Nationals 2005

[KJ89]

the draft programmes now up on the asa site

http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-167561-184779-91622-0-file,00.pdf

and

http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-167560-184778-91623-0-file,00.pdf

[Taxiandbank]

:rolleyes: Lori Perry seems to have changed sex (W200 fly) a 5 year old from Horwich has crept in.

Interestingly Karen Pickering only entered for the 50 free.
TandB

[hannahbanana]

why is the first like 10 names in italics?? wat does that mean??

[wendy]

They qualified with short course times

[hannahbanana]

o ok dat makes more sense- so is it alot better to qualify with longcourse times then?? sorry for the silly questions but i haven't got a clue about this one!!

[wendy]

o ok dat makes more sense- so is it alot better to qualify with longcourse times then?? sorry for the silly questions but i haven't got a clue about this one!!
No problem, we are a friendly bunch who like to help if we can!
I hate to say it but I've learnt loads from this site..... some of it to do with swimming too :rolleyes:

[Gina]

I've been entered as swimming for Chalfont! What's that all about? I clearly put Teddington Swimming Club. Can they not read? It's not even close!

[Top10ranking]

lol i used to swim at chalfont. im sure all will be sorted

[Top10ranking]

Simon Burnett 1.54???

[Gina]

Simon Burnett 1.54???

That's the time he did at the Speedo Grand Challenge in California. It's probably one of the only LC 200 frees he's done all season as most competitions in the US are in yards. I think he'll go a bit faster than that!

lol i used to swim at chalfont. im sure all will be sorted

Yep, it should be. I'll call them to sort it out. I've had to call them before as they've forgotten to enter me into a race last year!

[kingofthepool]

mmmmmmmm intresting

[Phil Tanner]

Shame that having very sensibly set single-year youth qualifying times, they then run a double-year competition. It halves the number for whom an outside lane in a national final would be a career high. I know that would define you as a loser in the eyes of British Swimming, but they need to be careful or the drift to other sports will acclerate - look at the number of meets at all levels cancelled or curtailed this season for lack of entries.

[Taxiandbank]

Shame that having very sensibly set single-year youth qualifying times, they then run a double-year competition. It halves the number for whom an outside lane in a national final would be a career high. I know that would define you as a loser in the eyes of British Swimming, but they need to be careful or the drift to other sports will acclerate - look at the number of meets at all levels cancelled or curtailed this season for lack of entries.
Why not run as age at end of year to prepare swimmers (and selectors) for EYOF and European Juniors?
TandB :devil:

[Phil Tanner]

Why not run as age at end of year to prepare swimmers (and selectors) for EYOF and European Juniors?
TandB :devil:

Er, why not make it by invitation only, so they wouldn't have to run an event in the interests of a group as big as the top couple of per cent, just potential Olympians? :devil:

[Top10ranking]

got my form through this morning

[Top10ranking]

Why not run as age at end of year to prepare swimmers (and selectors) for EYOF and European Juniors?
TandB :devil:


would benifit certain swimmers whos birthday were in january lets say :P

[Gina]

would benifit certain swimmers whos birthday were in january lets say :P

Nah, I say stick with age on day. That means you actually swim with the right age. I hated going to nationals and being a 16 yr old when I was only 15. It makes it much fairer if it is age on day especially for the poor people who were born at the end of December.

Haven't got my form yet but I know its coming because I made a phone call regarding my entered club and they still had it. Can't wait for Nationals!

[ruthcp]

Nah, I say stick with age on day. That means you actually swim with the right age. I hated going to nationals and being a 16 yr old when I was only 15. It makes it much fairer if it is age on day especially for the poor people who were born at the end of December.


Can you explain to me why it is fairer? :confused:
Perhaps people who are 14 hate swimming against those who are nearly 15, or is that way around not so unfair?
Agreed, if you are born in December age on day is 'fairer', but if you are born in July, it's the other way around, wouldn't you say?

