Plug is pulled on pool!

[Arianna]

THE Government has ordered the Olympic aquatic centre back to the drawing board because the cost of the lavish design, by award-winning architect Zaha Hadid, is almost double the budgeted £75 million

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4662-1898688,00.html

[Phil Tanner]

Can't help thinking this is bad news for the sport as a whole, if it creates the impression that pools coming in at twice the original budget is the norm! Wasn't the architect involved in a debacle over the Cardiff Bay opera house as well?

[Swimhelper]

The Architect had won awards for her innovative desings, but I don't think she actually knew anything about designing a swimming pool. Not sure what the backstrokers would have made of the 'undulating roof like a mantra ray floating over the sea bed'!:rolleyes:

[Steve]

My (nominally professional) opinion, based only on what I've read in the industry press and the other media outlets and what I've seen of the building (which which it probably should be possible to build the superstructure for £75m), is that much of the additional cost will be involved with ground conditions and other unforseen additional site works that probably weren't included or were underestimated when they did the original budget. Unfortunately if this is the case, and it happens a lot, it will mean that the building itself will need to be simplified to get it under budget, since you can't really skimp on foundations; clients never want to pay for them though because you don't see what you get for your money in the finished building.

[Leprechaun]

THE Government has ordered the Olympic aquatic centre back to the drawing board because the cost of the lavish design, by award-winning architect Zaha Hadid, is almost double the budgeted £75 million

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,4662-1898688,00.html

How on earth can a professional (s) even dare to put something forward that is so far off beam. And remember that the cost over runs on other major projects start some time into the project...

Put another 5 quid on Masters' Entry Forms - that'll fix it.

[Linny]

How on earth can a professional (s) even dare to put something forward that is so far off beam. Scottish Parliament building anyone? 3 years late and 10 times over budget?

[Gina]

Maybe a plain, old POOL designer should have been hired, not some fancy designer who knows little about designing a pool. I think I remember seeing the plans and they looked a bit strange. Did it look like a glass cube or am I thinking about something else?

[OAC]

I think the glass cube thing is the Beijing pool, the London one is all curvy like a wave.

[Pete]

It needs to be really straightforward like the pool in Sydney.

[Ljunberg]

Maybe not a bad thing, I personally didn't like the look of it anyway. Didn't it have a brown ceiling? Stick along the lines of Sheffield, Manchester and tollcross. Can't go wrong with simplicity.

[Leprechaun]

Maybe not a bad thing.Can't go wrong with simplicity.
mr sparkes' comments on radio five tonigit were appalling. no real concern bit me setback these things happen sort of tone. he came across badly i thought.

[Steve]

Maybe a plain, old POOL designer should have been hired, not some fancy designer who knows little about designing a pool.

What makes you think that she doesn't know anything about pools? And why would it matter if she didn't? All pools are designed by architects but they'll only do the superstructure, not the tank and plant rooms etc on which specialists will provide the necessary spatial advice. Apart from those elements it's a building like any other.

I think I remember seeing the plans and they looked a bit strange. Did it look like a glass cube or am I thinking about something else?

You're thinking of the watercube which is the national aquatic centre in Beijing for the 2008 games:

http://www.ptw.com.au/admin/library/Watercube02.jpg
http://www.arcspace.com/architects/ptw/5.flyclose.jpg

The 2012 design is much more conventional:

<p><a href="http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Exterior.html" onclick="window.open('http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Exterior.html','popup','width=600,height=425,scrol lbars=no,resizable=no,toolbar=no,directories=no,lo cation=no,menubar=no,status=no,left=0,top=0'); return false"><img src="http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Exterior-thumb.jpg" width="176" height="125" border="0" /></a>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Interior.html" onclick="window.open('http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Interior.html','popup','width=600,height=450,scrol lbars=no,resizable=no,toolbar=no,directories=no,lo cation=no,menubar=no,status=no,left=0,top=0'); return false"><img src="http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/news/images/Aquatic Centre - Interior-thumb.jpg" width="166" height="125" border="0" /></a></p>

How on earth can a professional (s) even dare to put something forward that is so far off beam. And remember that the cost over runs on other major projects start some time into the project...

Notwithstanding my earlier comments, the key point is this part of what Tessa Jowell said:

I have had to send the designers of the Olympic aquatic centre back to the drawing board because a change in the specification had almost doubled the costs

To me that says someone outside the design team has asked for something to be changed, resutling in the cost increases, which would make it a client problem and not an architectural one.

It needs to be really straightforward like the pool in Sydney.

Except that in engineering terms it's not straightforward; the big arch and the grid shell roof are probably only marginally easier to build than the roof shown in the concepts for the 2012 pool.

[Crazy Legs]

Don't think you can put the blame squarely at the door of the Architect.
No doubt Team Hadid likes to express the architecture in weird and wonderful ways and use slick materials but there are many other players in the design team.
It is likely that there would have been a lot of loose but ambitious requirements in the initial Performance Specification which can't be compared with Tollcross or even Manchester and this is before we get on to spacial requirements.

There would have been a huge emphasis on the building to be environmentally sustainable as a legacy to the eventual end user, making use of renewable energy systems, recycle "grey water" that sort of thing.
I get the feeling that the Services Engineer and others will be airing on the high side to allow for a comfortable margin of error before getting down to the detail. It happens (Scottish Parliament aside!)

It is likely that there would also be a requirement for it to be a cut above anything else in its approach to people with disabilities (new British Standards and so on).
Disability Access Consultants would have been drafted in and many others in the design team pushing for features and standards that have not been taken seriously in the past. For example: for those familiar with it- how does a wheelchair user get up to the spectators' gallery in Tollcross?

Not saying that the latest cost can be justified but if you want to strive for quality you have to pay a bit more at the outset.

