The future of Masters swimming [Archive]

Ivor

09-05-2006, 08:31 AM

Although I passionately support the principle of a consultation process for masters swimmers I am very disappointed about the way they have gone about it.

Does anyone know how they intend to distribute this questionnaire? Is it being printed and sent directly to clubs, members etc? Or is it just going to be available via the ASA site.

I appears to me at the moment that the process is not being promoted nearly enough to ensure the maximum possible response and widest range of views (competitive masters, fitness masters, occasional masters etc.)

I should say that when I'm not wasting time on UptheBeavers I'm also a director of one of the UK's leading research agencies. A couple of years ago I spoke to some people at the ASA about doing something significantly better than this for masters swimmers. Despite the fact I was offering all my company's services for free, nothing ever came of it.

And now this is what they come up with.

Personally I would never submit responses to anything that makes no mention of either the Data Protection Act or the Market Research Society (but then I'm a geek).

And don't even get me started on the other glaring technical problems with the questionnaire!

Leprechaun

09-05-2006, 09:21 AM

As others have said - good initiative, pants implementation. Looks like it has been rushed out (late) and with no obvious advance warning. I am sure Ivor and other professionals will pick holes in it, but it seems to me the sample will be skewed by virtue of its location ie the ASA website where (only/mostly)the regular suspects will find it.

Why not leave the implementation to professionals chaps?

Haddock

09-05-2006, 09:42 AM

So this is a national survey on the British swimming web site.

How do those from Scotland Wales and Ireland answer question 4.

Ivor

09-05-2006, 09:57 AM

the sample will be skewed by virtue of its location ie the ASA website where (only/mostly)the regular suspects will find it.

You are right - a self-selecting sample of this type will always be skewed to a degree and using such a method you are never going to be able to achieve a 'representative sample of masters swimmers'.

Therefore you have to take all possible measures to ensure that participation is maximised.

This, as far as I can tell, has not been done. Although I freely admit that I may be wrong.

What I do know is that a month or so ago I e-mailed the organiser and suggested amongst other things that, at the very least, they should contact some of the more popular swimming websites to ask them to plug it.

Have Swimclub.co.uk, Pullbuoy or (if I may be so bold) UptheBeavers heard anything since?

Er, no.

How do those from Scotland Wales and Ireland answer question 4.

As I said - don't get me started.

Linny

09-05-2006, 10:09 AM

Why the assumption that because it is on the British Swimming website it is aimed at all British masters swimmers? The British Swimming website is the ASA website too and it clearly says that it is an ASA initiative to develop a long term strategy - stop moaning.

I am sure that SASA and WASA are busy writing their own "initiatives" as we speak. That's how it works isn't it? :D

NotVeryFast

09-05-2006, 03:15 PM

Obviously we can all do our bit to help achieve a greater level of response by circulating the details within our clubs. It would be nice if the ASA did it themselves, and perhaps they will, but it can only help if we all play an active role ourselves.

Big Nev

09-05-2006, 09:04 PM

Surveys seem a strange way of moving forward.

Where is the original thought from the masses?

Presume you meant that Alan.

That's just it there is very little original thought. The masses are quite happy to let others do their thinking for them.

GettingFaster

10-05-2006, 06:30 AM

That's just it there is very little original thought. The masses are quite happy to let others do their thinking for them.

Sad, but true. I admit to being one of the thought-free masses. Though being the one at the bottom of the results list just about every time (and the one most likely to be left out when entry criteria are introduced) I don't think my opinion is as important to Masters swimming as that of people who do it properly. There are many people who, like me, do Masters swimming and Masters competitions purely for fun as a relief from the more serious aspects of life. I don't want to have to think, in fact I have chosen not to think. I will choose whether or not to participate in what's on offer but I am not interested in having to choose what is on offer. If it doesn't suit me, then I simply won't do it and I acknowledge that if I don't participate in deciding what's on offer I am not in a position to moan about it.

I'm not saying my attitude is right or wrong, I greatly appreciate the efforts many people in the swimming world put in to arranging and organising (and complaining so that things improve) but I'm not in the same place as them. There are so many other areas of my life that require lots of thought input, swimming is my release. (And at the moment I'm not even swimming at all, but that's a different story.) I am saying that as in any other political situation I have the right to choose not to contribute, just as a voter has the right to choose not to vote. (I did fill in the questionnaire though...)

Surprised not to see Juicy responding to this thread - perhaps he's fed up with too many people who have the same attitude as I have.