Wouldn't be because you're an October birthday now would it? :p

[Pink Paraffin]

Age on day is the only fair system. I'm 15, you're 15, we're all 15 on this particular day, so let's race against each other and see who's the best. How is that unfair?

However, selections for WC Programmes (Age and Youth) should be based on age as of 31st December if we're looking to win the medal tables at EJC's and EYOF's (that's the age definition for these meets). That way everyone gets a different bite of the cherry - either an advantage for the meet or an advantage for the programme selection

We've a swimmer in our programme with a birthday on 31st July. She competes in NAG's as a 13 this year and, if the calendar stays as they say it will be, she will be 13 at the 2006 NAG's as well. However, she never had the chance to swim the NAG's as an 11 as she was deemed to be 10 one year and 12 the next!!

Surely we've exhausted this debate before?

[ruthcp]

Selection to WCP has, in the past, been based on performance at NAGs.
How can that be fair, if on the day you are 14 and don't make it because someone's who turns 15 the next day gets there instead? :confused:

I was merely responding to a comment about 'fairness' or otherwise, which is exactly what the forum's about.
If this question arises time and time again, it may well be because there has never been a satisfactory answer?

[speedoqueen]

I live in France, where all the age group competitions are swum with age on 31 December, and I think generally the principal of age on day is good because the outcome is less predictable.
The problem is that the most important event of the year for many age group swimmers in the UK falls in July/August every year, so those with spring and early summer birthdays will always be at a slight disadvantage at Nationals.

Some countries in Europe have a second Nationals in November or December, usually short course. I know it is quite early in the season, but with the UK age on day system, it would give the spring/summer-born agegroupers a chance to compete at a National level with the age advantage.

[swimstar]

got my form through this morning
Form??

[H2o]

Shame that having very sensibly set single-year youth qualifying times, they then run a double-year competition. It halves the number for whom an outside lane in a national final would be a career high. I know that would define you as a loser in the eyes of British Swimming, but they need to be careful or the drift to other sports will acclerate - look at the number of meets at all levels cancelled or curtailed this season for lack of entries.


Couldn't agree with you more Phil.

Having got in as a 14 year old , baby H2o now finds she hasn't a cat in hells chance of doing anything except hopefully go further up the 14 year list, currently 51 out of 58.
Qualifying as a 14 but going to a double 14/15 is very demoralising. :cry: :cry:

Still at least she qualified. :p :p

[Phil Tanner]

Selection to WCP has, in the past, been based on performance at NAGs.

But they dropped it PDQ and now have a much less hit-and miss approach.

[ruthcp]

But they dropped it PDQ and now have a much less hit-and miss approach.

Yes - now you just have to get a 58... at NAGs for the 14 year old 100m fly (boys) to be considered automatically! :shocking:
So much less hit and miss - I'm sure they'll have bucket loads of automatic qualifiers for their programme! :rolleyes:
So encouraging! :rolleyes:

[Gina]

Can you explain to me why it is fairer? :confused:

Wouldn't be because you're an October birthday now would it? :p

As someone else just said, you are 15, you are competing as a 15 yr old and you swim against 15 yr olds. When I was 14, I was aiming for the 15 yr olds NQT and I wasn't even going to be 15 for another 2 months after!

Lets face it, either way some swimmers are going to get the short straw by having their birthday just before the cut off day (or whatever the name is), but I think this way is better as you race against the same aged people.

Anyway, I'm passed that stage now. All my National Age Group medals were from mainly breaststroke events so it didn't really mean anything sadly :(

[Dreama]

It's all just excuses, if you're good enough, you'll get there. Regardless of chronological age, if you look at biological age you'll find that the biggest & strongest 12 year old (who also may the youngest 12 year old) could match a 13 year old if their strength and development is similar. Some people will defy the odds and make the cut and some might not, using age is not always the best excuse.