[chris_lamb]

Overall there are quite complicated requirements. It has to be suitable for the Olympics yet also sustainable afterwards. It has to be visually impressive yet still functional and ecomonic to run. They have to keep within budget and still provide all the necessary facilities. I believe the decision on where the training pools will be located has also changed since the original design spec was issued.

When faced with changing requirements it is inevitable that changes will need to be made. Sometimes it isn't possible to make changes so going back to the drawing board is easier. A decision like this now is not a problem - finding out half way through building that you have to make a change that will double the cost is!

[Leprechaun]

mr sparkes' comments on radio five tonigit were appalling. no real concern bit me setback these things happen sort of tone. he came across badly i thought.

Sorry for the gobbledegook, I was typing this on a smart phone while waiting for polo match vs Basingstoke last night. What I meant to say was:

"No real concern, bit of a setback, these things happen" was the tone of the interview. I was appalled not just in the way that the design has been allowed to escalate in cost terms (ie it suddenly just didnt become 100% overbudget on estimated costs) but the implication that budgets are just milestones you pass. If it was HIS money then fine, its not and never is, fellow taxpayers.

As for the polo we lost (a 2nd team friendly, good spirit from both teams), I have damaged ligaments in middle finger of right hand and the journey up and down the rain-soaked M3 wasnt much fun either!

[chris_lamb]

If it was HIS money then fine, its not and never is, fellow taxpayers.

It also isn't really anything to do with him! It is an Olympic project managed by the ODA, not British Swimming. Even if it was a British Swimming project, it wouldn't be Bill Sweetenham managing it! It is one of those things and is only a minor set back at this point. The pool is due for delivery well ahead of the games so a short delay is not a problem.

As for the polo we lost

Woo. Go Bluefins :D

[Martin-Y]

I see in the trade press that one proposal would be to half the capacity from 20,000 to 10,000 to reduce cost. Bearing in mind that Sydney was 17,500 and Athens was 11,000 is this proposal the answer to the problem. I'm still amazed that they estimated the cost so badly.

[Bazza]

Well David Sparkes said it was unacceptable to reduce the capacity from 20,000 to 10,000, and I hope they don't - bearing in mind how expensive it was to get tickets to the Commonwealth Games in Manchester an extra 10,000 seats should make it easier and more reasonable to be able to go and watch.

[Martin-Y]

I dread to think what the cost might be for those wanting to see some swimming, but your right it might be less obscene with the original number of seats.

[Steve]

I dread to think what the cost might be for those wanting to see some swimming, but your right it might be less obscene with the original number of seats.
Knowing how expensive the Sydney tickets were and how expensive the tickets are for the Commie games (with around half the number of seats) then you can rest assured that the tickets will be just as expensive however many there are, just that you'll have more chance of getting one!

[lane4]

Knowing how expensive the Sydney tickets were and how expensive the tickets are for the Commie games (with around half the number of seats) then you can rest assured that the tickets will be just as expensive however many there are, just that you'll have more chance of getting one!

Correct, I went to the swimming at both Sydney and Athens and forgetting about loose change, the ticket prices were the same at both. A seat at every session in Athens cost a tad over 2000 Euros IIRC.

[Martin-Y]

Is there a local swimming club that would benefit from this pool for regular training sessions post 2012 , is it expected to become the home of any existing clubs or is it likely that an elite club would be set up to use it for training.

[Taxiandbank]

Is there a local swimming club that would benefit from this pool for regular training sessions post 2012 , is it expected to become the home of any existing clubs or is it likely that an elite club would be set up to use it for training.
Headquarters for british swimming I read somewhere.

[chris_lamb]

Is there a local swimming club that would benefit from this pool for regular training sessions post 2012 , is it expected to become the home of any existing clubs or is it likely that an elite club would be set up to use it for training.

I would expect a large number of clubs to use it regularly - not just swimming, but water polo, synchro, diving, maybe even open water but less useful :D

[Taxiandbank]

I would expect a large number of clubs to use it regularly - not just swimming, but water polo, synchro, diving, maybe even open water but less useful :D
Or more likely put in a wave machine and a couple of flumes to make it less elitest.

[Wildswimmer]

I haven't read all of this thread so I hope I'm not off beam, but the good people of Bath are still waiting for their chance to bathe in their own hot spring for the same reason. Their all-singing, all-dancing new aquatic centre remains half built at twice the cost. Seems the Romans could easily manage something that a bevy of overpaid suits can't.

Don't know why they don't just reopen the Roman baths. They were only closed on spurious "Health and Safety" grounds. Now where have I heard that before?

Wildswimmer Pete (espying his Speedo-clad rump)

[Swim Kids]

:confused: for goodness sake! why oh why do the brits have to spend sooooo much? if the govenrment had spend £75 million on swimming pools in the uk already we may have already had a decent aquatics centre to hold the olympics without commissioning a new build!

[chris_lamb]

:confused: for goodness sake! why oh why do the brits have to spend sooooo much? if the govenrment had spend £75 million on swimming pools in the uk already we may have already had a decent aquatics centre to hold the olympics without commissioning a new build!

A new facility would almost certainly still have been needed. Unless there just happened to be a pool with 20,000 specatator seats, plus a couple of training pools and pools for diving and synchro very close to the rest of the olympic facilities...

[Linny]

I was listening to some guy from the Lottery Commission (or whatever it is called now) talking about the 2012 Olympics today and am starting to wonder where the money for the major construction is actually supposed to be coming from. There is a report of sorts about it here (http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2180793.ece).

Seems to me that everyone wants the best AND for it to be green and beautiful and yet -

Londoners don't want to pay for it
Tax Payers don't want to pay for it
Lottery doesn't want to pay for it
Noone wants to use PFI

Any other ideas?