Darren Mew

[Sush]

Anyone else noticed the fly kick Mews been slipping in after the dive??? He dives in adds a fly kick as he enters; though definate kick, not reaction to entering or anything, then does another with the armstroke, as you would expect.

Been watching over and over on the tape to make sure i'm not going mad; first noticed it in the heats, and again in the semis where I checked with tape, and today in the final he actually did 2 from the dive + the one with the arms!

Shown some other people too who agree hes doing it, but havent heard the commentators say anything on it, and not been DQ'd.

Surely it's illegal!?!?!!!!!!!

Please say someone else has seen it and its nt me going mad!

[NotVeryFast]

Lots of swimmers do that, it will continue until they use underwater footage to spot it and disqualify them, the judges can't see them doing it from above the water through all the bubbles after the entry.

[lane4]

Lots of swimmers do that, it will continue until they use underwater footage to spot it and disqualify them.
Correct. You may have seen Zoe Baker doing it too the other day, although I think she did about 5 kicks on entry, not 2.

[Sush]

Yeah, have started to notice a couple of others too now.

Ahh, that would explain it! Just would have expected the commentators to comment or something.

Thanks!

[Spidey]

Anyone else noticed the fly kick Mews been slipping in after the dive??? He dives in adds a fly kick as he enters;

Surely it's illegal!?!?!!!!!!!

Please say someone else has seen it and its nt me going mad!

I thought the law had changed, so you were allowed to do the fly kick? One at least on each dive / turn.

[Chris]

I thought the law had changed, so you were allowed to do the fly kick? One at least on each dive / turn.

He's been observed doing an extra kick or two ....

[Linny]

On the video, I thought it was Chris Cook rather than Darren Mew that was caught giving it big wellie off the start but I've deleted it now cos a nice man is recording and indexing it all for me to save me searching through hours of swimming for one event when I am old and grey (read older and greyer there).

[Katie]

ah there we go. I thought the same during the 50 final today, but it could possibly have been Chris Cook. But either way, he won :)

[Linny]

ah there we go. I thought the same during the 50 final today, but it could possibly have been Chris Cook. But either way, he won :)It did look like Darren Mew today, the sooner the cameras are USED the better in my opinion. Turn/finish judges have no chance of seeing what goes on under the water at the start and the stoke judges struggle to see further in than lane 2 and 7 at the start. It isn't right that those in the inside lanes can do what they please, take the benefit, and get away with it.

[Pink Paraffin]

I've already said this on another post but this is cheating, nothing more, nothing less. And this cheating cost Gibson a medal

[Linny]

I've already said this on another post but this is cheating, nothing more, nothing less. And this cheating cost Gibson a medalAt last some common ground for us PP! I shall do a jig around my Scottish castle to celebrate.

[400IMer]

HI All

I think part of the problem is the availability of the technology at all meets run under FINA laws - ie developing nations. Also, what would happen when the technology fails as electricity dipped in water is wanten to do?! I agree that it would be a good idea to use it so that we get the best swimmers winning rather than the ones who "bend" the rules and human error. I just think FINA would trot out the above excuse.

By the way has anyone noticed the change in Leisel Jones' stroke. She's taken her time down by nearly 1 1/2 secs on the 100m. - Its subtle but very effective.

[chris_lamb]

The problem is in the implementation:

Do they currently have cameras covering all 10 lanes to the same extent? If not, it wouldn't be fair to check just some. Who is going to pay?
How is it going to be checked? Will all footage be checked everytime or only if there is a suspicion that rules may be broken?
How long are we prepared to wait to announce results. If we are willing to wait 24 hours then all footage can be checked in great detail. If not then some compromises will have to be made.
What if the camera in one lane fails? Will all footage for the heat/event be disregarded or will that lane be allowed to potentially gain an advantage?
What meets will it be required at?They are not insurmountable obstacles, but they do need to be worked around.

As sport gets more and more professional it is only a matter of time before video footage is used. It just needs to be thought about in advance so that it is used fairly and efficiently.

[Pink Paraffin]

I would disagree with this being a 'bending' of the rules. Mew (and others) are blatantly breaking them and it would seem that they are being coached to do so

I can't go with the notion of 'do it until you get caught' as this is a similar philosophy to the majority of drug cheats - an even greater crime. I am not, however, suggesting that anyone mentioned in this thread is a drug user - just that both are forms of cheating

It would be interesting to see if Mew (and others) use the same technique when in Lane 1 or 8

[Martin-Y]

Another option, ban the cheating coaches, of all swimmers caught doing this, from poolside. The officials are probably guided by the referee at these international meets to let it go anyway.
Any coach that teaches a swimmer to cheat is exposing his or her inability to coach the swimmer to win within the rules.

[chris_lamb]

The officials are probably guided by the referee at these international meets to let it go anyway

Do you have any evidence at all to back up this accusation?

[Martin-Y]

Apart from Miss Jones we haven't seen a flood of new world records in the Breaststroke following the introduction of the fly kick at the backend of the pooldown. Thoughts!!

