Mercenaries

[rogant stard]

First post here.
Was just wondering what the Scots feel about swimmers such as, well no need to name names, switching allegiance from England to Scotland in a transparent attempt to gain International honours and 'major games' experience?
Personally I find it incomprehensible.
What will probably happen is what happened last time in KL when one City of Leeds female switched allegiance for the games, never to be seen this side of the border again - wonder if we'll have a repeat with her clubmate if she makes it?
Maybe this brings in to question the whole question of eligibilty (reminds me of the Tara campaign - what happened to that?) - but maybe Scottish Swimming don't care and just want good swimmers regardless of their true nationality?
Let me know your thoughts.

[crawler]

I like your style for a first time posting. None of this "hello I'm X and I like swimming at Y or Z because the water's nice and blue"

No, let's think of the most controversial topic in the history of the board, light the blue touch-paper and then retreat to a safe distance...

Leaving Tara to one side, is this really a wide-spread thing proven in previous Games, and has it affected Wales, NI, in the past? If so, how many swimmers - name names (carefully).

PS are we certain that Alison Sheppard,Ian Edmond aren't really English - pls,pls

[Chris]

Welcome to the board Rogant.

Nothing like sturring the coals on this controversial topic to brighten a dreary Wednesday morning!!!

If you don't mind me saying so, you're pretty young to be a chief coach - particularly of what I imagine to be a largish club. Makes me feel as though I've wasted a large part of my life :rolleyes: (no it's ok, I have vague recollections of tremendous alcohol consumption, horrible hangovers, waking up in strange places ..... my life hasn't been so bad :D )

Back to the topic .... I personally think that switching nationalities for the sake of making international appearances under your new flag is a pretty pathetic way of going about things - but then I've never been good enough to be considered as an international for any country (well maybe one of those small African nations ... )

Wilson Kipketer switched from Kenya to Denmark in the athletics, but I suggest he was probably good enough to compete for either country. Maybe that should be the criteria - if you're good enough to compete for either, then you can pick which one.

[rogant stard]

No point beating about the bush.
This really only came to light (again) when my friend asked me yesterday how long Karen Nisbet (Leeds) had been Scottish. I had to express ignorance, and wasn't aware that Karen (whom I swam alongside on the England Youth Squad some time ago(!!)) had decided to switch her allegiance, although she has apparently been on the Scottish Senior Squad since the summer. She would be following in the footsteps of Kirsty Thomson (also Leeds and who I also swam alongside on the same squad!!) if she were to get a Commy Games spot this time around.
That's all the names I feel it necessary to publish here, though I'm sure you can all think of other high profile turncoats, and indeed find many other examples in other sports (Matt Elliott, that fine example of a braveheart centreback being one).
My aim was really to get the views of true Scots on this subject ie how they feel about non-Scots representing their country, but if my post is to reach a wider audience and achieve a more sizeable feedback then I'll be more than happy!;)

[Bazza]

There are a few major issues/questions here.
The main one from your side of the fence is what is more important - international success or being represented by the 'right' people (poorly put I know!)??
From the other side the question is what is more important - representing your country, or gaining international recognition. And secondly, which is your country:
- The one you were born in,
- The one you've lived in most of your life,
- The one your great, great grandfather once heard a story about.

Going back to the first one, you mentioned Matt Elliott. He has performed well for Scotland and never been anything other than totally committed, but he could have represented England, and the question is; Did he choose Scotland because he didn't think England would pick him and he wanted to play international football??? Is this right? People may disagree with his selection, especially those who are say friends and family of the born and bred Scottish guy who missed out as a result, yet nobody can complain about the job he's done.
The same goes for swimming, and probably all sports. People sometimes choose their 'second claim' country, because they fel they will never be picked for their first one. It depends on your situation as to whether this is right or wrong...

[rogant stard]

You see, I just don't get it myself.
I'm not particularly nationalistic (I can't really afford to be as an English guy living in Scotland!), but I can't comprehend turning my back on my country of birth/origin/long time dwelling purely in order to win a place on a 'lesser' country's team.
I can see that the temptation must be there - an easy route onto a 'major' games team and all the glory that brings with it - but I question the conscience and moral fibre of those who succumb.
I want to see Scottish Swimming succeed (and right now I think it's doing well - mainly thanks to it's large contingent of English coaches;) ) but don't take any pleasure from seeing these mercenaries performing well for their adopted country (but do give their performances the individual merit they deserve).
I would be particularly annoyed if I were to be coaching a CG contender only to find some months out that Miss X had decided she wasn't going to make the English team and wanted to play her joker and claim Scottish nationality.
Have to dash now but hopefully more later.