[ruthcp]

As someone else just said, you are 15, you are competing as a 15 yr old and you swim against 15 yr olds. When I was 14, I was aiming for the 15 yr olds NQT and I wasn't even going to be 15 for another 2 months after!


Still don't get it - bit thick obviously. :p
Are you saying that as long as someone is 14 (or 15, whatever) on 3rd August, the fact that they are 15 on 4th August still makes it fair, etc on someone who turned 14 on the 31st July? So as long as the age on the day is stated as 14, then fairness is seen to be done and that's that?

Anyhow, as Dreama says, if you are good enough and all that stuff - only downside of that I can see is that you will undoubtedly have lost potential talent along the way.
This may not matter so much at the moment, but hopefully it isn't a policy that will have bad repercusions in the future (such as a diminishing/small pool of talent coming through).
Probably counts as an 'unshaven, unrested' style of encouragement! :p

[Gina]

Still don't get it - bit thick obviously. :p
Are you saying that as long as someone is 14 (or 15, whatever) on 3rd August, the fact that they are 15 on 4th August still makes it fair, etc on someone who turned 14 on the 31st July? So as long as the age on the day is stated as 14, then fairness is seen to be done and that's that?

If you think about it, there will always be a situation were there is a swimmer racing against someone 364 days older than them. It's just with age on day, you are swimming in your age. I swam as a 16 yr old when I was 15 and when I actually turned 16 I couldn't swim as a 16 yr old at Nationals anymore :( . It turns out I missed one of the best National age groups in 2001 - from my point of view, as they introduce 50s (I could have made every stroke) and it was held at Sheffield!!!

[FlyingBean]

I think that no matter what system is used to decide age groups, there are going to be those swimmers who are advantage or disadvantaged (relatively speaking) from any changes. In my case, my children are advantaged by this new system. Particularly my son born 23/12, age on 31/12 really didn't work for him, and being a disability swimmer, he already had the odds stacked against him.

I personally like this arrangement for age group swimming for 2 reasons:
1. You're always swimming against people your own age group
2. There is variety in your oponents at different times of the year.

I'm just glad that they still use age at 31/12 for masters. What with 5 year age bands and such a wide variety of ages, working out your competitors from a programme that only displays year of birth is difficult enough already. :p

[Top10ranking]

competitor thingy

[wendy]

The year they changed to age on day my child would have been national champion. :rolleyes:
Am I bitter? :cry:
Nooooo, several sessions of therapy and electric shock treatment have helped of course, but life ain't fair and you can never please everybody.
When the goal posts move you have to move with them, the fastest swimmer in that age category won on the day.. end of story ;)

[ruthcp]

When the goal posts move you have to move with them, the fastest swimmer in that age category won on the day.. end of story ;)

You do indeed have to move with the goal posts - to me that is not a reason to cease making what in my view, is a very good point.
Unlike FB previously, I cannot see that you are swimming against your own age group in anything other than on paper, but then she already said this arrangement suited her - also unlike her it seems, I have always believed that it would be best if the 'system' was made fairer for all by considering 2 championships.
Accepting the current goal post situation does not mean you have to stop trying to change things from within! :king:

[marrinermum]

i honestly can't see a way of pleasing all the people all the time, it is'nt possible. I personally think the idea of having 2 championships is fairer, but it won't be for all.

my son has had problems with the age in aug for nationals as he's a may birthday, but when you look at the rankings there are other swimmers with may, june & july birthdays competing and doing well, sometimes a 12 yr old boy can be a strong as a 15 yr old - its nothing to do with age - sometimes.

he's finally made it this year but thats down to sheer hard work, commitment & a coach who belived in him even if he did'nt make the times - it did'nt matter to his coach. coach saw potential.

the northern counties & lancashires this year illustrated what age can mean, for us at least. At the Lancashires it was age in April, he won loads, coming out as top 14 yr old, well he would would'nt he? he was only weeks short of his 15th birthday. Yet at Northern Counties, with age in June, he was 14 competing as a 15 yr old as the meet took place just before his birthday. naturally he did'nt do as well although he did final and improve his times. he was as happy with the improved times as he was with the medals.