[chris_lamb]

Apart from Miss Jones we haven't seen a flood of new world records in the Breaststroke following the introduction of the fly kick at the backend of the pooldown. Thoughts!!

The rule change was to permit what was already happening!

[Martin-Y]

Do you have any evidence at all to back up this accusation?
Don't be overly sensitive Chris but how else do you explain the lack of DQ's. I don't buy the fact the officials can't see it. How many times have you disqualified a swimmer for doing two kicks/ two arm pulls at the start of a local meet. I know I have and you're a good referee so you must have as well.

[Martin-Y]

The rule change was to permit what was already happening!
Not sure I agree with that otherwise they would have legalised the kicks we are discussing

[patlamb]

Counted 5 fly kicks on entry from the 50mtr Gold medallist.. he was humble enough to interject during interview that he had really been working on his starts.

[lane4]

When you get to a certain level in breaststroke you discover that the vast majority of your competitors are dolphin kicking on entry at the start. You are shocked and somewhat disgusted at first. But then you figure that well, if they are all doing it and getting away with it, there is no point me losing out, especially when that national time / international time / final / medal I'm after is just a few 100ths away. Most swimmers (in fact almost all high level sportsmen and women) will take the success first and worry about the moral high ground later. I've found it is largely a swimmer led decision to instigate the fly kicks and not an instruction from coaches.

I once saw a (former) world record holder for 50 breast perform about 6 fly kicks on entry and then a further 5-6 kicks during and after the arm pull out. I once saw a world champion for 50 breast do several freestyle (!!) kicks before the arm pull out during a turn at Sheffield.

[ringer]

The problem highlighted by Lane4 is where the line is drawn as far as rule breaking is concerned.
Where swimmers to gain advantage deliberately break the technical rules and suffer DQ where the officials are eagle-eyed and brave enough to spot it they deserve that DQ.
Moral dilemma?? Don't think so. The repeated fly kickers at breaststroke are to swimming what the divers are to football and their victories are hollowed as a result.

[GettingFaster]

The officials are probably guided by the referee at these international meets to let it go anyway.
I don't buy that one either, Martin, it's not just chris_lamb who would disagree with you. After all, the officials are also in the public eye here, I can't see that they would obey an instruction to 'not see' something that they could clearly see from poolside. And I certainly can't see that any lead ref would dare to suggest that they should. He/she would be hung, drawn and quartered for doing so!

Even at little age-group meets the officials work to the highest standards, and if they clearly see something 'odd' then they report it. But it must be very difficult to see clearly what's going on from poolside when swimmers are moving so fast as the movement through the water can look a bit 'wavy' even if a swimmer is swimming in perfectly streamlined straightness. That's why I would not get myself qualified, I'd hate the sort of pressure the officials are under. (I'll stick to doing the talky bits.)

[Linny]

Do they currently have cameras covering all 10 lanes to the same extent? If not, it wouldn't be fair to check just some.Why not? It isn't fair now when officials can't see all the lanes to the same extent. It isn't fair that not everyone is drug tested but just because not everyone can be tested doesn't mean we shouldn't bother with any. If we can't afford or don't want all lanes covered, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have cameras and dummy cameras in the water just like with speed cameras. Nearly everyone speeds if they think they can get away with it but I don't know anyone who would deliberately speed past a camera even though we all know that a lot of them are not filming. Same for swimmers who might otherwise be tempted to cheat.How is it going to be checked? Will all footage be checked everytime or only if there is a suspicion that rules may be broken? Everything available through official sources should be checked in my view but iof it was decided to use any recordings as a third umpire that would do, just let's get on with it.How long are we prepared to wait to announce results. If we are willing to wait 24 hours then all footage can be checked in great detail. If not then some compromises will have to be made.How is this different from drugs testing? There is no reason why results couldn't be posted straight after the referee has okayed it. I can't see that it would take longer than minutes for the footage to be checked and the result verified. Then appeals during the same time frames that there are now. I would rather wait 24 hours for a final result than have a gold medal and/or a world record go to someone who everyone KNEW had broken the rules and got away with it. To allow that to happen just doesn't make sense.As sport gets more and more professional it is only a matter of time before video footage is used. It just needs to be thought about in advance so that it is used fairly and efficiently.I agree with this totally and it is time to get on with it.

[Bogbloke]

what does the official rule say regarding the fly leg kick for breast?

[ruthcp]

I don't buy that one either, Martin, it's not just chris_lamb who would disagree with you. After all, the officials are also in the public eye here, I can't see that they would obey an instruction to 'not see' something that they could clearly see from poolside. And I certainly can't see that any lead ref would dare to suggest that they should. He/she would be hung, drawn and quartered for doing so!

Even at little age-group meets the officials work to the highest standards, and if they clearly see something 'odd' then they report it. But it must be very difficult to see clearly what's going on from poolside when swimmers are moving so fast as the movement through the water can look a bit 'wavy' even if a swimmer is swimming in perfectly streamlined straightness. That's why I would not get myself qualified, I'd hate the sort of pressure the officials are under. (I'll stick to doing the talky bits.)