Oh, guess I am quite young for a Head Coach, and yes it is quite a largish club but what can I say?

[crawler]

...which brings us back to the fact that everything is governed by the qualification used by sports bodies to consider eligibility for representing a country.
You cannot necessarily blame an individual from taking advantage of the rules to achieve the best result for themselves.
Personally I think that birth in a particular country, or it being one/both parents birthplace, should be the ONLY criteria used for any sports qualification.

This is of particular significance for minority sports where qualification by residence for a set time enables talented athletes to bypass the system. This does not encourage national sports bodies to develop their own youth programmes but goes for the quick fix.

We are back to the trouble you get where funding is governed wholly by medals success and therefore the quick fix is seen as the solution.

Sorry for such a heavy response!

[Chris]

Originally posted by bazzaroodoo
Going back to the first one, you mentioned Matt Elliott. He has performed well for Scotland and never been anything other than totally committed, but he could have represented England, and the question is; Did he choose Scotland because he didn't think England would pick him and he wanted to play international football???

Staying away from the subject of swimming (there is more to life than swimming :devil: ) another athlete that this rule would apply to is Guernsey's own Matt Le Tissier. As a Channel Islander he was entitled to represent either England/Northern Ireland/Scotland/Wales/France internationally (as a footballer - I'm sure you knew that :D ) He chose England, and as a result stayed out of the international football scene because his talent wasn't recognised. He could have represented one of the others but chose not to.

[Bazza]

Look at Vinnie Jones :cool: who represented Wales. Believe me there are dozens of footballers who frantically research their family tree at the slightest hint of qualifying for a lesser country (no offense:) ), knowing they won't get a look in with England, or whoever. The same happens in swimming.
I agree that it's down to the governing bodies - with a silly rule such as 6 months residency, of course you're going to get a whole bunch of wannabe (sorry!) internationals trying their luck, and personally I don't blame them. I would do the same if I was in that position (though unfortunately I don't think I could even qualify for Equitorial Guinea at the moment!!).:p

[rogant stard]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bazzaroodoo
[B]of course you're going to get a whole bunch of wannabe (sorry!) internationals trying their luck, and personally I don't blame them. I would do the same if I was in that position[B]

But would you feel a sense of pride representing 'your' country as you would imagine international representatives should?

[rogant stard]

Originally posted by Chris


Staying away from the subject of swimming (there is more to life than swimming :devil: ) another athlete that this rule would apply to is Guernsey's own Matt Le Tissier. As a Channel Islander he was entitled to represent either England/Northern Ireland/Scotland/Wales/France internationally (as a footballer - I'm sure you knew that :D ) He chose England, and as a result stayed out of the international football scene because his talent wasn't recognised. He could have represented one of the others but chose not to.

But Matt didn't take the easy option. He made a choice that if he wanted to be in a successful national team then he would have to ignore the marginal lure of the other Home Countries and try to make it with England. He could have been a very big fish in a tiny pond with NI/Sco/Wales a la Giggs, Best etc but one can see that he had the desire to try to make it with the better team - the team that had a chance of succeeding.
That he didn't was probably more down to the managers at that time, I certainly think he had the talent to succeed with England at international level, but I think he should be happier that he gave it a try rather than opt for personal successes with much lesser teams.

This is (slightly) off the original topic though and isn't wholly relevant to the individual sport of swimming. The point is, and this has been recognised, that because of ridiculous qualification rules (I could have been swimming for Scotland for the last 2.5 years if I'd continued) virtually anyone can come swim for Scotland (Wales; NI) if they find themselves below the mark for England.

Surely this isn't right?:confused:

[Bazza]

Originally posted by rogant stard


but I think he should be happier that he gave it a try rather than opt for personal successes with much lesser teams.

Surely this isn't right?:confused:

1. Surely that's what he has done by turning his back on England? You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

2. No it isn't (depending on who you ask), but there's nothing I can do about it - it's down to the SASA, WASA or whoever!

3. In the previous post, you suggested if I did swim for a n other country, I wouldn't feel as proud, or whatever. I can't answer this question, and possibly will never be able to, but maybe that's a price you pay to get on the international scene?

[rogant stard]

Who has turned his back on England?