Leprechaun

10-05-2006, 09:27 AM

I looked for the company undertaking the research on behalf of the ASA - HNI (website on the questionnaire). Their website doesnt say anything but google reveals a survey on the British Lilbrary site:

"The Business of Swimming (HNI International, 2002) [(B) AK 40 BUS]
Report includes information on the market size, demographic profiles of swimmers, consumer behavior, facilities for outdoor swimming, prices, school swimming, local authority pools, swimming clubs and water safety."

Ivor

10-05-2006, 09:45 AM

It is all being coordinated by a guy called Kelvin Juba who is 'a fully-qualified swimming coach and the author of a number of highly successful books about swimming' and was 'instrumental in organizing the first masters meet in England'. Although I don't know him he certainly seems to have relevant swimming-based experience.

According to the March minutes (http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-104829-0-file,00.pdf) from the ASA Technical Masters Committee 'Kelvin had been appointed by the ASA Chief Executive to "carry out a consultation exercise among existing and potential masters swimmers, to collate and publish the results from the consultation and to write a strategy for masters swimming linked to the findings from the consultation exercise."'

I am not, for one minute, questioning his ability to write the strategy based on his experience and on the information he receives. However, from what I have seen, his data collection and general operational research methods leave an awful lot to be desired.

Without decent data there is no guarantee that any subsequent findings will be accurate - and since this is going to form the basis for the next ten years of masters swimming I kind of think accuracy is important.

This now marks three serious posts for me IN A ROW - which is a record.

I don't want to bang on about this endlessly, but I really feel that the whole consultation process is of the utmost importance. And, if a job's worth doing, it's worth doing well.

NotVeryFast

10-05-2006, 09:54 AM

So why is someone looking to move things in a different direction, has anyone complained the current system is wrong?

If it is not broken why mend it?
For example, quite a few people complain about entry fees for the major events. There are several questions in the survey aimed at that specific issue, looking at people's income, what they spend on different aspects of swimming, and whether cost is an issue for them in deciding whether to swim at any particular meet.

Of course, Juicy Lucy will probably say that it's all just a cynical ploy to support charging even higher entry fees in the future :devil:

Big Nev

10-05-2006, 11:50 AM

If the ASA are trying to limit entry numbers by a financial method they are going to end up with competitions frequented purely by the richest swimmers and not the best.

The only fair solution to limiting entry sizes is to have qualifying times for the National Competitions.

Otherwise we could end up like Triathlon. A friend of mine was in the top 10 in the country in mid 90's. They hiked up the entry fees to limit entries...he couldn't afford it so came out of the sport. He says the National Champs seem to be a lot of rich folk with £3000 bikes and cool kit and no talent. (generalisation I know but you can see were he's coming from)

ginga61

10-05-2006, 01:53 PM

Agree with you Ivor. Having just filled the survey in, there were a number of questions that I didn't understand, and I've been involved in masters swimming for years. So, I've ended up answering the questions I think they're asking, but who knows if I've got it right...

No offense to the consulting company, but it does smack slightly of an undergrad student throwing something together the night before their assignment was due for submission...not a great impression.

Can't belive the ASA turned down your kind offer to provide professional assistance.

angelman

10-05-2006, 06:41 PM

Sorry, I mentioned under another topic.

This has already been circulated on the yahoo masters egroup (ukmasterswimmers).
I imagine many of you already participate in that.
It first appeared in public on Verity Dobbie's Masters page in the Swimming Times (May Edition).

Juicy is on a coaching holiday and unable to respond, but now NVF has rattled the bear's cage we can only wait in anticipation....

I agree that the form was poorly designed functionally, as well as being a technical disaster.....and it took agood 15 to 20' to complete (perhaps I had a lot to propose).

NVF, apathy doesn't become you, you often have strong opinions, rightly or wrongly, that's what we, and the ASA need.

Kelvin Juba may be there on the grounds of ASA cronyism?
Is that too hammy a thing to say or am I being bland?

Perhaps our other pool consultant Ivor has a contact he can ask (Michael B maybe)?

Leprechaun

11-05-2006, 08:03 AM

Sorry, I mentioned under another topic.

Juicy is on a coaching holiday and unable to respond, but now NVF has rattled the bear's cage we can only wait in anticipation....

I agree that the form was poorly designed functionally, as well as being a technical disaster.....and it took agood 15 to 20' to complete (perhaps I had a lot to propose).

Kelvin Juba may be there on the grounds of ASA cronyism?
Is that too hammy a thing to say or am I being bland?

Perhaps our other pool consultant Ivor has a contact he can ask (Michael B maybe)?

Excellent!

