British Long Course - March - Manchester [Archive]

Chris

25-11-2004, 11:25 AM

Programme (http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-161253-178468-81257-0-file,00.pdf)

Qualifying Times (http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-161254-178469-81255-0-file,00.pdf)

Entry Information (http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-161252-178467-81259-0-file,00.pdf)

KJ89

25-11-2004, 11:45 AM

well i havent got any of them lol

lane4

25-11-2004, 12:00 PM

Some of them are a lot faster than I expected.

Anyone know why there are no qualifying times and no event for the men's 800 and women's 1500, despite the fact that these are contested at the Worlds?

Also, wondering why there is no space on the entry form to enter the 50 fly, 50 back and 50 breast?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Top10ranking

25-11-2004, 03:01 PM

might get the 100back otherwise nothing :(

Natasha

25-11-2004, 04:51 PM

They really took their time in getting the qualifying times, we actually rang up to find out when. And their excuse was that they only just had the venue confirmed, but surely you dont need the venue to decide the qualifying times? And I think they got them up too late, because if the entries have to be submitted by around the end of February (I think) then there's only a limited number of open meets to enter.

I've got the 50m free qt, trying for the 100m though that should prove to be very hard work!

Bazza

26-11-2004, 11:30 AM

Also the times are alot faster than for Commie Trials in August?

Kate

26-11-2004, 01:41 PM

[QUOTE=Natasha] And I think they got them up too late, because if the entries have to be submitted by around the end of February (I think) then there's only a limited number of open meets to enter.

QUOTE]

I agree with you Natasha - 16th Feb is the closing date (I think) - so if you haven't already entered a meet in Jan, then you just have Districts this weekend.

Gina

26-11-2004, 02:00 PM

I've got the 50 free too! My pbs would get me the the three other 50s. My aim is to get all the 50 qualifying times :) .

The 100 free's 58.6 :shocking: !!! I'm not sure i'll get that one, its a toughy.

Nevilles polish

11-03-2005, 06:53 PM

Before the swimming starts next week can someone tell me why the qualifying times for this summers world champs and indeed the world university games are much faster than the Australian times. We seem to be following the aussies in orientation camps, stage meets etc but then give no encouragement to those who will reach finals but have no realistic chance of a top 12 time.
The Australian times will give many finalists that chance to perform on the world stage.

lane4

11-03-2005, 07:09 PM

Before the swimming starts next week can someone tell me why the qualifying times for this summers world champs and indeed the world university games are much faster than the Australian times. .

Because, for us, it has been decided that its all about the Olympics, everything else is a preparation for winning medals at the OG. And so, our standards for meet selection are set deliberately tough so that only those with a realistic MEDAL chance get to go.

glen_75

12-03-2005, 08:01 AM

Because, for us, it has been decided that its all about the Olympics, everything else is a preparation for winning medals at the OG. And so, our standards for meet selection are set deliberately tough so that only those with a realistic MEDAL chance get to go.

And how will this policy improve GB's future olympic medal prospects?

Top10ranking

12-03-2005, 10:34 AM

might get the 100back otherwise nothing :(

got the 200

londoner62

12-03-2005, 10:36 AM

got the 200

Good Man :king: :king:

wendy

12-03-2005, 10:46 AM

lane4

12-03-2005, 06:08 PM

And how will this policy improve GB's future olympic medal prospects?

I did not say it would, I merely explained why our QTs are so fast for Neville. Others will be able to explain better than me why it will improve our future Olympic medal hopes.

Linny

12-03-2005, 07:21 PM

I did not say it would, I merely explained why our QTs are so fast for Neville. Others will be able to explain better than me why it will improve our future Olympic medal hopes.
Not the usual type of response we get from the lane4 we know and love.
"Others will be able to explain better than me...." well, well, well... :devil:

Taxiandbank

13-03-2005, 05:20 AM

I'll look forward to watching that Matt, and will look out for others from here.
Travelling up Tuesday, expect to have DVT by Sunday!! ( I'll be the one twidling my ankles and wondering again why I can't find the bar inthe aquatics centre)
It is sooo much more stressful watching your loved ones compete than doing it yourself, do any of you find that?

