Q.T's

[DAK]

Just heard about the mayhem at Sheffield following the womens 100 FC whereby there will be no semi finals as only 9 people have made the senior QT during the heats. This was in the rules:

'Heats will be swum to determine the allocation of lanes for the semi-finals (where applicable) and/or the final. A competitor must achieve the Senior entry qualifying time in the heats in order to progress into the semi-final and must also achieve the Senior qualifying time in the semi-final in order to progress into the final.'

However, there are now 4 swimmers who would have made the semi final who are qualifiers under the 'born in 90 or 91' time who will not get a second swim. This sounds like a completely pointless rule, surely we should be encouraging our young swimmers to get used to swimming heats/semi finals & finals?

I sympathise with the swimmers affected as they would be going for European Junior relay spots. The rule seems crazy to me, if they have made the 90-91 time then they should move into the semi finals.

[Linny]

I don't agree with you DAK. The QTs for the EJCs are well faster than the senior entry QTs so any swimmer with a realistic chance of qualifying should be able to get through to the next round.

Chaos (even more) would abound if there were different QTs for progression as well as for entry.

[DAK]

The QTs for the EJCs are well faster than the senior entry QTs so any swimmer with a realistic chance of qualifying should be able to get through to the next round.

Agreed the qualifying standards for the individual events at EJC are faster than senior entry to nationals but the 4 individuals who miss out on a semi final swim have a very realistic chance to make a relay spot dependent on their swim so could push for that in a semi final.


Chaos (even more) would abound if there were different QTs for progression as well as for entry.

I agree it would make it complicated but the fact that there are different QTs for 90-91 born makes it easy to distingiush people.

The question still remains, should we not be pushing for younger swimmers to get experience of swimming Heats/Semis & Finals?

[Vicki]

So with that ruling if only 2 people in the Heats made the time there would only be 2 people in the finals?!!! does seem a bit crazy and i cant really see the point in it to be honest.

[chris_lamb]

does seem a bit crazy and i cant really see the point in it to be honest.

I assume the point is to stop people taking it easy in the heats and just doing enough to make it through. At high level competitions you need to be able to repeat the performance 2 or 3 times so why not get used to it now?

[DAK]

I assume the point is to stop people taking it easy in the heats and just doing enough to make it through. At high level competitions you need to be able to repeat the performance 2 or 3 times so why not get used to it now?

This is the point, however, 4 of the potential semi finalists made their qualifying time (90-91 Born) in the heats. So what is the point of having this QT if it means only a heat swim?

[lane4]

The rule was changed this year to specifically clarify that only those achieving the senior QT would progress to the next round. Last year the rule wasn't as clear and juniors were allowed to progress if they got 'their age' QT. This caused chaos and complaints to reign as you had some juniors getting a second swim despite being slower than some seniors who were not being allowed through. And that is crazy! So its very clear this year to avoid the complaints of last year.

It is going to be okay in most events I think and it is true that if the junior cannot make the senior QT then they aren't really good enough to be going to the European Juniors anyway.

It would be a problem if the policy caused us to have a worse EJC team than if the policy did not exist. Which MIGHT occur for the freestyle relays where the team needed some swimmers to get a second 'faster' swim in the semis to make the overall team time good enough to qualify. However, for the girls 4 x 100, the times of the girls this morning and that of Fran Halsall in Melbourne are fast enough to already qualify the team so its not an issue.

It was a shambles that only 9 swimmers made the entry time this morning in the 100 free but I think you can put that down to a combination of the entry time for that event being a bit too fast, a number of bad swims this morning that should have been inside the required time, and Britain just being bad in general at producing girls who can swim a half decent 100 freestyle.

[DAK]

The rule was changed this year to specifically clarify that only those achieving the senior QT would progress to the next round. Last year the rule wasn't as clear and juniors were allowed to progress if they got 'their age' QT. This caused chaos and complaints to reign as you had some juniors getting a second swim despite being slower than some seniors who were not being allowed through. And that is crazy! So its very clear this year to avoid the complaints of last year.

It is going to be okay in most events I think and it is true that if the junior cannot make the senior QT then they aren't really good enough to be going to the European Juniors anyway.

It would be a problem if the policy caused us to have a worse EJC team than if the policy did not exist. Which MIGHT occur for the freestyle relays where the team needed some swimmers to get a second 'faster' swim in the semis to make the overall team time good enough to qualify. However, for the girls 4 x 100, the times of the girls this morning and that of Fran Halsall in Melbourne are fast enough to already qualify the team so its not an issue.