[rogant stard]

Originally posted by bazzaroodoo


3. In the previous post, you suggested if I did swim for a n other country, I wouldn't feel as proud, or whatever. I can't answer this question, and possibly will never be able to, but maybe that's a price you pay to get on the international scene?

Not exactly, I was asking if you would feel that pride?
I know I wouldn't.
Just asking for others opinions.

[lane4]

The violent abusive thuggery that is the game of modern football has no place in any discussion on this website, even when the examples quoted are given with the best of intent.

Rogant Stard - please identify which meet(s) you would have swum for Scotland at in the last 2.5 years if you had continued to swim and chosen Scotland to swim for?

Rogant Stard - please remember those who helped put you where you are now! ;)

Nobody likes these mercenaries, not anyone I know anyway! Maybe they themselves do and the medal hungry morally weak powers that be? :confused:

Can't think of anything else to write just now. More later of course!

:D

[rogant stard]

Originally posted by lane4


Rogant Stard - please identify which meet(s) you would have swum for Scotland at in the last 2.5 years if you had continued to swim and chosen Scotland to swim for?

No need to do that mate, not saying I was the best swimmer but feel confident I could have transferred my England caps into Scottish ones if I'd chosen that route - unless the Scottish qualifications were harder than the English ones?!

Originally posted by lane4

Rogant Stard - please remember those who helped put you where you are now! ;)

I presume this is in reply to my comment about being a young coach? Guess you must have taken this comment the wrong way (as usual) but wasn't meaning to imply that I'd got to where I am without the help of others because we've all had help along the way haven't we?

[lane4]

Indeed but some seek help whereas on many occasions, others are given it ahead of those who seek it.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by rogant stard


Not exactly, I was asking if you would feel that pride?
I know I wouldn't.
Just asking for others opinions.

What's the difference?:confused:
I thought Matt Elliott was English (sorry Lane4!)

[rogant stard]

The difference is that I was looking for others opinions on the matter, putting across the way I would feel and seeing whether that corresponds with others feelings on this matter.

I think we're confusing each other with the football thing.
I was talking about Matt Le Tissier who plumped for England over lesser teams whereas I think you are talking about the English Matt Elliott who took the soft option when taking on Scottish 'nationality'.

But lane4 is right, let's leave soccer out of this!

[Chris]

OK. To get this back on topic, what do people think the qualifying requirements should be?

There was word a few years back that a UK-based diver that was reasonably good wanted to use a distant link with the Channel Islands to get a Commonwealth Games place. She had never been to the Islands, but apparently one of her close relatives (may have been a grandparent) lived on one of the islands.

Should she have been allowed to compete for us? I say no. Because of the complicated housing rulings over here, you have to either be born on the island or have been living on the island for a continuous period of 15 years (you are allowed to be off the island for up to 3 months in any one year) to be declared resident.

I've been here 21 years now, so I'm a resident in my own right (although I would also be resident because my mum was born here.)

Because of that, I feel that I would be entitled to compete for my Island.

However, I was born in Kettering, Northants all those years ago, and my Dad was born and raised in the UK, so I'm English - I actually consider myself to be of dual-nationality ;)

Now for many reasons Guernsey residency isn't an easy thing to come by, therefore our rules could be considered a little extreme, but it certainly clarifies the situation for everyone.

Would a similar system work in the UK, i.e. you can compete for the country of your mother or father, or alternatively if you've been living in a certain country for a period greater than 5 years continuously, you could swim for them.

Could be an option maybe ....

[crawler]

Keeping it relevant.

The trouble seems to generally be the residency criteria, if a stay of a period as little as 6 months is sufficient to qualify someone. Is this a common-place period for other countries i.e. England, Wales, NI or is it specific only to Scotland?

A longer period (I think 5 years) would at least show a degree of permanence and commitment on the part of the swimmer.

Do you think a national association would make such a blatantly ridiculous "easy" residence criteria of 6 months merely to get more success from mercenaries. If so, how can this be allowed- it must be approved by committee and I guess it's one of the things that stem from not really being interested in ASA or SASA(?) procedures. i.e. you would somehow need to propose an amendment to the rules.

This gets me more and more cross thinking about it - realistically if this was put to a vote the grassroot membership would turn it down flat.

We need to take on the regulators!