I assume that we would have a right to ask a couple of pertinent questions such as when they (he?) stops taking responses, what number of returns they get and when the report will come out (and be seen??). If we have that humble right can someone with a way into the bureaucracy please ask the questions or at least ask someone on high how many signatures petitions and/or sacrifices we have to make to get our question answered?

Verity

20-05-2006, 03:39 PM

Excellent!

I assume that we would have a right to ask a couple of pertinent questions such as when they (he?) stops taking responses, what number of returns they get and when the report will come out (and be seen??). If we have that humble right can someone with a way into the bureaucracy please ask the questions or at least ask someone on high how many signatures petitions and/or sacrifices we have to make to get our question answered?

Hi small green person

I will be asking the questions as above, cos I'm nosy and like to know things and also it's hard to evaluate the report if we don't know how representative it is. I will probably write about them in my column, or who knows if I ever get the hang of this thing I might even post them here.

(I do take on board Ivor's criticisms/comments about its circulation) The original plan was to distribute it at meets, Kelvin will be at Manchester and available to chat to there (although I accept this narrows the pool of answers down to a small proportion of competitive masters) It has gone on the WEB and I would encourage as many of us (masters swimmers) as possible to complete it and please pass it around to as many non-competitive members of your club so we get a broad spectrum of responses. I understand that it has been sent out to registered swimmers (my husband got one last week). The more we respond the more the "bureaucracy" will sit up and notice.

On a more general note I have been reading this for months and dithering about whether or not I should register, I did feel guilty reading our leaders plea for people to not just guest. I've also been mulling over whether or not I should try and be anonymous, but I couldn't think of a clever enough nom de plume, anyway I thought I'd just stick my head above the parapet so that Juicy Lucy had a target "in plain sight" for her frequent rants about Hadrian. (If she's interested I don't even bother picking up my medals, except to donate them to the Swimmers Trust or whatever it's called!)

Cheers

Big Nev

20-05-2006, 04:13 PM

Nice one Verity...welcome to the rant site.

Having said that not all the posters are ranters. Some are even nice

Spidey

21-05-2006, 04:56 PM

Juicy Lucy had a target "in plain sight" for her frequent rants about Hadrian. (If she's interested
Cheers

V, is JL a she? Who knows the mystery of swimclub. I am not wearing the green leggins for the 1500m this year, found anouther more suitable pair.

Verity

21-05-2006, 06:34 PM

Hi Spidey

I'd already worked out who you are! I was just thinking as I filled in my entry form for the 1500 at Manchester (actually while I was applying for the mortgage to pay the entry fees!) I wonder whether I'll be chasing green frogs legs up and down the pool again.

It shows what a chat room virgin I am, it never even occured to me that JL was anything but female, something to do with the quality of the bitching and vitriol heaped upon us HM's maybe.

Verity

Juicy Lucy

21-05-2006, 08:36 PM

.... It shows what a chat room virgin I am, it never even occured to me that JL was anything but female, something to do with the quality of the bitching and vitriol heaped upon us HM's maybe.

Verity

A virgin of your age in the chat room? Now there's a first for the swimclub forum!

As for the bitching and vitriol, I prefer to call it 'pointing out the unfairness in masters swimming' that many masters aren't aware of. Somebody has to do it, Verity. There aren't many on the Masters Committee prepared to stand up and be counted.

It wasn't all aimed at Hadrian Masters. In fact I did mention the British Police team (at great risk to myself - I've got enough speeding penalty points already) as the biggest offenders of all. But either way you look at it, renegade teams, who hardly know each other, and are put together just to win relay medals by thrashing 'ordinary' masters clubs in the National Championships are not doing masters swimming, or themselves, any favours.

Of course Hadrian Masters comes in for a lot of criticism, and stretches credibility beyond belief, because it is a 'club' team made up of swimmers from different countries! It turns into a pantomime farce when they try to speak to each other. The Scots always complain that they can't understand a word the Geordies are saying.

Regarding the form, through past experience, I am very suspicious of the real reason for producing it. I keep hearing the recent words, spoken from above, "We will keep charging masters swimmers more and more until we can take as much as possible off them".

Why should the earnings of masters swimmers be requested, if not to see whether they can afford to pay more? This question stinks as much as the reason for denying the Southern swimmers the use of conversion tables when they had to swim a National competition in a 50m pool while the rest of the country enjoyed swimming the same event in a short course pool. When masters are asked to dig deeper into their pockets for future registration and entry fees, they will know why. If you think the National entry fees are high now, wait until next year.