It was a shambles that only 9 swimmers made the entry time this morning in the 100 free but I think you can put that down to a combination of the entry time for that event being a bit too fast, a number of bad swims this morning that should have been inside the required time, and Britain just being bad in general at producing girls who can swim a half decent 100 freestyle.

Thanks for the clarification Mr4. I think the Girls this morning made the relay time even without Fran Halsall's time. Will she be going to EJC or only the senior event?

Not sure there is an easy way to please everyone in this scenario.

[Martin-Y]

and Britain just being bad in general at producing girls who can swim a half decent 100 freestyle.
So why is that do you think. At the risk of starting a quantity over quality, or reverse, debate are we paying less attention to training for shorter events

[Linny]

The same is true generally of the guys. If you wanna theorise, I reckon it isn't so much that we are bad at it, but more because others are good at it.

I remember the 100m free was like the "blue riband" event, especially for men, because whoever won was deemed to be the fastest swimmer. So my theory, which is the theory that is my own, because it is not anybody else's, is that it isn't valued in that way here anymore but it still is in other countries. Therefore they spend more time and effort trying to produce swimmers to win it and the swimmers as they are developing would see that as their ultimate goal rather than say the 200m free or any of the form strokes.

50m free of course doesn't count for "the fastest man in the water" because the swimming snobs still don't count it as a proper race. :devil: :rolleyes: ;)

[Bazza]

I'm glad I saw this thread - I was convinced there was something wrong with my computer and it was only showing the results of one semi final.

So was that the final or was it the semi final, with a final to come tomorrow?

[Sush]

From what I could tell it was swum as semi finals; 4 in one SF, 5 in the other, and I presume a final will then be swam tomorrow.

[lane4]

From what I could tell it was swum as semi finals; 4 in one SF, 5 in the other, and I presume a final will then be swam tomorrow.
You presume correct.

[Gina]

Yep that was the semi final. Not too confusing on poolside this morning. I was with one of the girls who made it onto the EJC 4x100 free relay. People need to be pressured into swimming fast in the heats so they can do the same in bigger competitions. It might be easy for some to progress at nationals, but a sub par heat swim at EJs means no second swim most of the time.

[DAK]

Yep that was the semi final. Not too confusing on poolside this morning. I was with one of the girls who made it onto the EJC 4x100 free relay. People need to be pressured into swimming fast in the heats so they can do the same in bigger competitions. It might be easy for some to progress at nationals, but a sub par heat swim at EJs means no second swim most of the time.

I agree that the pressure needs to be on to make the Semi-Final however, is there a case that there should be only one QT as I don't see the point in a different QT for younger swimmers if it means they only get a heat swim.

[Sush]

Yeah I think I agree with that about the QT. If they can only make the heats with that QT, they might as well have to make the senior one in the first plcae. There isn't much point if they're only going to be able to swim heats.

[Pink Paraffin]

Yeah I think I agree with that about the QT. If they can only make the heats with that QT, they might as well have to make the senior one in the first plcae. There isn't much point if they're only going to be able to swim heats.

I don't think that you've thought this point through fully. Bi-annually, the Trials are used as the qualification for the Euopean Youth Olympic Festival (as well as the EJC's and Major Games of the year, as is the case now). Swimmers inevitably have to qualify for the GB team from heats (as ages are 13/14 females and 15/16 males). Few make the cut for the semis or finals (by time or by heat position). Therefore, the heats become the qualification ground for this meet and not only that but it is rare that these guys get to go head to head. Inevitably, there's a lot of them stuck in outside lanes in cyclically seeded heats.

The swimmers most likely to feature at the EYOF's in 2007 should be at the Championships now learning how to produce great times in heats from lane 1 or 10 with a Senior Top 25 in the world athlete in lane 4

This experience is crucial if they want to make the grade next season. If they're not there, they are already at a disadvantage

[Sush]

But I thought the EJC qualifying times were faster than the senior qualifying times anyway?

The QTs for the EJCs are well faster than the senior entry QTs so any swimmer with a realistic chance of qualifying should be able to get through to the next round

[Linny]

But I thought the EJC qualifying times were faster than the senior qualifying times anyway?PP jumped onto EYOF in his post.

The youngest age bandings with the slowest consideration times in Sheffield aren't eligible to swim at EJC this year. I think what PP is suggesting is that these younger age groups have been given the opportunity to compete here for in preparation for qualifying and competing for next year - the older year in the banding for EJCs in 2007 and the younger year the EYOFs. The younger year eligible for EYOFs next year aren't in Sheffield this year though but where do you stop?