Technique or Metres

[Pete]

Have the maximum metres brigade disappeared in favour of informed coaches keen to get technique right over long reps of freestyle?

With my squad getting only 6 hours a week I concentrate a lot on drills and technique. With most of my swimmers are competing over 100m; is this the right way to go or should I plough my squad up and down 6000m+ every session. I know where my preferences are and I get pleasing results and very little injury problems in training.
What do you think?

------------------
Looking forward to hearing from fellow coaches and keen swimmers needing help.

[Linny]

For me - neither should be exclusive even in only 6 hours. And to say "plough up and down" is a little emotive - perhaps complete long sets at as high an intensity as can be sustained for a long period with little rest in order to complete maximum meterage would be better - but then again maybe not ;)

[rubber ducky]

from a swimmers point of view i would say drills and technique work is just as important as longer distances because in the end it is poor technique that is going to get you DQ'd in a race. However this is not saying you shouldnt do some sets on longer distances. A longer warm up or maybe 1 session every (or every other) week that aims for longer distances would be an idea.

[mad4it]

we do both. last night we did 7500m in 2hrs which is fairly average, but did lots of technique work incorporated. this morning we did more 'ploughing' on a 4x800m fc set as our main set. i presume as ur swimmers r only doing 6 hours a week they r young? i would then b concentrating much more on technique as it will be harder to change it as they get older. if they r 13-16 then they should probably being doing more metreage as they need to develop those muscles and have some sort of power in the water. a swimmer with perfect technique and no power will not win the race, but the swimmer with perfect technique developed when young and power added when older will win the race. just my opinion tho. :king:

[Katie]

With my club we do a mixture of technique and metres, usually getting in about 40 K a week, sometimes a bit more. But I go and do some morning sessions to get my meterage up, doing sets my coach gives me and stuff and that just tends to be ploughing up and down. Heavy metres stuff is pretty boring, and if they only have 6 hours each week I'd think they'd much rather work on technique than be bored... but that's just my opinion :)

[lane4]

But I go and do some morning sessions to get my meterage up, doing sets my coach gives me and stuff and that just tends to be ploughing up and down.

Is this the same coach who does not believe in morning training!?

;) :p :devil:

[lane4]

we do both. last night we did 7500m in 2hrs which is fairly average, but did lots of technique work incorporated.

7500m in 2 hours. That equates to 100m every 1 minute 36 seconds including rest time. I'm thinking you don't do much kick, drill, breaststroke, backstroke or butterfly work in that then? I have a squad with numerous good British national level endurance based swimmers in it and we would really struggle to do 7500m in 2 hours, in fact we never do as much as that.

When you say you had lots of technique work in it what do you mean specifically?

[lane4]

It is a real concern of mine that many people appear to think it's all about the number of metres you do. Although those concerned may claim otherwise at times, I find that this attitude prevails almost everywhere I go in British swimming. In my opinion, the balance of the content and intensity of sessions is far more important than the volume but when people talk about training they invariably discuss volume as though its the main priority. You only have to see some of the other posts on this thread and other threads to get a brief insight into this. We have national squads, regional squads and a lot of squads in clubs who apply criteria in volume terms, i.e. if you do not do X volume then you will be kicked out. Very little, and often no attention, is given to what the actual volume swimmers do is made up of. It is a big worry.

[Pete]

Why wasn't this thread interesting when I posted it coming up 2 years ago?
Thanks for reviving it rubber ducky.

[Conrad Cawley]

In my opinion, the balance of the content and intensity of sessions is far more important than the volume

Lane 4 you are so right!

[rubber ducky]

Why wasn't this thread interesting when I posted it coming up 2 years ago?
Thanks for reviving it rubber ducky.

No probs!!

[Kaci]

last night we did 7500m in 2hrs which is fairly average:

One of my clubs over here did 10,000m in their 3 hour session. It was just a shame I was at student nationals ;)

[Katie]

Is this the same coach who does not believe in morning training!?

;) :p :devil:
Oui!! Crazy that!

[mad4it]

7500m in 2 hours. That equates to 100m every 1 minute 36 seconds including rest time. I'm thinking you don't do much kick, drill, breaststroke, backstroke or butterfly work in that then? I have a squad with numerous good British national level endurance based swimmers in it and we would really struggle to do 7500m in 2 hours, in fact we never do as much as that.