Agree totally. Major stress time ahead but outward calm so as not to appear overly concerned. Worry about selection to games, worry about a programme which doesn't take into account a chap who is a good 50m freestyler and 1500m freestyler. Nearest bar? Student Union round the corner. Maybe we could pass for mature students?
TandB

GettingFaster

13-03-2005, 07:16 AM

There's a brilliant pub just around the corner that does an excellent lunchtime steak and chips for less than a fiver, if that's any help.

wendy

13-03-2005, 07:27 AM

details woman!!!!!

londoner62

13-03-2005, 08:45 PM

details

For heavens sake, do NOT try the 200 IM afterwards!! Now that was hard :cry: This is the voice of experience but as the girl said, good food!

FlyingBean

14-03-2005, 12:18 PM

For heavens sake, do NOT try the 200 IM afterwards!! Now that was hard :cry: This is the voice of experience but as the girl said, good food!
I think GF would disagree with you there. She did a stonking pb 20 minutes after finishing a rather large steak meal!!

londoner62

14-03-2005, 06:39 PM

Natasha

14-03-2005, 08:14 PM

Well I'll be leaving some time tomorrow. So good luck to everyone who is racing! :)

wendy

14-03-2005, 08:58 PM

Good luck Natasha... Will highlight you in my programme (if I had a highlighter... oh well I will remember to cheer you on instead)

Really must get highlighter, stopwatch, clipboard bottomless bag of bananas before they ban me from the gallery for being an unfit swimming mum :rolleyes:

lozswimmer

15-03-2005, 07:11 AM

Well I'll be leaving some time tomorrow. So good luck to everyone who is racing! :)
Good luck Natasha :) and everyone else swimming!

Katie

15-03-2005, 08:20 AM

See you there Natasha, first stop 100 back for me!! My start is as original as ever... haha! Good luck everyone!

crawler

15-03-2005, 09:00 AM

Ah good it starts tomorrow. It looks like there will be live results via the ASA website so I'm hoping the boss keeps away.

Good luck to all swimmers from here, not to forget Wendy in coping with the stresses of the gallery.

I think there will be some real breakthroughs at this meet - can we open a book?

gazagroove

15-03-2005, 10:56 AM

er nimrod, clearly and insane swimmer.
He is ridiculously fast, 2;05 for 100 back, long course!
and hes 15 at the moment but 16 at nationals,
still, stupidly fast

Top10ranking

15-03-2005, 03:48 PM

er nimrod, clearly and insane swimmer.
He is ridiculously fast, 2;05 for 100 back, long course!
and hes 15 at the moment but 16 at nationals,
still, stupidly fast

faster than the fastest austrailan for our age :shocking:

lozswimmer

15-03-2005, 04:00 PM

Does anyone know where I can find the results?

KJ89

15-03-2005, 04:33 PM

Good Luck Tash and Matt and anyone else swimming.

KJ89

15-03-2005, 04:33 PM

Does anyone know where I can find the results?
On the ASA website i should think when it starts

No Fear!!

15-03-2005, 05:25 PM

Is it going to be on tv? just wondering? good luck to everyone who is swimming.

londoner62

15-03-2005, 06:21 PM

Is it going to be on tv? just wondering? good luck to everyone who is swimming.
Looks like BBC have their usual highlight program on Sunday. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tv_and_radio/grandstand/4351465.stm

londoner62

15-03-2005, 06:36 PM

Big shout please for me little cousin (Mark) please as I cant be there to make my voice heard!

londoner62

15-03-2005, 09:42 PM

Does anyone know where I can find the results?

http://www.swimmingatsportcentric.com/sports/swimming/results/2005/gblc05/webpages/index.htm

FlyingBean

17-03-2005, 08:52 AM

Big shout please for me little cousin (Mark) please as I cant be there to make my voice heard!
L62 - just shout from where you are, you'll be heard!! :devil:

lane4

17-03-2005, 10:12 PM

No experience=no success.