I know this happens at nationals and no, it is'nt fair, but what is?

at the end of the day the best swimmers will out, and not just the best in the water but the best mentally too, but it is hard to keep them motivated when so much emphasis is placed on nqts. perhaps a shift in emphasis from the powers that be is needed? I know our coaches, although using nqts as a measuring tool do not see them as the be all & end all.

we used the 'its just an entry time for a gala' mentality & got to as many meets that worked in his favour as possible, just to give him confidence.

another question that i ponder over [having a very sad life!] is how many of the 11 yr olds who make the nationals carry on to do so at 16/17? just wondering?

[GettingFaster]

There would seem to be a sensible argument for two champs a year, a suggestion was a LC where it is and a SC 6 months later. But would you then find that one gets viewed as the "proper" champs and the other Nationals gets viewed as second-best? Would we then have people bemoaning the fact that their offspring are only advantaged for the second-best champs? There is also the difficulty of organising such a meet and fitting it into an already pretty packed competition schedule. Interesting idea though, might have some legs to run with...

[ruthcp]

another question that i ponder over [having a very sad life!] is how many of the 11 yr olds who make the nationals carry on to do so at 16/17? just wondering?

Or indeed how many who never made Nationals when young have gone on to swim for GB (or other countries)?
At a conference thing some of the folk from British Swimming were keen to point out that some have gone on to do very well even though they never 'made it' at NAGs.
Good luck to your son marrinermum! :king:

[Phil Tanner]

another question that i ponder over [having a very sad life!] is how many of the 11 yr olds who make the nationals carry on to do so at 16/17? just wondering?

Daughter will be at her fifth nationals (now 15) and several names which were very prominent in her age group over the years don't feature at all this season. She is also a good example of the early WCS programme based on times at nationals misfiring, scraping in one season but never really a potential world beater, although a very, very good swimmer. Several others in that group seem to have given up altogether, but one or two have proved to be outstanding swimmers - suggesting they should have been on WCP rather than WCS in the first place, while others on WCP fell by the wayside multo pronto.

Much better that the powers that be put their cards on the table and if they want to concentrate on kids who can do a sub-minute 100 fly at 14 (and presumably swim full-time from 16 in pursuit of Olympic medals in 2112), say as much.

[Bazza]

It's worth remembering that when people say AOD is 'fair', they mean it is 'more fair' than age at 31st December.

Ruth asked if it's really fair when someone competes against another swimmer who is 364 days older or younger. Maybe not, but unless we break age groups down even further this will always happen.

The reason AOD is more fair is because throughout the year there will be competitions where swimmers are among the oldest in the age group, and some where they are among the youngest. Compare this with having a set date for all competitions (eg 31/12) where the same swimmers are disadvantaged at ALL competitions, and the same swimmers are advantaged at all competitions.

Obviously we still have the problem with the same swimmers probably being advantaged or disadvantaged at nationals every year, but this will always be the case under any system unless we host two national championships, which doesn't seem likely, or unless the date of nationals changes every year which seems crazy.

It's also worth bearing in mind, though this may be of little consolation to certain swimmers or parents, that age group swimming is a means to an end. Ultimately it is not about how fast you are compared to other 11 year olds, but how fast you are compared to anyone and everyone. Of course we break it down because it would be most unfair to have an 11 year old swimming against a 22 year old.

[ruthcp]

The reason AOD is more fair is because throughout the year there will be competitions where swimmers are among the oldest in the age group, and some where they are among the youngest. Compare this with having a set date for all competitions (eg 31/12) where the same swimmers are disadvantaged at ALL competitions, and the same swimmers are advantaged at all competitions.