When you say you had lots of technique work in it what do you mean specifically?

i mean we always swim with perfect technique and if we have any problems or corrections to be made we will be told about it at the end of that particular repetition and then work on it on the next one!! simple really. :devil:

our 7500m set was:

W/UP: 1400m in total of mixed strokes (cant remember what coz i dont write the warm-up in my log book)

Threshold: 4 x 400m fc on 5.45
8 x 200m fc on 2.55

Aerobic/Technique: 16 x 100m bc dec 1 - 4 on 1.40
* Hold SC and maintain perfect technique *

Aerobic/Technique: 4 x 300m as 50 fc, 25 IM kick on 4.40

S/D: 100m choice

so there wasnt really too much drill work but definately more than u r making out. :p

[mad4it]

One of my clubs over here did 10,000m in their 3 hour session. It was just a shame I was at student nationals ;)

yeh we did that not too long ago. it was quite good actually!

the most we have ever done in a 2 hour session is 7950m. i will look for it in my log book when i get home from school!

this morn we did slightly less,but mainly because there was more technique type work: total 6700m:

W/UP: 1600m mixed work.

aerobic: alt. 6 x 100m bc kick as f/lhs/rhs/b on 1.50
6 x 25m bc kick max speed. on 30

aerobic/technique: 6 x 200m bc as 2x alt. double arm & 10kick1pull
2x alt. single arm & 10kick1pull
2x swim all on 3.15

aerobic: 400m fc on 5.30 8 x 75m alt. fc/bc on 1.15
*even sc*
300m fc on 4.20 4 x 100m IM on 1.40

200m fc on 3.00 8 x 75m as above on 1.15

S/D: 300m alt. 50fc/50bc
200m alt. 25fc/25brs
150m choice

lane4 it is possible to do both distance incorporated with technique. ur swimmers must b quite slow if they couldn't do anything but fc swim to make 7500m in 2hours! :king: :p :devil:

[lane4]

i so there wasnt really too much drill work but definately more than u r making out. :p

Adding up the total time taken for your 4 x 400, 8 x 200, 16 x 100 and 4 x 300 I calculate that you had 28 mins 20 secs remaining in the 2 hours to complete the 1400 warm-up and 100 swim down. That's quite possible but still tight and does not leave much room for explanation of sets or rest gaps between sets.

As for my swimmers not being fast enough, well one or two are but as a group they are not. I use different rest times depending on the ability level of the swimmer concerned. When I do technique work I really mean that to be short reps with long rest and lots of coach explanation/feedback/interaction after each rep. I do not consider aerobic sets with stroke correction points between reps to be 'technique work', rather it's just normal good coaching practice.

[Linny]

That's funny cos I make it 28 min 20 secs left mind you my maths is probably dodgy too.

[rubber ducky]

hmmm is it just me or is this thread turning into a competition to see who can do the most metres in training in the fastest time?!?!

let me just say it also depends on the size of the pool. at uni i train in a 50m pool. at home i train in a 17m pool. obviously i do more meterage at uni

[chris_lamb]

That's funny cos I make it 28 min 20 secs left mind you my maths is probably dodgy too.

Very odd, I make it 37 minutes. Someone has got some maths wrong :D Probably me.

[Pete]

I really don't think 7500 for anyone other than top level senior swimmers is neccesary. It is just going to result in burn-out eventually. As for putting quality strokework into it; I really think that is not possible off those times. Swim the first hour at that sort of pace and then take the intensity out to work on technique, starts and turns. That would be my approach and look at covering about 6000m. Meterage should not be done at the expense of quality.

[chlorine_babe]

We would do approx 6000m in a two hour session alternating between technique work endurance sets etc.

[swimmer]

6000 is v.little meterage tho! we would have that for an easish session. Most so far have been around 6300-over 7k

[lane4]

All coaches have to ask themselves, what can I do that will lead to the fastest rate of improvement in my swimmers?