92 - Kyoko Iwasaki
96 - Amanda Beard
00 - Liesel Jones
04 - Dani Gyurta

No experience but yet major success at the highest level. LOTS of other examples exist also.

Nevilles polish

18-03-2005, 09:01 AM

92 - Kyoko Iwasaki
96 - Amanda Beard
00 - Liesel Jones
04 - Dani Gyurta

No experience but yet major success at the highest level. LOTS of other examples exist also.

Behave Lane 4, there are always going to be exceptions but in General there is no substitute for experience.

GettingFaster

18-03-2005, 09:06 AM

Behave Lane 4...

You are kidding, of course? :devil:

londoner62

18-03-2005, 04:54 PM

got the 200

The stat :read: fans will be watching for you in the morning fella, GOOD LUCK

lane4

19-03-2005, 01:26 PM

Behave Lane 4, there are always going to be exceptions but in General there is no substitute for experience.

They clearly are not exceptions though. They are just a small sample of how many swimmers can achieve big without experience.

selkie

19-03-2005, 02:19 PM

And there are plenty of swimmers who have very rough times with nerves and high expectations in their first international meets and end up choking from the pressure. From the US swimmers, Katie Hoff had the talent to medal in the 400IM in Athens this year but didn't even make it out of the prelims after a horrendous swim. She figured it out a little more in the 200 IM, but still wasn't quite swimming to her potential. Then, with her first big world level meet under her belt, she swam much, much better at short course worlds.

A couple years back, 13 year old Dana Vollmer's first national team experience involved a trip to Australia for the Goodwill Games had her in tears on the pool deck from the pressure and heckling crowd. But she learned from the experience, and was rock solid in Athens. Every time she swam, she was stronger, and she was a key part of the 800 free relay gold medal and world record squad.

I also think the Sydney experience did a world of good for Michael Phelps and really helped him prepare for his great swims in Athens. I can't quite figure out his world ranking prior to Sydney, but I'm guessing it was somewhere in the 8-12 spot. In 2000, the US didn't really have depth in the 200 fly, and the second Olympic spot after Tom Malchow was seen as one of the softer/easier places to get your ticket to Australia. No one knew Phelps was going to end up swimming as well as he did in Sydney.

Top10ranking

19-03-2005, 09:18 PM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!

crawler

19-03-2005, 09:41 PM

Well done and fear/nerves are all part of the learning process, so think about those feelings, recall how they hit you and at what stage, and think about the positive things you did.

lozswimmer

20-03-2005, 06:09 AM

Well done Matt! :):)

EssBee

20-03-2005, 07:46 AM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!

Well done for qualifying for the trials, Matt. It's all experience, in my view, and perhaps it will all seem a little less overwhelming the next time.

EssBee
:wave:

GettingFaster

20-03-2005, 08:03 AM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!
Well done indeed. If I had a hat I'd take it off to you. :D You should be very pleased with your performance, as it's the first of many good swims at that level so you have lots more to look forward to.

Phil Tanner

20-03-2005, 08:39 AM

And Matt turned out for the evening session of our county championships as well, had some fresh cards made out and got on with it.

KJ89

20-03-2005, 08:41 AM

well done matt

chlorine_babe

20-03-2005, 12:14 PM

Don't know if you've seen this before but it's interesting to see other peoples opinions of the british qualifying criteria. US swim forums (http://www.usaswimming.org/usasweb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=84&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en)

Ok it will only link to front page the thread is in fans titled US trials no longer toughest in the world.

Phil Tanner

20-03-2005, 12:54 PM

Majority view there seems to be that if you set your QTs for a major championship that little bit too tough, you risk sending swimmers who are exhausted by the qualifying process and can't perform when they get there. I think I go with that.

I was away from TV completely for nearly all the Olympic swimming last year and couldn't really get a feel for how it went when I got back, but was this a view widely aired during the games about the Athens performers who didn't come up to scratch?