I won't be returning my form for a variety of reasons, but the one question about whether masters swimming needs the services of a National Development Officer did intrigue me. Masters swimming needs an NDO who does not suck up to the ASA, who can be trusted by the masters fraternity to champion their views, who is selfless in wanting to see masters swimming thrive, and who, above all, is approachable.

I can't think of a better person for the job than you, Verity. You have been a lone voice in the past in standing up to the hierarchy. You will get my 100 per cent support...virgin or not.

Juicy Lucy

Big Nev

21-05-2006, 09:06 PM

Hey, nice one Juicy.

I totally agree with everything you said in that post.

(apart from the southern masters being allowed to use conversion tables)

Let's face it they have better facilities than us poor Northerners swimming in old canals and quarries.

Only joking Lucy...nice one.

I'll add my vote to yours for Verity.

Juicy Lucy

22-05-2006, 03:21 PM

V, is JL a she? Who knows the mystery of swimclub.

I was so worried about whether I was male or female that I've spent a couple of minutes checking!

You'll be pleased to know that I've just looked at my passport and I can confirm that everything is where it should be. Phew, what a relief!

It should have been obvious anyway. My show of love and affection towards Ruthcp and Linny in previous posts was from the heart, but alas, a giveaway.

Then Angelman came along and confused you all by openly displaying his jealousy.

JL

Linny

22-05-2006, 04:05 PM

My show of love and affection towards Ruthcp and Linny in previous posts was from the heart, but alas, a giveaway.You're a boy?!? :confused: I thought you were just er well er you know oh never mind. :cry: ;) :p

Spidey

22-05-2006, 07:27 PM

I've spent a couple of minutes checking!
JL

That long eh? Buth the letter M of F is quite hard to locate on the passport, took me an age just then.

Verity

23-05-2006, 04:59 PM

"Why should the earnings of masters swimmers be requested, if not to see whether they can afford to pay more? " This question stinks

I guess I asked for this didn't I?

I accept responsibility for the smelly question, you may or may not be aware that the questionnaire is pretty much a direct crib from the original masters survey completed back in 1993/94 and there was a question on there about income. The draft I saw had this ommitted and I asked why it shouldn't be included my (irrational?) rationale for this was that I though we should have some socio-economic data on masters for the purposes of trying to sell our discipline to sponsors or for promotional purposes. It might also support the argument that we cannot afford the escalating entry fees. (although I think this is unlikely)

It was not an attempt to screw even more money out of us. I do recognise that this information may be used by "them" to do this.

As for JL's favourite soap box topic HM and the unfairness in masters swimming' There is nothing illegal in the formation or competing of HM. Our sport is giverned by rules which are there to ensure a minimum level of fairness and provided we don't contravene them then what's the problem. Anybody can do what we did, HM was formed because we all saw a competitive opportunity. as for stretching the bounds of credibility... Isn't the simple definition of a club " a group of individuals who join together to further a mutual aim or interest" I think this very aptly descibes the swimmers in HM or BP for that matter. (I can't believe that I'm sticking up for the busies here)

And finally as for the "pantomine farce" all I can say to that is "OH NO IT ISN'T!"

Can you tell I've been itching to get involved in this argument. I am rapidly developing a Man U mentatlity (We're Hadrian you hate us) and a very thick skin.

Howay the lads!

Big Nev

23-05-2006, 06:48 PM

I said about HM in the original posts that I wasn't worried about their formation.

I still stand by that. It gives the other smaller clubs something to aim at.

Aquabears for instance used to run off with all the National golds for our ladies' teams at 160. For a few years this hasn't happened.Now they add up to 200 they are winning again, in the early part of their age group. This is an exercise in keeping the Club swimmers together.This may have something to do with the fact they all live in Rochdale except for one and she has always been in the Social circle we have at the club.

The mixed teams have always been strong. This is because we can't find enough guys of the right standard. Only 2 at a time. Doesn't stop us training though. The Club's ambition is to win a men's relay gold in the future. Without importing anyone.

This doesn't mean HM are wrong, just a different mentality.

Phew...I hope you get what I mean. :king:

Juicy Lucy

24-05-2006, 11:23 AM

Anybody can do what we did, HM was formed because we all saw a competitive opportunity....

While Big Nev was gazing down the gob at a gold filling of some terrified unfortunate geezer, he too saw a competitive opportunity. That of wanting to win a gold relay medal with swimmers from his own club. How refreshing! Strange how this same opportunity wasn't seen by those swimmers who felt the need to form Hadrian Masters.