Is it possible that swimmers can make more physiological/technical/psychological/tactical improvements with a volume of 4000 in a 2 hour session as opposed to 6000m. Likewise can they improve more doing 6000 than 8000m? If volume is the answer then why not just do a straight 2 hour swim every session? However, people tend not to do this so why don't they? What are they gaining by not doing a straight volume swim? Variety? Preventing swimmer boredom? But why then do people squeeze 7000/7500/8000 in as opposed to taking more time over 5000/6000?

I find it impossible to believe that anyone who trains an average of 7000m or more per session spends any significant time practicing relay takeovers, developing starts, working regularly on detailed aspects of technique, correcting turning faults, doing long rest basic speed work, doing lots of kick (without fins), learning new skills and drills, floatation work and sculling. For me, those things all take time and thus have much smaller volume ratios to allow a 7k average.

[londoner62]

Can someone please sort out the maths in this forum?

Paul

[mad4it]

I find it impossible to believe that anyone who trains an average of 7000m or more per session spends any significant time practicing relay takeovers, developing starts, working regularly on detailed aspects of technique, correcting turning faults, doing long rest basic speed work, doing lots of kick (without fins), learning new skills and drills, floatation work and sculling. For me, those things all take time and thus have much smaller volume ratios to allow a 7k average.

lane4, im not sayin that we do that exact set every single session. our session meterage varies from 5600m to 7500m. if we are doing an anerobic speed set then obviously our metreage will be some what less. but surely as a coach u can see that lactic tolerance wouldn't work if u did it with lots of rest.??!! our squad weekly average is 60K. (however since ive bn ill not yet made it back up there as im not attending all the sessions yet) we do relay takeovers at the appropriate time of year - whats the point in practising relay takeovers if ur not going to b doing relays till June???. we sometimes have extra sessions or 1/2 an hour added to our session to do floatation work.(lynn will now about that because the head coach at her club is the :king: of floatation!!and we get all that too!) and we r constantly correcting all sorts of faults and no we dont do kick with fins very often. we just have a coach who pushes us to our limit well knows our strengths and weaknesses and works to improve them, and we dont stand around between sets chatting! :devil:

i'd say on the timing thing for my 7500m session. lynn was probably right as the warm-up took like 22minutes and we had spare time at the end coz we got out at like 7.26pm (session is from 5:30 - 7:30) :king:

[lane4]

lane4, im not sayin that we do that exact set every single session. :king:

Mad4it, please note that my last post was not aimed at you or your squad, it was a much more general response regarding the topic of volume as a whole and some pondering questions on the subject. Nowhere did I say you do every session like that (although you must acknowledge that you did say 7500 in 2 hours was average for you). I do know both your coach and the 'floatation king' very well and I know they are extremely good coaches producing quality results.

I must pick you up on lactate tolerance work however. My understanding of LT work is that long rest between sustained maximal effort bouts of work is the whole point of the exercise.

You say your squad average is 60k. The point I am making here (and remember this is not aimed at you personally or your squad) is that can swimmers make the same rate of improvement, or perhaps an even better rate of improvement with a lower (e.g. 50/40/30k) average? And if they can, should that then be favoured over higher average volumes which by natural consequence carry greater risk of injury or illness?

[swimbuoy]

So are we saying that volume is guided by what has produced results in the past rather than any proven scientific research??

Are coaches suggesting that all kids are the same physically, physiologically & psychologically ie they all ought to do 50-60k per week?

Of course we all really know that this is not the case & what works for one swimmer may not work for another. Surely this is the art of coaching ie dealing with the individual & how to get the best out of them.


I am not suggesting that the coach writes individual sessions for each swimmer as this is not practical but perhaps a certain swimmer would do less volume because that is right for them.

[mad4it]

I must pick you up on lactate tolerance work however. My understanding of LT work is that long rest between sustained maximal effort bouts of work is the whole point of the exercise.
well my feeling when we LT work was that we really werent gettin much rest! not until the end that was!! i suppose im not a coach so dont no what exactly its supposed to be like! (all i no is that LT sets are always really hard!!! :p ;)

You say your squad average is 60k. The point I am making here (and remember this is not aimed at you personally or your squad) is that can swimmers make the same rate of improvement, or perhaps an even better rate of improvement with a lower (e.g. 50/40/30k) average?

i think it depends on the distance you are aiming to compete in. if ur aiming towards 1500fr/800fr/400im then high meterage i would say is required for you to have stamina/strength towards the end of the race. however if ur a sprinter there would be no need on working thousands and thousands of metres per week, concentrating on the little things u needed to improve would be far more worthwhile.