Agreed Bazza, but as swimmers tend to be 'looked at' at NAGs, what they do at other competitions becomes rather irrelevant. Personally, I would rather be disadvantaged (or my sons) at most other competitions throughout the year and be lucky for NAGs!
If a swimmer has ambitions and abilities in line with NAGs and above, other competions throughout the year don't carry as much weight. :shocking:

But to also agree with Phil ( :shocking: :p ), there are many swimmers who've shone early on and been picked for WCS etc, and they are either not swimming at all anymore, or not at the same dizzy heights they once inhabited.
There's obviously a lot to be said for perseverance! :cool:

[GettingFaster]

Doesn't this conversation kind of back up lane4's comment that what happens in agegroup competitions is irrelevant and it's ONLY the senior elite swimming world that matters? (lights blue touchpaper and retires)

[ruthcp]

Doesn't this conversation kind of back up lane4's comment that what happens in agegroup competitions is irrelevant and it's ONLY the senior elite swimming world that matters? (lights blue touchpaper and retires)

Well he is right of course! :cool:
However (didn't you just know there'd be a 'but'?), it isn't irrelevant if the system ends up demoralising youngsters to such an extent that they give the sport up altogether. :shocking:
You can just imagine how hard it must be saying to a promising youngster that although he/she is very talented, the fact that he/she gets nowhere now, may not matter in the end!
Short term goals are needed too, before you aspire to the dizzy heights of senior elite!

[Linny]

(lights blue touchpaper and retires)It's no good, I tried to resist, because this has all been done loads of times before. :rolleyes: However, I have no self control.

The "senior elite swimming world" is not all that matters (it may be all that matters to some and this is fine provided they accept that this is not the case for us all ;)) and....

age group competitions are not irrelevant for lots of reasons (although I will accept that they may have little relevance in determining a swimmers success at "elite" level), and....

to back this up, I remember (actually I had to look it up), that it has been estimated that the chances of a swimmer embarking on their swimming career in USA becoming an Olympian, is approximately 0.0002%. I guess that the chances here are similar - perhaps.... :rolleyes: and.....

lighting the blue touch paper and retiring is trollish behaviour GettingFaster and as a moderator you should be ashamed of yourself! :p

(lights blue touchpaper and retires)

[Linny]

Well he is right of course! :cool:
Ruth, are you the lane4 fanclub president? Can I subscribe, and if so can I please have a poster and badge?
PS A bendy dolly would be good if you have some and they are not too pricey.

[chris_lamb]

Isn't the entire argument about AoD/EOY rather superfluous anyway? Not all kids develop at the same rate. You may find that one of the younger ones in the age group is more developed than one of the older ones. Does this make it more fair or less fair?

[ruthcp]

Ruth, are you the lane4 fanclub president? Can I subscribe, and if so can I please have a poster and badge?
PS A bendy dolly would be good if you have some and they are not too pricey.

If such a fan club exists, count me in!! :cool:
What exactly is a bendy dolly for? :read:

[ruthcp]

Isn't the entire argument about AoD/EOY rather superfluous anyway? Not all kids develop at the same rate. You may find that one of the younger ones in the age group is more developed than one of the older ones. Does this make it more fair or less fair?

If a younger swimmer is more developed than good luck to him/her - they would probably be in that small minority that do ok regardless of age of competitions.
Statistics and plain common sense (by just looking at medallists) shows that the majority of those who medal and final, usually have birthdays late in the year, so I fail to see why the entire argument is superfluous.

[GettingFaster]

Here we go again... :o

Linny, was that a Catherine wheel your blue touchpaper was attached to? I'm sure I've seen this conversation going round before!

it isn't irrelevant if the system ends up demoralising youngsters to such an extent that they give the sport up altogether.
Indeed. Couldn't have put it better myself.

As for my quoting of Mr 2+2's previous comments, I didn't say I agreed with them, just that he'd made them.

