and 3 top national swimmers take part (from different parts of the country), then 3 local swimmers get pushed out of the final.

Sure, they may well make a final in a local open meet, but that doesn't carry the same prestige as a county final. What is the point in having county champs that can be won by someone living 100s of miles away -- it is no longer a *county* champs!

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

The point is that age group swimming and county championships are a means to an end not an end in themselves. The are stepping stones on the way to becoming senior swimmers at national or international level. Hence, such meets should encourage and welcome the hgihest level of competition possible as people will achieve more the tougher the racing is.

[BigFish]

In that case, is there any need for B grade meets, club championships, etc. We may as well open up every comp to absolutely anyone. While we are at it, why not forget about age groupings. If you want tough, you've got it (just not many competitors, I fear).

Sorry, but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

"When the going gets tough the Dartes swimmers get out" - this has been a popular saying for many years among swimmers in the Yorkshire and North-East regions of swimming. ;-)

The results in Sydney proved beyond all doubt that Britain does not have a squad of tough swimmers, whereas the Americans were tougher than tough throughout the whole team. Funnily enough, America has the toughest age group, club and university competitions in the world. Hmmmm...

There is a place for competitions at all levels of the spectrum (A grade, B grade Z grade, whatever grade) but the tougher those competitions are the better the results will be in the long run.

[BigFish]

Originally posted by lane4:
"When the going gets tough the Dartes swimmers get out"
Oh, now we're getting personal ;-) Probably true at the moment though :-(

I'm not trying to suggest that tough competitions don't result in good results. I'm simply suggesting that what's best for the creme de la creme isn't necessarily best for swimming as a whole.

Keeping county and district champs closed (at least the finals) helps to encourage those who aren't quite of the highest standard to stay in the sport. Who knows, later on they may reach that level, but if they drop out in their early teens through lack of success we will never know.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk

[lane4]

I would suggest that anyone who quits swimming because they did not get through to the final of the county or district championships is just using that as an excuse for a more prominent dissatisfaction for the whole sport on a much greater level.

[BigFish]

Or maybe it's a toss up whether they continue swimming or a different sport. Maybe their friends are winning things at another sport and can't see why Johnny continues swimming when he never even makes finals!

This does happen now (don't tell me you've never witnessed it). Allowing the top swimmers in the country to compete in County Championships *will* prevent good swimmers from getting the recognition they deserve. Don't forget, it is likely to be only the very best swimmers who bother to travel to different County champs around the country (only likely national qualifiers). These people will always walk into finals at county and district level.

I agree that this will help <EM>toughen up</EM> the 1 or 2 elite swimmers to be found at county level, but it won't do anything to encourage others. Alternatively, limit them to heat swims and you encourage them to swim fast in heats, which encourages the local swimmers to swim fast in heats, etc. It should also encourage them to swim different events, as they know they will only get one bash at their #1 event.

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David Cuthbert (www.dartes.co.uk)
news@DaveC.org.uk