And if they can, should that then be favoured over higher average volumes which by natural consequence carry greater risk of injury or illness?

i dont think u can say illness or injury is caused by higher average volumes, it can be due to any number of reasons. i didnt get ill because i was working hard! im sure u all no the main passer of glandular fever!!! ;) however it could be true that if rest isn't taken appropriately u could get ill, but that could still happen when doing 30k/40k/50k.

[GettingFaster]

Isn't there a cyclical thing that's supposed to happen? Speaking as a non-coach but an interested bystander :read: I am under the impression that the average meterage per session changes week to week. The cycles are roughly 13 weeks, starting at one level of meterage and working up, then tapering down again. I'd need our head coach to come out from behind the 'guest' tag and explain it properly! (here, kitty, kitty...) :D

[Linny]

Flotation :king: huh?? Heard him called lots of things before but not that and believe me if you had ever swum in the same lane as him you would say NOT :rocket:

[Bogbloke]

i roughly work it out to be about 27 to 28 mins left for swim down at the end of mad4it's 6700m set. This is accouting 20 mins for the 1600m warm up which is really a bit too fast so make it 25 mins it would be 22 mins left for SD.


The main body of the set takes 73 mins doing it at them times so it is quite possible that about 7000m done in this time with about 22 mins for swim down.

[Bogbloke]

as regarding the 1st set (the 7500m). It takes 92 mins to do the main set which leaves 28 mins to do the warm up and swim down. So say 20 mins for 1400m warm up, it leaves 8 mins for the swim down, again it is quite possible.

[Unfit]

this is an interesting topic. i had one coach who actually used to use the term 'garbage yardage' when setting some of our sets. ie, he was actually wanting us just to get some distance in. we often were set off on the whistle and had to count how many lengths we did until the next whistle, which could be anywhere between 5-30 minutes away. as long as you're swim fit, don't they say that the most improvement in times can be made by improving technique, not fitness? i mean, i know you have to stay fit, but it is a more effficient use of time to improve your stroke/turns/starts etc than to concentrate on more meters in the pool. so when i set the sessions for my kids, who are the new kids to the squad, age 7-10, i look at incorporating mostly stroke work with the occasional longer set to work on stamina or speed, and always, in every session, have 15 minutes on starts or turns. but then this would alter for older swimmers who need less stroke work, only stroke refinement during sets.
Lane 4 - is there any chance in hearing about the sort of sessions you set and what the aim of each set is (ie, explain this bit of stroke at start of set and pick out swimmers individually if they're not doing it - or no specific stroke discussion on this set). that goes for the other coaches on here as well. i've got alot to learn in the coaching side of things and find it very interesting to see what sort of things other coaches do.

[Gareth Eckley]

I think that he ASA needs to do a lot more than it is in terms of technique. I have only been in the UK for 18 months. In that time i have been working through the ASA courses. Even in the level 2 course, i learnt nothing about technique that i did not already know and in fact we were being taught a lot of info that was out of date 10 years ago !

The tutor did not seem to know about a lot of the changes in technique: lower head position, front-end fly, shoulder-shrug initiated arm recovery, new glide position, even pressure kicks ( up-beat and down-beat same force ), 2 shoulder shrugs on breast underwater glide and pull out, keeping eyes looking down on fly and breast breathing, new flip-turn technique, push-off on side not on front, basic drill progressions to teach proper undulation for fly and breast, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

In fact he was still teaching the exagerated "s-curve" pull, and was unaware of the the new info on Drag versus Lift in swimming propulsion and how working in an "unsteady flow" renders useless all those nice diagrams on Lift that are in the level 3 course book.

I will do the level 3 this year and i hope that the technique sections will cover this and more, but somehow i doubt that it will be in there.

I feel that the top coaches in Britain MUST know all of this stuff, but when is it going to filter down to the majority of coaches and teachers. If you only went by what the ASA teach you then you are in trouble. What is frustrating is that this a lot of this info is in the books sold on the ASA site, but is not in their syllabus.