Also I notice someone on the US forum posted a slightly sarky comment along the lines of "I guess the Brits want to send a small team", but might that be a factor? That we can only afford to send a few swimmers, so set times only a tiny number will get?

selkie

20-03-2005, 04:12 PM

I didn't read the comment as snarky or as some sort of financial judgement on the state of the sport. It's just that setting the standards so high really does seem to structurally set things up so that you're going to be sending a small team and it seems short-sighted since you do get swimmers who drop a lot of time between Trials and Olympics/World Championships. One that really comes to mind was Kaitlin Sandeno dropping near six seconds off her 400 IM time last year and putting a big scare into Klochkova in Athens.

Top10ranking

20-03-2005, 05:15 PM

And Matt turned out for the evening session of our county championships as well, had some fresh cards made out and got on with it.

yeah thanks phil

KatieBun

20-03-2005, 05:20 PM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!
Very well done, Matt. Swimming at that level is a huge achievement in itself. Good for you. We'll keep watching with interest.

Top10ranking

20-03-2005, 05:22 PM

i must have been the only one there without gb tracksuits and bags

Spidey

20-03-2005, 05:59 PM

Believe it or not, I have the 200m Back qualifying time, if I were doing it freestyle and short course though. :king: :wave:

glen_75

20-03-2005, 07:50 PM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!
Is that why you have :aarrgghh: in your sig. This is what your expression is like up on the blocks? :p

Just pretend it's the same guys from the regional meets in the adjacent lanes, which it probably is in most cases.

glen_75

20-03-2005, 08:01 PM

RE: The Draconian Q standards.

Major oversight is the fact that rankings can be bunched up. Theoretically, you can have people withing a 1/2 sec or sec from world #1 ranking and still not qualify. Mel Marshall was > 1 second within her #1 ranked swim last year and yet she doesn't qualify. That needs to be corrected.

Nice to see McClatchey come through with a nice swim. I do believe her time meets the standard does it not?

I might be able to fit the British team in my hatchback. They could always inquire for some complimentary tranportation. :devil:

Swimmer's ATM

20-03-2005, 08:33 PM

Matt,

"Well Done" - saw you swim yesterday, knew your name from these forums (and you're close by at Amersham) noticed you in the Start Sheets and made a point of watching.

As someone else has said "getting there is a huge acheivement", when you get there again it will be even better !

Not everyone has the GB swimming kit - it's just that when you want it, that's all you notice (my son went through the same thing a year or so back).

Just one observation (helpful I hope rather than a criticism) - how little you leg-kick coming off the wall during the turns, some big dolphin kicks could bring you some big improvements in your times. Apologies in advance if you think I'm talking rubbish.

My "Congratulations" are genuine - I look forward to seeing you compete again.

Have Fun
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Top10ranking

20-03-2005, 08:44 PM

Matt,

Just one observation (helpful I hope rather than a criticism) - how little you leg-kick coming off the wall during the turns, some big dolphin kicks could bring you some big improvements in your times. Apologies in advance if you think I'm talking rubbish.

lol yes i know that only to well

londoner62

21-03-2005, 12:14 PM

swam this morning, i was very scared :shocking: . didnt pb but came 4th in (89) my coach said that many other coaches were inquiring about me so thats good!

Congratulations on qualifying in the first place Matt, next year will be easier because of the experience.

Bazza

21-03-2005, 02:49 PM

I am generally of the viewpoint that having the times too hard sends out the wrong message and could have a negative impact on those who could go and do well. I also felt last year many swimmers were forced to peak at trials and therefore could not make further improvements in Athens. Many of our swimmers were significantly slower in the summer than in the spring.

However, when Bill explained one of the reasons for setting hard qualifying times on Sunday it did make sense => by taking only the swimmers who are serious medal prospects, everyone on the team is aiming high and confident of doing well. He said something like Australia will take 36 swimmers and 30 will win medals. If Britain take 36 swimmers and win 4 medals then most of the swimmers are not performing near that level. If you take 10 swimmers and win 4 medals (hopefully more) then most of the team are achieving and this breeds confidence and success.