"There is nothing illegal in competing as Hadrian Masters." Of course there isn't. But how can it be morally acceptable to enlist swimmers from different countries in order to thrash the opposition which is made up of genuine swimmers like Big Nev's mates who come from the same small club in Rochdale?

Considering that a good proportion of the Masters Committee swim for these clubs of convenience, I wonder what the response was when the subject of 'unfairness due to conglomerates competing amongst us' was raised? I would guess the embarrassed toadies quickly went on to the next point on the agenda, that of supporting the ASA in their quest to raise entry fees again and again.

Verity begrudgingly admits that by including the question of masters earnings in the survey, this information may be used by the hierarchy to screw more money out of us. Take out 'may' and replace it with 'will'. It's as certain as Hadrian Masters recruiting even more swimmers of convenience who are eager to win a relay medal under any circumstance.

I propose that every masters swimmer in the UK should join HM. There would be no opposition at the Nationals because there would be no other clubs! Just think of the pride and satisfaction we'd all have. Gold, Silver and Bronze for our very own club in every event. We'd all be members of the top club.

Wouldn't this be a fantastic 'competitive opportunity'? As Verity said, "It's not illegal."

I'm sending my application form today. All I need to do is learn the lingo so that I could converse with strangers from both sides of the Wall. "Och aye the noo, howay the lads, pet!"

Juicy Lucy

NotVeryFast

24-05-2006, 11:58 AM

I propose that every masters swimmer in the UK should join HM. There would be no opposition at the Nationals because there would be no other clubs!
At the GBs, though, each club can only enter one team per age group per event, so most people wouldn't get to swim in a relay if everyone represented the same club. The current system is basically a free market - those who are interested in doing so can get together to form elite teams, those who aren't bothered will represent their own club. What I don't understand is why someone who is bothered wouldn't just get on with it and join a conglomerate. Get that form sent in Juicy ;)

Big Nev

24-05-2006, 01:46 PM

I am bothered about swimming and the reason that I haven't joined a conglomerate, despite being asked, is that I enjoy swimming with the people that I train with week in week out.

That doesn't mean I dislike the thought of swimming with, say for instance, the guys and gals at HM, 'cos I know a few of them quite well. It's just that I swim and socialise with the Rochdale lot and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to get home in a taxi when the after swim pub session goes on a little bit too long.

Shock: Masters swimmer gets drunk!!!

Juicy Lucy

24-05-2006, 01:54 PM

What I don't understand is why someone who is bothered wouldn't just get on with it and join a conglomerate. Get that form sent in Juicy ;)

What I don't understand is how someone can get satisfaction from winning a relay medal by joining forces with faster swimmers who are not members of their home club. Surely the greater satisfaction is knowing that you have won by using your own swimmers, rather than using those mercenaries from over the Wall.

I, along with some contributors to this forum, put loyalty to one's coach and club first. Others clearly don't.

These renegade Geordies and Scots are at the very top of masters swimming, and as individuals have won medals and set records at European and world level. Why do they need to join forces to win relay medals too?

If you are thinking 'fools gold', you are probably right.

Juicy Lucy

Big Nev

24-05-2006, 01:58 PM

If you are thinking 'fools gold', you are probably right.

Juicy Lucy

I don't think any of them are Fools.

I know what you're getting at though.

NotVeryFast

24-05-2006, 02:04 PM

I, along with some contributors to this forum, put loyalty to one's coach and club first. Others clearly don't.
So Juicy, would you refuse to form a relay team with members of your own club who don't actually train with the club?

adamlelean

24-05-2006, 02:52 PM

"There is nothing illegal in competing as Hadrian Masters." Of course there isn't. But how can it be morally acceptable to enlist swimmers from different countries in order to thrash the opposition which is made up of genuine swimmers like Big Nev's mates who come from the same small club in Rochdale?

While I understand your argument the different countries part is invalid. I live in one county and train in another. This must happen on a national level as well as a county level.

At large events if I'm very lucky the club I train with most frequently may have 4 swimmers, at the GB's there will be just me. I train at another club, about 30 miles away, this club is considerably bigger than my local club, is it unreasonable for me to swim under their banner at big meets, so that I can get a relay swim. We're not likely to get any medals.

Should another composite team be forbidden from competing just because their composite team is made of good swimmers, and the team I'm in isn't.

For those worried about factual accuracy there's only one swimmer swimming under the banner of my local club at the GB's (me) and only 1 swimmer from the bigger club, so there's no way we could have formed a relay even if I were swimming under the banner of the larger club.