Back to the original question, you need great technique and enough metres covered in training to reach the top. Sloppy technique and loads of metres will not get you any medals and will condemn someone to never acheive their potential.

Wow, I feel better for getting that off my chest ! Sorry if i upset anyone !

[Bogbloke]

whats the Drag versus Lift in swimming propulsion??
whats the 2 shoulder shrugs on breast underwater glide and pull out??

[Gareth Eckley]

whats the Drag versus Lift in swimming propulsion??
whats the 2 shoulder shrugs on breast underwater glide and pull out??

Breaststroke pull out: 1st shoulder shrug as you transition from the glide ( elbows behind head, not over ears ) into the arm pull-down, you shrug the shoulders forward to get an extra inch or two of reach into your extended hands. This also reduces your frontal profile area ( helping to reduce drag ).

2nd shoulder shrug is as you finish the pull-down, hands move in a keyhole pattern, hands finish at hips. If you shrug your shoulders back at the finish you will reduce the drag created as you have reduced the area of your frontal profile.

Drag versus Lift has been one of the central areas of debate in swimming for years. Use a google search or read a recent text book. There is a ton of research in this area and a lot of recent research is questioning the Lift dominated theory of swimming. We have all been taught to use Lift maximising actions ( s-curve pull, hand angle of attack, etc ) while top swimmers use pulling actions that instead tend to maximise drag forces.

Their pulling patterns are straighter than the s-shaped pull action and recent research suggests that strong lift forces cannot act on the hand as if it was a 'foil' as the water is in an unsteady flow state which does not allow the boundary layer to bond effectively.

[mad4it]

Breaststroke pull out: 1st shoulder shrug as you transition from the glide ( elbows behind head, not over ears ) into the arm pull-down, you shrug the shoulders forward to get an extra inch or two of reach into your extended hands. This also reduces your frontal profile area ( helping to reduce drag ).

2nd shoulder shrug is as you finish the pull-down, hands move in a keyhole pattern, hands finish at hips. If you shrug your shoulders back at the finish you will reduce the drag created as you have reduced the area of your frontal profile.

thats really interesting, might try that when im in the water tomorrow!! ;)

[Linny]

I don't think that you should be surprised that "finer tuning" is not covered in the level 2 course (nor even in level 3) when you consider that these courses are only N/SVQ level 2 and 3. There is simply not the time to cover the depth that you are looking for, although I have to confess that I would be disappointed if tutors had never even heard of lift/drag differing theories.

Drag versus Lift has been one of the central areas of debate in swimming for years and it still is. It was certainly discussed when I did my level 2 and again on my level 3 course - but not much more than discussion as there are still such differing opinions on the subject. It is not possible therefore possible for tutors to say what is right and wrong - especially when considering that Mr Maglischo et al change their minds with every new publication.

Also, the kind of specific details you are referring to with the breaststroke arm pull are not as I understand them matter of fact, merely an option that suits some - you only have to look at an elite level breaststroke race to see the huge variations in stroke styles.


If you want to learn more about swimming technique and specifics then your best bet (rather than to go on an ASA course) is to talk to like minded theorists. I don't mean to devalue the ASA courses but the theory is pretty basic for any well read individual with "passion for excellence" (I like your homepage).

Talking theory is one of the reasons I joined this forum and I like your posts but I have to confess that I do enjoy the drivel too!

[lane4]

especially when considering that Mr Maglischo et al change their minds with every new publication.


For the very latest on the lift/drag topic make sure you book into the BSCTA Annual Conference to hear Mr Maglischo himself present lectures that will cover this area of debate and others.

The conference takes place 2-4 January in Coventry.

Booking forms can be downloaded here...
BSCTA site (http://www.bscta.com)

[Gareth Eckley]

Lynn, I am pleased to hear that you also feel that the ASA course info on technique is not comprehensive. I know that it is quite basic, but it could easily be more up to date, and not any more difficult to learn.

I am doing the ASA coaching courses because they are the" only game in town !". I have learnt a lot from them, in the fields of pool organisation, club issues, child protection etc. Most of the course material is very good and well presented but I do think that in terms of stroke development, they should be doing more. The log book for the level 3 course does cover a lot of ground.