If you'll excuse me getting philosophical for a moment, consider the question "what is a dandelion?" Is is the yellow flower, the puff ball clock thingy, the salad leaves, the swine of a root that refuses to be dislodged from the middle of the gardener's prize lawn? Actually, it's all of them. In the same way, "swimming" is all of the agegroupers of all levels, the tinies in the baby pool, the synchro swimmers doing their stuff in the diving pool, the Nationals, the Districts, the Counties, the B and C grade meets, the 18m training pools, the 50m competion pools and of course the Olympic and World class swimmers. Without any of these the sport would be weaker and it could be argued (but I'm not going to) that the sport could flounder without them.

Mr Sartre, you may have your podium back now.

[Phil Tanner]

Here's an idea - let's tell kids nationals are the thing to aim at and that while only a tiny number will have the talent, dedication, finances and willingness to put swimming before everything else to medal there, a national final is a good target. Then let's stop issuing medals to those outside the top three, so these good-but-not-elite swimmers who finish in the top 10 have nothing to show for years of effort. Then let's halve the number of finals anyway.

[Linny]

Here's an idea - let's tell kids nationals are the thing to aim at and that while only a tiny number will have the talent, dedication, finances and willingness to put swimming before everything else to medal there, a national final is a good target. Then let's stop issuing medals to those outside the top three, so these good-but-not-elite swimmers who finish in the top 10 have nothing to show for years of effort. Then let's halve the number of finals anyway.Have you been offered that job at the ASA Phil? :angel:

[FlyingBean]

You do indeed have to move with the goal posts - to me that is not a reason to cease making what in my view, is a very good point.
Unlike FB previously, I cannot see that you are swimming against your own age group in anything other than on paper, but then she already said this arrangement suited her - also unlike her it seems, I have always believed that it would be best if the 'system' was made fairer for all by considering 2 championships.
Accepting the current goal post situation does not mean you have to stop trying to change things from within! :king:
RCP - the dates in question may work well for my family, in theory, however the cold hard facts of the situation are they simply aren't good enough to get to the nationals at the moment, no matter what time of the year they're held - so I'm not really that biased. :angel: I can guarantee that my son will never make NAGs (unless they bring in disability events, and even then it would be extremely unlikely), as for my daughter, she gets closer every year, but since she only got into one district event, I don't think that nationals is high on the list at the moment.

Another thought, does this issue become less of a problem as the swimmers get older? Particularly after puberty? I don't have an answer, just curious as to what others think. At what point does age cease to be an advantage and start to become a disadvantage?

I think the idea of 2 champs a year could potentially solve this issue for some swimmers, but like GF pointed out, the calendar is already quite crowded, and it would be another major championship for swimmers to have to decide whether to taper for. Would the nationals have the same emphasis and importance in the calendar if they were every six months. I guess the competition could be moved every year to a different part of the year, but that would be an administrative and scheduling nightmare. :shocking:

[KJ89]

lets face it where ever you put nationals it is going to disadvantage someone.

[gazagroove]

where ever the cut off point is, someone loses out!

my birthday is 12th of july so im a "young" 16yr old at nats, the advantage is that im heading for harder times than if i was going for 15yr old times.

I think that age group camps arent the only thing and that birthdays in comparison to nationals shouldnt be so focused on, just swim as fast as you can!

Gareth

[RichardS]

Does anyone know how the Youth Champs semi-finals will work this year? The program isn't clear about how many semis there will be. For example will there be two semis for Girls 14/15, two for 16/17 and two for Commonwealth Trials? The program makes it clear that there will be three separate finals but just has a single one liner for the semi-finals eg Event 116 Womens 200m Butterfly Semi-Final.

[Phil Tanner]

Are there youth 200 semis, or straight to finals?

Many 100 semis last year were thinly populated because swimmers had to at least make the QT in the heat.