Verity

24-05-2006, 03:37 PM

I like your thinking Juicy, we'd be delighted to have you

Big Nev

24-05-2006, 04:37 PM

I like your thinking Juicy, we'd be delighted to have you

:speechles :speechles

Juicy Lucy

24-05-2006, 08:33 PM

So Juicy, would you refuse to form a relay team with members of your own club who don't actually train with the club?

Of course I would NVF, but only if they trained with another club.

If they didn't train with another club, but on their own, then no problem.

Very deep question! Are you spy for Verity's Hadrians Wall Club?

JL

NotVeryFast

24-05-2006, 09:10 PM

Of course I would NVF, but only if they trained with another club.

If they didn't train with another club, but on their own, then no problem.
That seems reasonable, I see your logic. So presumably you have no problem with any HM swimmers who train on their own and aren't members of any other club? I have no idea if there are any such swimmers or not.

Juicy Lucy

25-05-2006, 08:54 AM

how did this thread move from being about a survey to a discussion about HM?

In posting number 20, Verity, when bravely 'coming out' by sticking her head above the parapet, (wall?) mentioned 'frequent rants about Hadrian Masters'.

Some threads tend to take diversions.

As another diversion, which you may also find unpalatable, isn't is amazing that some masters openly state they are not interested in medals, yet in the next breath say that they will be at the Nationals as their club's only representative. This then becomes a valid reason for wanting to join another club to enter relays in order to win medals.

So, Alan, are you happy with the content of the survey? Will you return it, filled in, or bung it in the bin, as I have?

JL

Juicy Lucy

25-05-2006, 09:46 AM

As I am retired, my time is limited, responses to these things are done in my time. Now if I was a worker, I could do the responses in somebody else’s time.

This comes to mind...

Boss: Where have you been this afternoon?
Worker: To the barber's shop for a haircut.
Boss: Why did you go in the work's time?
Worker: Well, it grew in the works time.
Boss: It didn't 'all' grow in the work's time.
Worker: I haven't had all of it cut off!

Come off it Alan, if you are retired then you have unlimited time.

JL

Verity

25-05-2006, 12:47 PM

Alan

You could type your response in Word and then cut and paste it into these box thingeys.

I agree with JL I'm responsible for the diverted thread sorry

Juicy Lucy

25-05-2006, 02:55 PM

Alan

I agree with JL I'm responsible for the diverted thread sorry

No need to apologise Verity. Threads get diverted all the time.

You've been responsible for many diversions over the years. None of them make any sense to me, but I love you all the same.

JL

Taxiandbank

25-05-2006, 04:34 PM

Alan follow this link and ask Kelvin yourself.
http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-104829-0-file,00.pdf

Verity

25-05-2006, 04:47 PM

Question 44 mentions 2 Key performance Indicators - so who selected these KPI’s and why? Are they appropriate? Does someone somewhere get a pay rise or bonus for meeting the KPIs? What is a swimfit swimmer? Where do they fit in the ASA?

Question 42 refers to specialist, what do they specialise in and how would they help me or my club?

Hi Alan

Our KPI's were selected by the GB Board w/out reference to the committee they are to increase the number of registered masters and to increase the number of swimmers in the world top ten rankings. Are they appropriate I'm not sure? As for pay rises/bonuses I'm not sure about this but think that they are linked to funding initiatives.

As for swimfit swimmers in many ways I think this is the real debate, how far should the ASA become involved in influencing adult swimming, we already deal with the competitive end with some or little success depending on your view point, but should we be taking in the full spectrum of adult swimmers and be seeking to influence the teaching of swimmers, the education of coaches, the utilsation of water time for adults who want to use the pool as a gym i.e seriously for keep fit purposes but without competing. Clearly to bring all of these factors under ASA control could have huge PR and financial clout for the ASA and raise awareness of our sport and feeding into the demand for more and better facilities. Sorry some wooly thinking going on here but you can see there is a huge opportunity and potential and the ASA is struggling as to how to tap into it.

Specialists they are members of the Masters committee who oversee special areas. David Chaney does records, Geoff Stokes does communications?newsletter/ and I think Paul who's surname escapes me is the coaching rep

Does this help or am I teaching my grandmother to suck eggs

Juicy Lucy

26-05-2006, 02:30 PM

.... should we be taking in the full spectrum of adult swimmers and be seeking to influence the teaching of swimmers, the education of coaches, the utilisation of water time for adults who want to use the pool as a gym i.e seriously for keep fit purposes but without competing. Clearly to bring all of these factors under ASA control could have huge PR and financial clout for the ASA and raise awareness of our sport...