I should keep quiet tho ! as i still have the level 3 to do this year, and the level 4, hopefully the year after and i do not want to be blackballed !! Oh, and "the drivel" on this site can be very entertaining !

Lane 4's sessions sound good. I wish i was in Scotland to be able to try them out !

I will be at Coventry in Jan for the BSCTA conference. They have a great line up of presenters and i am looking forward to hearing them.

[Linny]

I should keep quiet too, I haven't received my results! :p

[Linny]

I feel I should also say that the courses I attended for my level 2 and level 3 were both great experiences. They were run by two very different but very knowlegeable and capable tutors. I learned a huge amount from them both and from the other candidates and wouldn't have missed the courses for anything. :angel:

[Gareth Eckley]

I feel I should also say that the courses I attended for my level 2 and level 3 were both great experiences. They were run by two very different but very knowlegeable and capable tutors. I learned a huge amount from them both and from the other candidates and wouldn't have missed the courses for anything. :angel:

I feel that i need to "chill out" on this subject ! It does get me going though!

I am going to send the ASA education dept, the info that i feel could be covered, but is not, and leave it to them. It may be that i was unlucky with the 3 tutors that i have had so far.

I intend to do the level 3 at Millfield this summer, unless the Welsh ASA get a course together at Swansea first. I think that it will be a great experience, and hard work.

[Linny]

This is an interesting thread from a while back.
What has changed during the past years? Yes it is, I used to enjoy threads like this before I decided not to post under my own name, thank you Blob. :wave: What has changed during the past years?
Do you mean where have all the interesting threads gone? Well I guess we stopped talking about swimming.Original posters, it would be interesting to see how you have progressed with your programs.Well, the Club I was with at the time are doing very well but I am no longer there and then started up a new Club in my home village where there hadn't been a Club before. The swimmers there have a maximum of 4 1/2 hours a week in the water and we are making progress (slowly) on a technique based programme (difficult to do anything else when that is all that is currently available and so many of them are new to swimming).

Not sure mad4it visits anymore but her team (well the one she was with at the time) is making good progress having produced swimmers who went to the Commonwealth Games, European Championships and European Juniors.

I don't think Gareth Eckley visits anymore either, don't know why, but he still posts actively on other swimming forums I visit so maybe he got fed up of SwimClub. I don't know how he/his programme is doing, I'll ask him to visit to update us.

Conrad doesn't visit anymore.

I am sure lane4, Pete and Katie can answer for themselves because they are just about hanging on here.

have I missed anyone?

How are your swimmers doing Blob and what are your views on technique or metres?

Oh and how come lane4's edit of his rubbish math doesn't show up so that I look like I am repeating his numbers and he got it right when I can remember thoroughly enjoying correcting him cos he got it wrong?

[Katie]

Thank you for the update linny, i really did enjoy reading it :)

I am still here, still at the same club, still doing a mixture of lots of metres (well, I think it's a lot but it would probably be just a main set for becky cooke!!) with lots and lots of technique at the same time. Doing a lot more land work and since I have started running I have increased my intake of flies, and I'm yet to see the effect of that one. Most importantly I am still enjoying myself :D and it's going ok so things are fairly jolly. Looking forward to getting the exams out of the way now. I may not post that often any more but i don't really feel I have a lot to say on lots of the subjects... but I am still here! :)

[jimmyswimmer]

Just been reading through this thread, and the thing is, its not all about bombing up and down making swimmers beasts at endurance and tolerance, because they'll get to a point where they can't go any faster because their poor technique wont allow it. I train under Dave Hobbs at camden, and he's the head county coach, and a well recognised figure within british swimming. We don't ever do sessions over about 6500m, because dave doesn't see it necessary. I used to swim for Barnet, then Enfield and we did little or no work on technique, just mullering sets over and over and over. Now this made me good at endurance, but when i came to camden i realised i had it all wrong. Dave set a lot of technique work, and i have improved my freestyle technique heaps, and i can now swim faster times with . (having said that, going on a training camp with gina helped so much, she knows a lot about technique). another thing i noticed about camden was the focus on the mental side of swimming. How do the coaches on this forum approach this factor?