Got to disagree with you and Chris Lamb GF, and agree with Martin.
I'm afraid the officials are swayed by the general feeling that this sort of thing should appear to be absent at this level, and anyway often such dqs can be overturned (Aaron Piersol was it at the Olympics or Worlds).
At 'little league' levels, no such thing applies and officials (and swimmers) as a whole do the right thing.

[NotVeryFast]

Got to disagree with you and Chris Lamb GF, and agree with Martin.
I'm afraid the officials are swayed by the general feeling that this sort of thing should appear to be absent at this level, and anyway often such dqs can be overturned (Aaron Piersol was it at the Olympics or Worlds).
At 'little league' levels, no such thing applies and officials (and swimmers) as a whole do the right thing.
But then the officials at Melbourne were brave enough to DQ Kerry Buchan and Jim Piper for fly kick during the normal stroke, so why would they enforce this but not the fly kicks on entry if they were able to see the fly kicks on entry?

[GettingFaster]

Got to disagree with you and Chris Lamb GF, and agree with Martin.
I'm afraid the officials are swayed by the general feeling that this sort of thing should appear to be absent at this level, and anyway often such dqs can be overturned (Aaron Piersol was it at the Olympics or Worlds).
At 'little league' levels, no such thing applies and officials (and swimmers) as a whole do the right thing.
I find this very disappointing, and I seriously hope it's not the case.

Yes, of course we all feel that this sort of thing should be absent at this level but when you take into account the reason the rule on a single downward fly kick in breaststroke was amended was because it wasn't absent, your argument kinda falls over. And yes, DQs can be turned over (at the discretion of the ref isn't it?) but just because a DQ can be turned over if it's wrong doesn't mean it shouldn't be imposed if it's right.

Perhaps I have too much faith in the moral standards of our sport's officials but I seriously can't believe there would be a deliberate approach from every one of them to ignore cheating - that'd be the same as saying the officials were cheating!

[ruthcp]

If the swimmers do why can't the officials?

I don't think the argument falls over at all - if the rule was amended just because it wasn't absent, then where is it likely to stop? Are they going to amend it again so that 5 or 6 fly kicks are ok 'just because they are not absent'?
Instead of amending a rule because it's being blatantly ignored, why not enforce it instead?

[Linny]

But then the officials at Melbourne were brave enough to DQ Kerry Buchan and Jim Piper for fly kick during the normal stroke, so why would they enforce this but not the fly kicks on entry if they were able to see the fly kicks on entry?They were both in outside lanes, maybe if they had been in the centre the judge wouldn't have made the same call although I thought Piper's downbeats each cycle were really obvious even from the overhead shots and they got worse towards the end of the race.

As an official if you see something at a start or at a turn you don't get a replay it is a judgement call and you have to be absolutley certain. If you can't see because of splash you are never going to be absolutley certain.

As an official if you see something happening repeatedly during a stroke cycle you get loads of replays, it is still a judgement call but you have plenty of opportunity to call it.

[Martin-Y]

Perhaps I have too much faith in the moral standards of our sport's officials but I seriously can't believe there would be a deliberate approach from every one of them to ignore cheating - that'd be the same as saying the officials were cheating!
Your faith is well founded and I didn't mean to phrase it such that I was questioning the integrity of the officials. They are probably directed to be sure beyond reasonable doubt and that makes it difficult for the judge to stick his head above the parapet. Also consistency comes into play and if you can't clearly see lane 4/5 is it fair to DQ lane 3 especially if you think that they are all doing it. The officials job at the starts and turns is almost impossible with the human eye, therefore maybe we should use cameras. Linny made a good point, how many times have us judges standing on poolside seen something "out of the corner of the eye" at the turns and had to let it go in fairness to the swimmer.

[chris_lamb]

Don't be overly sensitive Chris but how else do you explain the lack of DQ's. I don't buy the fact the officials can't see it. How many times have you disqualified a swimmer for doing two kicks/ two arm pulls at the start of a local meet. I know I have and you're a good referee so you must have as well.

I've disqualified swimmers on several occasions...

However, on many more occasions I have stood on the end of the pool and known that the swimmer could have done anything they liked because I could not see anything underwater.

I am not suggesting that officials are perfect, or that they never make mistakes. I have been to national events and seen some awful displays from some officials. Sometimes out of incompetance, and sometimes out of laziness, and sometimes out of tradition, but never as a deliberate decision not to enforce certain rules.

[Linny]

I've disqualified swimmers on several occasions...

However, on many more occasions I have stood on the end of the pool and known that the swimmer could have done anything they liked because I could not see anything underwater.

I am not suggesting that officials are perfect, or that they never make mistakes. I have been to national events and seen some awful displays from some officials. Sometimes out of incompetance, and sometimes out of laziness, and sometimes out of tradition, but never as a deliberate decision not to enforce certain rules.Chris I agree with all of the above but I am struggling with the "tradition" bit. What does it mean?