The ASA has been told there is a possible source of revenue from adult swimmers who attend their pools regularly for morning swimming. Naturally they want to get their grubby hands on this money, but in reality it isn't there at all.

My local pools used to put plastic-covered sessions on the poolside at the end of every lane for the 'earlybirds' to follow. Nobody was interested and now these printed sessions are never seen. The regulars want to do their 50 lengths at their own pace before going to work. That's all. They don't want to be told what to do. These poolside sessions included kicking sets and involved swimmers going off set times. It was an absolute joke. The inclination wasn't there.

I object to any of the masters funds (from exorbitant entry fees and affiliation fees) being used to try to get these 'public' swimmers to do as they are told. They are not interested.

If you indicate in the survey that you are happy to see the general public being encouraged to participate in some strange way, without competing in masters events, then you are, in effect, agreeing that you will pay towards the costs of setting this up. You will have given the green light to the ASA, and the Masters Committee, to raise entry fees through the roof in order to fund this puerile experiment.

I would urge every masters swimmer to be careful how the questions are answered. If you think the question is of little importance to you, then you can be sure there is a hidden agenda.

The ASA is happy to take as much money as it can from masters swimming because adults can afford it. Always bear this in mind. And, sadly, the Masters Committee, who are there supposedly to represent us, will only tell us what they want us to know.

Juicy

NotVeryFast

26-05-2006, 03:34 PM

My local pools used to put plastic-covered sessions on the poolside at the end of every lane for the 'earlybirds' to follow. Nobody was interested and now these printed sessions are never seen. The regulars want to do their 50 lengths at their own pace before going to work. That's all. They don't want to be told what to do. These poolside sessions included kicking sets and involved swimmers going off set times. It was an absolute joke. The inclination wasn't there.

I object to any of the masters funds (from exorbitant entry fees and affiliation fees) being used to try to get these 'public' swimmers to do as they are told. They are not interested.
I'd agree with this - the private health club I'm a member of does free coached sessions twice a week. The problem is that the ability of the swimmers varies too widely for it to work. If we do 100s on 2:00, say, I'll be close to catching the last swimmer on my last length. And even 2:00 is quite fast for many swimmers, a lot of the swimmers at the health club can't actually swim 100m in 2 minutes. Anyway, interest seemed to soon fizzle out, and I suspect people started avoiding the time when the session is on. I went at that time last night and the pool was very quiet, and the coach wasn't there, so perhaps they've given up. I agree that the majority of leisure swimmers seem to just want to do some continuous swimming.

If you indicate in the survey that you are happy to see the general public being encouraged to participate in some strange way, without competing in masters events, then you are, in effect, agreeing that you will pay towards the costs of setting this up.
Now this I don't agree with. There are far more Masters swimmers at my club than those who compete. Roughly 10% of us compete, perhaps. The club has separate programmes for "Masters" and "Swimfit", though sometimes they're just separate lanes at the same session. So, encouraging more participation on the part of non-competitive swimmers won't necessarily cost competing swimmers money, it might help to reduce club fee by economies of scale.

Big Nev

26-05-2006, 05:41 PM

Now this I don't agree with. There are far more Masters swimmers at my club than those who compete. Roughly 10% of us compete, perhaps. The club has separate programmes for "Masters" and "Swimfit", though sometimes they're just separate lanes at the same session. So, encouraging more participation on the part of non-competitive swimmers won't necessarily cost competing swimmers money, it might help to reduce club fee by economies of scale.

It's like that at Aquabears. Only about 10% compete.

This year we have fewer at GB's than ever before, because of the prices. This is for a competition with no hotel charges and minimum travelling.

Juicy Lucy

26-05-2006, 06:58 PM

It's like that at Aquabears. Only about 10% compete.

Be careful, Big Nev, the ASA are not talking about non-competing masters. They want money to be spent on capturing innocent members of the public who have no interest in masters swimming and never will have. There's a hidden agenda that you/we are not being fully told about, but your cash will be used. I'm sure our masters committee forum member will be willing to give more details about this.

I don't warn you lightly Big Nev, You and the rest of us will be used to financially help out. Again, be careful how you answer the questions in the survey.

Juicy

Spidey

26-05-2006, 10:50 PM

As another diversion, which you may also find unpalatable, isn't is amazing that some masters openly state they are not interested in medals, yet in the next breath say that they will be at the Nationals as their club's only representative. This then becomes a valid reason for wanting to join another club to enter relays in order to win medals.
JL

That's only true to those who want it to be, loyalty to a club is a nice thing to have - don't knock it.