[RichardS]

Phil,

The semis are definitely programmed, I agree that last year some were dispensed with due to lack of numbers. There appears to be some confusion this year about how the semis will work, as a Youth swimmer can opt to take their place in the Commonwealth trials final and if there are still the same number of semis as last year they would be predominantly filled with Commonwealth Games triallists thereby reducing the number of Youth swimmers taking their place in the semis.

[Phil Tanner]

I see what you mean. The very top flight of youth swimmers, among the girls are least, might be able to make the overall Trials final, but if they pursue that would they rule themselves out of medals within the youth age group?

I think it duplicates what happens at my club when we have overall grand finals at our top meet. If a swimmer from a younger age group qualifies for the grand final, it guarantees them the age group gold. The age group finalists swim but with only the silver on offer to the winner, or the bronze if two from an age group make the overall final. I suppose it could happen that three from within an age-group make the overall final and those left in the age group final are only swimming to improve their times.

Suspect they'll have to do something like this at nationals. But you could apply a sort of "swim tough" logic and say the trials are far more important than youth nationals, and swimmers who are really dedicated should swim in the open semi/final and forgo the possible youth medal. (It would be no less logical than sending swimmers placing 4-9 home with absolutely nothing to show for a season's work.)

[RichardS]

Phil,

Looks like I might have raised a red herring. Just got an email from one of the organisers who confirms there are only semi finals for progression to the Commonwealth Trials finals, so after heats if a Youth swimmer wants to try for the Commonwealths (not sure if they would have had to nominate this on their entry form or not) they go into that semi and they forego their opportunity of a Youth medal. For Youths they will go straight to the Youth finals based on performance in the heats.

[Gina]

not sure if they would have had to nominate this on their entry form or not

I remember on the entry forms having to tick a box saying was I swimming in the trials or youth nationals. I think it might mean that if you tick 'Youth Nationals' then you can only swim in that final and if you tick 'Trials' then you can swim in the trials semis and finals.

[rogant stard]

Phil,

Looks like I might have raised a red herring. Just got an email from one of the organisers who confirms there are only semi finals for progression to the Commonwealth Trials finals, so after heats if a Youth swimmer wants to try for the Commonwealths (not sure if they would have had to nominate this on their entry form or not) they go into that semi and they forego their opportunity of a Youth medal. For Youths they will go straight to the Youth finals based on performance in the heats.

The organiser has either got it wrong or he has confused you greatly.

For a definitive version of the rules/procedures click here: http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-165695-182913-88638-0-file,00.pdf

[lane4]

The way I understand it is that you can decide after the heats which route you go down - youth or open. And you can still decide to go into the Youth final after the semis if you want. This irrespective of what box you ticked on the form. I also heard that a swimmer can win the Youth title from the Open final if their time is faster than the youth final winning time. However, I'm still not 100% certain about any of these things and have decided to just wait until the technical meeting at the meet to find out for sure. Im my opinion, it is a complete mess. It is a compromise situation because the ASA/ASFGB could not afford to hire the pool for a separate trials meet. And the question is, should we really be accepting compromise if we want to be successful?

[lane4]

For a definitive version of the rules/procedures click here: http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-165695-182913-88638-0-file,00.pdf

That explains quite a bit but certainly not everything.

[Phil Tanner]

It is a compromise situation because the ASA/ASFGB could not afford to hire the pool for a separate trials meet. And the question is, should we really be accepting compromise if we want to be successful?

Which in turn explains the shambles of setting youth QTs in single years but running the competition with double age bands.

[ringer]

Will there be access to live results from the Age Groups and Youth Championships and Commonwealth Trials for the "stay at homes"?

Could some kind person post the link if there is to be one.

[Taxiandbank]

http://www.swimmingatsportcentric.com/sports/swimming/results/2005/nag05/webpages/index.htm

A BIG but that is only by changing last year's web page. Nothing showing yet.