EDIT: Also, for all the criticism of some of the performances at this meet, when you consider that we have 10 swimmers on the plane already, and maybe another 10 who could get the times in June and have pretty much said that's what they were aiming for anyway, despite about 10 members of our Olympic team from last year retiring, I think they've done pretty well. Considering we have a small-ish group of swimmers at that level, to lose 10 but still have 15-20 who can make a top 10 in the world time is actually very good.

wendy

21-03-2005, 03:09 PM

londoner62

21-03-2005, 04:14 PM

FlyingBean

21-03-2005, 09:02 PM

Well done Top10 - well deserved after all your hard work.

adamlelean

22-03-2005, 08:48 AM

My view is if you make the QT at the trials before the final, you are on the plane if you are within a % in the final.
I think it is wrong that you can make the grade once or twice and still not be selected.
The argument would be that if you can't do it in the final you can't do it on demand. The pressure is going to be greater in the final, if you buckle under pressure in the final what chance have you got at the final of a bigger meet.

crawler

22-03-2005, 11:02 AM

The argument would be that if you can't do it in the final you can't do it on demand. The pressure is going to be greater in the final, if you buckle under pressure in the final what chance have you got at the final of a bigger meet.

Whereas I feel that if you have swum the QT during the Trial and then gone on to prove you are a racer by winning the final that should be sufficient.

Anyone can buckle under pressure, but equally they might rise to the occasion at a major meet and are being denied the chance.

As I see it:

1/ it must be hugely demotivating for a swimmer to miss the experience of a major comp having done the QT but not in the final. Is it right to effectively say hah well just learn from it!

2/we run the risk of discouraging fast swims in the heats and semis in an effort for swimmers to save something for the final.

Think about how many times in Olympics you see faster times set in the semis than in the final. We are just shutting the door on swimmers we know have the capability to achieve something for no good reason.

One final thing - setting the QTs as 10th fastest time in world last year obviously aims to produce finalists. I don't think it would have diminished the team by setting times at 16th to give us swimmers capable of reaching at least the semis. The experience of swimming 2 races at this level must be invaluable.

Draws breath....

Bazza

22-03-2005, 12:03 PM

Yes but Crawler it would be interesting to see if times were set at top 16 how many more swimmers would go. Might have a go later. We have taken a big squad before and it does mean if you have a bad swim we've taken them all the way to Canada for a heat.

Also worth noting that Kate Haywood did not win the final either - not sure if you realised that or not.

Competitive Dad

22-03-2005, 12:08 PM

Didn't he say that Hungry took 9 swimmers and 7 got medals!!
I like the man and would like to give him a chance, what he has achieved with the young girls is outstanding, and they will just get better

Not wishing to diminish the terrific acheivements of the 13/14 yo girls (Jessica Dickons particularly was awesome) BUT this is a risky strategy if your only one ... they've got a long way to go in terms of physical development and everything could change.

I hope this isn't the case, but I can name many who looked like World Beaters at 13/14, who had alot of investment from British Swimming and who are nowhere now - please don't ask me to name them as I don't want to embrass or upset them ... just get hold of results from Age Croup Champs over the last five years and they will jump out at you.

Phil Tanner

22-03-2005, 12:19 PM

One final thing - setting the QTs as 10th fastest time in world last year obviously aims to produce finalists. I don't think it would have diminished the team by setting times at 16th to give us swimmers capable of reaching at least the semis. The experience of swimming 2 races at this level must be invaluable.

To bend over backwards to be fair, isn't it not top 10 outright but top 10 counting only two per country? So if there were four Aussies and three Americans in the top 10, 14th would do?

Bazza

22-03-2005, 01:03 PM

OK this is how the team might look if we were going of top 16 times - this is only a guide though as the closest rankings I could find were Barcelona-Athens inclusive, whereas I think the actual times used were Calender Year 2004 times.