Verity

27-05-2006, 01:05 AM

Be careful, Big Nev, the ASA are not talking about non-competing masters. They want money to be spent on capturing innocent members of the public who have no interest in masters swimming and never will have. There's a hidden agenda that you/we are not being fully told about, but your cash will be used. I'm sure our masters committee forum member will be willing to give more details about this.

I don't warn you lightly Big Nev, You and the rest of us will be used to financially help out. Again, be careful how you answer the questions in the survey.

Juicy

No Juicy this isn't right, the ASA currently offers a reasonable programe for the competitive masters but does very little for the swimfitters who are members of clubs, my own club Gateshead & Whickham (not HM) is just like every body elses we have a significant majority of members who never compete yet are still members of the ASA what should our governing body be doing for them? The general public and trying to draw them into the ASA fold is another question altogether both are issues we need to consider even if it is simply to reject them.

Verity

Juicy Lucy

27-05-2006, 08:23 AM

.... my own club Gateshead & Whickham (not HM) is just like every body elses we have a significant majority of members who never compete yet are still members of the ASA what should our governing body be doing for them? The general public and trying to draw them into the ASA fold is another question altogether both are issues we need to consider even if it is simply to reject them.

Verity

Unfortunately for the ASA, the non-competing club members don't want to take part in masters competitions. There is nothing our governing body can do for them. These swimmers don't want any more than to be in a club for the social aspect and to keep reasonably fit. There's nothing wrong with this. They should be left in peace to do as they please.

Drawing the general public into the ASA fold is an even bigger waste of time and money. The local clubs will attract them, if that's what the swimmer wants.

My main concern is that the ASA are only too willing to use masters money to fund this whim.

Maybe the Masters Committee has suggested to the ASA that it would be a good idea for them to go down this route because there will be potentially much revenue to be gained? The Masters Committee have to show the ASA that they are doing something, after all.

Naturally I'm suspicious, especially when a survey is sent out asking swimmers how much they earn. I'm also one of the growing number of masters who are asking, "If the Masters Committee won't represent our views, then who will?"

Spidey! At last, a moment of genius from you! I'm with you on the loyalty front, 100 per cent. Loyalty to one's club and coach should always come before the desire to grab medals by joining strangers to form a relay.

Juice

NotVeryFast

23-03-2007, 08:34 PM

The report from this survey has now been published, not sure when (it's just dated March 2007), just noticed it in the Masters section on the ASA website:

http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5026-49221-119445-0-file,00.pdf

Speedy Gonzalez

24-03-2007, 07:19 AM

Very interesting statistics - I noticed that the largest percentage of Masters swimmers is from the South East. Does Guildford count as South East?

It is a good report but I am sure they could have come to all of those conclusions just by reading this forum.

Verity

24-03-2007, 08:27 AM

Hi Guys

I comment on the Strategy in my next column in the comic. I agree that it is not perfect, or even groundbreaking and we have all been moaning on for ages about it's conclusions to the ASA. However, there is a huge amount of positive initiatives recommended which will ultimately make our sport stronger contained in it's conclusions.

I can say that it has been through the ASA committee and it was accepted by them they recognise the importance of the piece of work which needs to be done with Masters (and the wider world of adult swimming). A bid is already in with Sport England for funding for the post identified in the document and I would expect that person to be up and running by the end of the summer.

A professional at the head of our discipline will not make the strategy work, what we need is for everybody involved in the sport to be positive about the future and to get involved with their clubs, counties and districts to make things happen.

From my experience over the last 12 years working with the ASA through the national committee, whilst the bureaucracy is a complete pain in the backside to deal with and at times can be extremely frustrating and slow, we all able to introduce initiatives particularly when we present them with a fait accompli. What I mean by this is that we have identified a job to be done, found a person to do it, and then pushed ahead to implement it. Examples of this include the Master's newsletter, rankings, records, the decathlon, the intercounty competition, the annual reception at the international event, and the Masters seminars and conference.

If we present head office with completed plans they have never stopped us from doing anything. Most of them have been very successful down to the hard work of the individual or individuals who take responsibility for these projects. Occasionally we do meet problems for example with kit where in my view we have a good generic kit available for Masters, but do run into problems with the event specific stuff. This is because as a national organisation we are contractually tied to Speedo, and to a degree reliant upon them.

My conclusion is therefore that if more people would come forward with positive proposals and be prepared to commit some time and effort to the sport then is really little to limit our development.

So stopped whingeing about what the strategy does and doesn't say and just ask yourself what can I do to move our sport on.

Verity