[Arianna]

Live Results can be found here!

http://asaftp.sportcentric.net/sports/swimming/results/2005/asaag05/webpages/

[Phil Tanner]

Taking things off to one side ever so slightly - daughter has a blank day the last but one day of youths. Any recommendations for something to do in the area? Is there any outlet shopping along the lines of those places at Swindon or Street? Say, no more than an hour's drive?

[rogant stard]

Taking things off to one side ever so slightly - daughter has a blank day the last but one day of youths. Any recommendations for something to do in the area? Is there any outlet shopping along the lines of those places at Swindon or Street? Say, no more than an hour's drive?

Meadowhall would be my recommendation. Less than 30 minutes away I think.

[wendy]

Meadowhall would be my recommendation. Less than 30 minutes away I think.
Easy tram ride! Lots to amuse young ladies there, take your plastic :rolleyes:

[Phil Tanner]

That's why I was thinking bargain basement outlet village-type shopping! :)

[Taxiandbank]

Phil, Things are much cheaper up north. So Meadowhall is excellent. The food hall in the centre caters for just about every taste and wallet size. We invariably end up picking up Christmas presents and No 2 always gets his prescription glasses there. Judging by the number of swimmers (with parents in tow) we run into, we're not the only ones that "enjoy" the shopping there.
TandB

[londoner62]

Just wanted to mention CALLUM FRENCH (12) of St Ives SC who was victorious today in the 100 free in 58.77 which is about a 3 second PB. At least I now know it ain't only my ar$e he's kicking!

[Katie]

Crikey, Ellen Gandy's 61.2 100 fly is a pretty impressive start!!

[aswim]

ye wonder how that raks with the youths times l8tr?

[GettingFaster]

ye wonder how that raks with the youths times l8tr?
That's got me thinking (yeah, I know, doesn't happen often and all that ;) ) but what if these very young swimmers were to swim fast enough to match times in the commie qualifiers - would that mean they could be considered? Are there any rules for minimum age in commies like there is in Olympics? And do you knowledgeable folk out there think any of these exceptional swimmers would be able to get times to qualify?

[Linny]

That's got me thinking (yeah, I know, doesn't happen often and all that ;) ) but what if these very young swimmers were to swim fast enough to match times in the commie qualifiers - would that mean they could be considered?I think I'm right in saying that BAGCATS isn't one of the events that you can qualify at although there are some BAGCAT age swimmers competing next week at the trials.
Are there any rules for minimum age in commies like there is in Olympics? I didn't know that there was a minimum age to compete at the Olympics for swimming. Are you sure? What is it?

[littlemonkey]

Competitor's have to be 16, it was a rule brought in after Atlanta (I think), to prevent the exploitation of some (very) young gymnasts.

[Taxiandbank]

Ellen would have place 25th in Montreal. Just to add fuel to the arguement of taking young swimmers for experience.
TandB

[Bazza]

Well I'm not sure I agree with taking a 13 year old to place 25th, but that is for another thread. The minimum age is not 16 as Katie Hoff was only 15. I think it might be 13 for Olympics but not sure about Commonwealths.

[KJ89]

The end of another good day of racing in sheffield a lot of people seem the be a lot faster than their entry times. Excellent swim by Sophie Teasdale in the 100 Free with a time that would have placed her second in the age group above. Nearly a Beckenham 1-2-3 in the 13y 100 free (no wonder their relay team was so good!) has that ever been done at nationals? good to see vulcans topping the medal table with 4 gold and 2 silver and this year its an equal split of boys and girls not the girls domination

In the BAGCATs the top of the girls 11y is very close only 17 points separating the top 4

[ruthcp]

Anyone here know the website for photos from the NAGs?
I am just back from hols and can't remember it! :p

[Chris]

Anyone here know the website for photos from the NAGs?
I am just back from hols and can't remember it! :p

This one: http://www.swimmingphotos.net/ ???

Chris

[ruthcp]

This one: http://www.swimmingphotos.net/ ???

Chris

Thanks Chris, this is indeed the site! :king: