Team England Qualifying Times

[bean]

So, with these now published, how many 'ENGLISH' swimmers will get there, compared to Scottish and Welsh etc. etc..............?
Thought this was meant to be Commonwealth Games not World Championships!
However it will ensure the Youth finals and not the commie finals fill up at Nationals/Commie trials this summer!!!!!!!(except for the Welsh & Scottish who have, at least, a realistic chance)

[Linny]

Wow! Them's a bit tough.
http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-92421-0-file,00.pdf to save you looking. :)

[bean]

Wow! Them's a bit tough.
http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-92421-0-file,00.pdf to save you looking. :)

Thank you Linny, my point exactly!

[Linny]

The selection criteria are really interesting and seeing the times written down in that way really highlights the strengths and weaknesses for different strokes and distances in England and the other Commonwealth countries. By that I mean in some events one could perhaps foresee 3 qualifiers whereas in others there will surely be none.

[Taxiandbank]

Wow! Them's a bit tough.
http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-92421-0-file,00.pdf to save you looking. :)
Interestingly still labelled "draft" at bottom of page

[bean]

Interestingly still labelled "draft" at bottom of page

Perhaps it says 'draft' until they find out how many 'English' swimmers withdraw from the Trials by 15th July!

[swimaholic 2000]

Its a shame that after years of hard work, a number of English Swimmers will have to break or be close to British Records to have the opportunity of representing their country.

[NotVeryFast]

At the last olympics, there were swimmers reaching finals with times that wouldn't have qualified them to go to the olympics if they'd been British.

Then there is the argument that the money required to take "under-performing" swimmers to major championships could be better spent elsewhere, but what is there to inspire people for the future if they can see that even if they are the best in the country, they might never be able to experience the excitement of a major championship? And what about the impact on individuals who have worked so hard for so long, and are denied the experience of a lifetime, when they are much better swimmers than many who will be attending from other countries? What is the point of spending all that money on developing young talent, encouraging them to devote a big chunk of their lives to swimming, only to deny them their dreams when they reach the peak of their swimming careers?

Yes, we would prefer to win medals if possible, but we have to be realistic. Sporting performance is largely a statistical effect based on the size of the population you have to draw talent from, assuming that all the population have equal opportunity to develop their talents. The USA has roughly 5 times the population of Britain. This means that if both do an equally good job of identifying and developing talent, then on average, for each British swimmer who is the best at a particular event, there should be 5 US swimmers who are better, or at worst equal. If the entire world did an equally good job of identifying and developing swimming talent, then you'd expect the best British swimmer in each event to be ranked around 100th in the world. You'd get the occasional person who would be significantly better, but this is what would happen, on average.

[Linny]

I compared the English qualifying times to the GB qualifying times for the Olympic games (cos I'm boring) and in 15 events even the Commonwealth C time is faster than any time that had to be acheived to qualify for the Olympics.
I suppose that this is in part an inevitable consequence of using the best in the world times from an Olympic year, we are a year and a half or so further on and we shouldn't necessarily assume that it should be easier to qualify for the Commonwealth Games.
It is interesting though that 11 out of that 15 are in men's events including all the freestyle events and I suppose that this reflects the difference between the strength of male and female swimming in a couple of Commonwealth countries.
What do you think?

[mad4it]

It seems rather pointless to me. You want qualifying times to be tough but not unachievable. To be honest I thought some of the Scottish times were pretty tough, and I know a few of the swimmers swam huge best times to achieve them, which, should happen.

But when you look at these English times and then look at the GB rankings, is it really possible? Even people who you would expect to qualify for Commies easily are really going to struggle, Mel Marshall has to go 1.58.3, and I mean do we even have any British butterflyers who can go 26.8, 58.5 or 2.09.7?? The only people who have shown recent form and the ability to make these times are the girls in the 400 & 800 Free.
As for the Mens side, assuming all is well, there should be some breaststrokers get times and James Goddard in the backstroke, but that looks like it.

Hey you never know, Scotland might even have more qualifiers than England!!

[Graham Wardell]

....Yes, we would prefer to win medals if possible, but we have to be realistic. Sporting performance is largely a statistical effect based on the size of the population you have to draw talent from, assuming that all the population have equal opportunity to develop their talents. The USA has roughly 5 times the population of Britain. This means that if both do an equally good job of identifying and developing talent, then on average, for each British swimmer who is the best at a particular event, there should be 5 US swimmers who are better, or at worst equal. If the entire world did an equally good job of identifying and developing swimming talent, then you'd expect the best British swimmer in each event to be ranked around 100th in the world. You'd get the occasional person who would be significantly better, but this is what would happen, on average.

But nations with smaller populations than Great Britain do a better job at winning medals. Look at Hungary for example. Why is this? Then look at the Hungarian results from European Juniors and see that they have an excellent junior programme, in advance of ours. What are we not doing right, or what do we need to do better? These are the questions we need to ask, not why the QTs are tough. It's a tough sport

[Phil Tanner]

You could also argue that Australia's population is only a third of ours!

I suppose as far as Hungary is concerned, it might have something to do with sport having been heavily supported by the State during the Soviet era on the one hand, and on the other individuals having been able to use it as their only opportunity for travel for maybe 40 years. And they have managed to hang onto that culture post-1989. Whereas you could look next door at Austria and I don't remember ever having seen an Austrian swimmer in a major championship, not that I follow them religiously.

And I think I'm right in saying that water polo is pretty well the national sport, right up there with football. There must be a lot of kids who play water polo but realise they're not going to make the absolute top grade but get years of top-flight swimming training under their belts in the process.

[aswim]

many of the scottish,welsh ect qualifiers would have not made it if these were the times 4 them! Tho give the smaller nations better chance of getting in. ANYONE KNOW WHAT THE AUSTRALIAN QUALIFYING TIMES ARE?? WOULD BE INTERESTING. THANKS

[Bazza]

Graham makes a good point, but for me another important question is something which notveryfast talks about, which is 'does denying our best swimmers, who have spent in some cases at least 10 years or more dedicating their lives to the sport and making many sacrifices in the process, the opportunity to compete at major international championships, really help improve our chances of winning medals in the longer term?'

And if so, is it worth sacrificing 4 years of internationals championships to win maybe 1 more Olympic medal?

[lane4]

Look at Hungary for example. Why is this?

One of the Hungarians told me that in Hungary you either swim competitively 100% or you are a recreation swimmer on your own. i.e. if you are in a swimming club, you do all the training available, all of the time, there is none of this 4, 5, 6 times a week business like many do in the UK. If you don't want to commit 100% then in Hungary, any swimming you do will be in your own time by yourself. Perhaps this explains some of why they continually produce such good swimmers. I know from one of the swimmers in my club that the Chinese have a similar philosophy too, not just in swimming but in life in general. If you are going to do something you do it properly and work as hard as you can at it.

A bit off topic now but I was also informed that Hungary and China are the only two countries who announce people's names by saying the surname first as opposed to second like we do here.

[NotVeryFast]

But nations with smaller populations than Great Britain do a better job at winning medals. Look at Hungary for example. Why is this? Then look at the Hungarian results from European Juniors and see that they have an excellent junior programme, in advance of ours. What are we not doing right, or what do we need to do better? These are the questions we need to ask, not why the QTs are tough. It's a tough sport
I did add the caveat of population size only being the primary determinant when the countries being compared do an equally good job of identifying and developing talent. There could be many reasons why countries differ in how well they do this, not all of which might be easily addressable. For example, swimming gets very little quality tv time in the UK, e.g. the world champs are on non-free-to-air Eurosport. Compare that to the glamour of football in the UK. Many top athletes are good at a lot of sports, so swimming has to compete with other sports for the nation's best talent. How good is Hungary's football team compared to England's? (Answer: ranked 66th compared to 8th)

[Linny]

But nations with smaller populations than Great Britain do a better job at winning medals. Look at Hungary for example. Why is this? Then look at the Hungarian results from European Juniors and see that they have an excellent junior programme, in advance of ours. What are we not doing right, or what do we need to do better? These are the questions we need to ask, not why the QTs are tough. It's a tough sportYou are very positive and sensible - looking for a solution and trying to learn from others is the right way of course. However, why do you feel that the setting of qualifying times for the selection of national teams (generally) falls outwith what is to be considered when asking "What are we not doing right, or what do we need to do better?"

It is not difficult to determine that 7 of the Hungarian Juniors were a part of their Olympic team in Athens - only two would have qualified for the British team because of the consideration times. They didn't all swim but four of them certainly did and who knows if the experience benefitted them earlier this month in Budapest nor will anyone ever know if it will benefit them in any future competitions. We can only wonder and wait.

Also why is their junior programme so excellent and what makes it in advance of ours? I have read about how many of the Hungarian juniors were swimming under the same coach as Daniel Gyurta but I had been under the impression that this was a part of a particularly successful club programme rather than the National Junior Squad although I understand that he is their Head Coach. Am I confused here? :confused:
Not trying to be cheeky just asking. :angel:

[dogstroke]

What are we not doing right, or what do we need to do better? These are the questions we need to ask, not why the QTs are tough. It's a tough sport

But did they actually bother checking if anyone in the shires could do
the times before they put the pin in the tables? Yes, swimming is already one of the toughest sports going but NotVeryFast got it spot on - denying a swimmer's (possibly) only chance of representing their country, just because they might not make a final when they get there, doesn't make them go faster - it just makes them wonder what all the years of early mornings, late nights and personal sacrifice were all about.

The LTAD say it takes ten years to build an athlete. Now they're saying that after ten years you can toddle off and watch it on t.v. with nothing to tell your mates/mother/kids, long after you've flogged your flippers on Ebay. the CG should simply be between the best swimmers from every country.

If you want to make your athletes more competitive you identify those with the desire to succeed and ensure that they get the best coaching, best diet and best physio, not by raising the bar so high that they'll be more officials than swimmers on the bus to Melbourne.

unfair? agreed we've got some excellent technical coaches in this country but ask yourself if your clubs nutritional advice is any more detailed than 'eat healthy' or 'lose weight' and whether the landwork programme is run by a trained physio who can identify the needs of different athletes (and prevent needless injuries) or the poor sod who got roped into it because everyone else had the sense to duck.

[crawler]

I just had a look at the position on relays for England following the Trials.

Unless my maths is at fault (or I've mucked up on nationalities) the very good news is that should be male and female English teams selected for each relay as follows:

4x100 Free= Mel Marshall, Francesca Halshall, Lisa Chapman, Ros Brett
4x200 Free=Mel Marshall,Jo Jackson,Kate Richardson, Julia Beckett
4x100 Med=Katy Sexton, Kate Haywood, Terri Dunning,Mel Marshall

4x100 Free=Simon Burnett,Chris Cozens,Anthony Howard,Ross Davenport
4x200 Free=Simon Burnett, Ross Davenport,Dean Milwain,Alex Scotcher
4x100 Med=Liam Tancock,Chris Cook,Michael Rock,Simon Burnett

Men more comfortably within the time limits than the women! I guess that faster swims at the stage 3 meet could lead to other swimmers replacing the above ones, but it's good that we will have relay teams competing.

[Taxiandbank]

Which makes 19 out of the 36 places available! and no individual events!

[Steve]

Which makes 19 out of the 36 places available! and no individual events!
I think you'll find that, of those listed in crawler's relay teams, Burnett, Cook, Tancock and Jo Jackson all have individual swims (plus of course Becky Cooke being the only other confirmed team member) :D