Men
200 Free - David Carry and Ross Davenport
400 Free - David Carry
50 Back - Matt Clay
200 Back - Gregor Tait and James Goddard
50 Breast - Darren Mew
100 Breast - James Gibson

Women
200 Free - Melanie Marshall and Caitlin McClatchey
800 Free - Rebecca Cooke and Kerri-Ann Payne
200 Back - Melanie Marshall and Gemma Spofforth
200 Breast - Kirsty Balfour
50 Fly - Ros Brett

Also worth considering in events without semi finals, do you take someone who is ranked 16th when they appear to have little chance of making the final, and is it unfair to have different qualifying standards for different events?

And yes Phil you are right, it is top 10, 2 per nation.

Bazza

22-03-2005, 01:10 PM

crawler

22-03-2005, 01:34 PM

Thanks for clarifying the QT rules Bazza and Phil.

Bazza good job on the "alternative" team - what a wonderful balance of experience and youthful talent, and what a great shame it isn't the real mccoy (subject to stage 3 meet).

I haven't looked at trial results in enough detail to see who is within striking distance of qualification at the Stage 3 meet.

Just concentrating on Mel Marshall's 200 FS for a mo - her winning time of 1.58.50 would have won the Aussie trials too. QT is 1.58.36 but what if Mel fails to hit this in June. Isn't she one swimmer who definitely would benefit from competing in a major meet to exorcise the demons from Athens?

17-19 June for the meet - will be interesting.

lozswimmer

22-03-2005, 02:39 PM

I think that beacuse the qualifying times are so hard, you should be able to qualify if you get the times in the heats and semi's too because it might just be one not-so-great swim in the finals that would lose you the whole oppurtunity, whereas you have already proved you are capable of swimming it a day or so beforehand

lane4

22-03-2005, 03:07 PM

To bend over backwards to be fair, isn't it not top 10 outright but top 10 counting only two per country? So if there were four Aussies and three Americans in the top 10, 14th would do?

Correct! Its based on 2 per nation.

glen_75

22-03-2005, 06:09 PM

The top 10 requirement from an olympic year assumes that anyone outside that doesn't have realistic medal chances. This is obviously false as Mel's case demonstrates. It doesn't account for bunched up rankings either.

Now Mel will have to compromise her preparation programme for Montreal in order to swim at her best when she would otherwise be in the middle of hard training. Even those that support the regime would have to agree this a serious flaw that needs to be addressed. Otherwise, this policy clearly does become an obstacle to swimmers rather than an incentive (if it ever really was in the first place).

Steve

22-03-2005, 07:26 PM

On a side note, what do people think of using last years times towards qualification - in this instance if you did the time in Athens you've already qualified? Could extend this to say you have to finish in the top 2 at trials still.

Advantage is that your top swimmers don't need to peak in March, disadvantage is will they be able to repeat that performance this year?
That happened before Sydney IIRC - Paul Palmer and Sue Rolph (and maybe a couple of others) prequalified at 1999's european champs and just had to prove their fitness at the trials, rather than win the event or swim particular times. I have to say, with 20:20 hindsight of course, that the policy wasn't the most successtul in terms of the results it produced at the Olympics, although at the time I fully supported it and still think there are positive arguments for it.

One disadvantage, though, is that you reduce the number of spots up for grabs at the trials themselves so if two other swimmers suddenly step up and swim amazing times then you can't take them to the championships, even if they are medal hopes.

Bazza

23-03-2005, 01:11 PM

Which is why I said if you had a prequalified swimmer they should still need to finish in the top 2. If they get beaten by 2 swimmers who do the time then they miss out.

Crawler- if you want to look for people likely to do the times in June, surely I just named them? Swimmers who weren't hitting top 16 times at trials will struggle to hit top 10 times in June, with one possible exception!

crawler

23-03-2005, 02:15 PM

Crawler- if you want to look for people likely to do the times in June, surely I just named them? Swimmers who weren't hitting top 16 times at trials will struggle to hit top 10 times in June, with one possible exception!

Ahh so you did!

One notable exception - lol I hope so but it seems to need a big drop to make it - 6/10ths over 50?

So the relays are 5th time in the world eh - real shame for Julia and co if they don't make it.