[lane4]

The 6 month thing in Scotland, was I think, just a historical rule book thing that nobody really noticed or cared about until some English folks started taking advantage of it in the past decade or so. I do know that some of the SASA authorities are very unhappy about Jonny Foreigners ringing up every few weeks asking if they can be in the Scottish team. This has caused them in recent months to scrap the 'grandparent' rule and (from after Manchester 2002) change the 6 month rule to one that means you have to have lived in Scotland for 3 out of the previous 5 years. This tightens it up a bit but I wondered why did they just not make it 5 out of 5? Then I realised that 3 out of 5 will still allow Jonny Foreign Student to come up here (and even take a year out during their degree) with the foresight that at some point down the line (e.g. next Commy Games) they will be able to claim Scottish eligibility.

[lane4]

What are the ASA's eligibility rules by the way? Does anyone know?

[Chris]

Originally posted by lane4
Then I realised that 3 out of 5 will still allow Jonny Foreign Student to come up here (and even take a year out during their degree) with the foresight that at some point down the line (e.g. next Commy Games) they will be able to claim Scottish eligibility.

Do you adopt the nationality of the university you're attending? As far as I'm aware that's not the case, so attending uni in Scotland would give you no right to represent Scotland at all.

Could be wrong though. In the eyes of the Income Tax people, I was still Guernsey-resident for the entire 3 years I was at University in Plymouth.

[crawler]

Sad to say I have my ASA rule book in my bag at work.
Rule 312.2 says "shall be an individual of British nationality and born in England, or born of English parents,or a naturalised British citizen".

Rule 312.4 says "a competitor wishing to change his national qualification from one national governing body to the ASA shall have lived continuously in England...for at least one year,unless both nat. gov. bodies agree to reduce or waive this period"

Blimey, even more generous, just turn up and swim if your own lot don't want you!

[crawler]

Chris presumably the attendance at Uni. in a country complies with the residence condition by virtue of the fact you are residing in that country whilst being edukated(sic) there.

[rogant stard]

Yes, even more clear then that the qualification rules should be looked at a bit closer and it's heartening to hear that SASA are actually doing something about it!

The thing with the ASA rules is that you aren't going to get a Scot/Welsh/NI swimmer deciding to opt for England because their path to international representation for the country is blocked by a host of other swimmers.

My only experience of a swimmer switching from Scotland to England (then I believe swapping back again) was when I competed for the same England Youth Squad I mentioned earlier.
There was one Scottish guy on the squad, won't name names again. Fair play to him I thought, he's decided to go with the better team. However the guy, complete with Scottish team kit bag and other kit(!) until he was told otherwise, went around being a complete &*$£ all weekend making derogatory comments etc and was clearly just there for the trip.
He never made it to senior standard for either country though - shame.

[Steve]

This is an interesting one - I seem to recall a case like this before the last CG's. Sion Brinn IIRC swam for Jamaica in '94, but switched nationalities to GB in between then and '98 - however even though he had swum for GB in the intervening years, the commonwealth games council of England refused to let him swim in Kuala Lumpur, even though the ASA had picked him, because he had previously competed at that level for a different country. I'm not sure whether he appealed and got to swim however.

But it raises an interesting point - its all very well talking about Scottish swimming's qualification processes, but what is the policy of the Scottish COmmonwealth Games council? DO they have residency etc as qualifications - and they could theoretically overrule the SASA if they had different rules...

[Bazza]

Originally posted by lane4
This has caused them in recent months to scrap the 'grandparent' rule and (from after Manchester 2002) change the 6 month rule to one that means you have to have lived in Scotland for 3 out of the previous 5 years. This tightens it up a bit but I wondered why did they just not make it 5 out of 5? Then I realised that 3 out of 5 will still allow Jonny Foreign Student to come up here (and even take a year out during their degree) with the foresight that at some point down the line (e.g. next Commy Games) they will be able to claim Scottish eligibility.

I mentioned this in the previous thread (very notorious - I think you know the one I mean!;) ). 6 months is just plain ridiculous! How does living in a country for 6 months make you eligible to swim for a country? I qualify to swim for England and Scotland, but in theory with rules like this I could have spent 6 months of my year out living with my uncle in order to gatecrash the French team (assuming they also have this rule, and ignoring the fact that France are a strong nation anyway). It's a matter of principle, surely?
Still, as you say, 3 months out of 5 would allow anyone to take a sandwich degree course (which a very high percentage of 18-19 year olds go on to do nowadays, and qualify to swim for Scotland or Wales or whoever). Cynical I know, but I could suggest the reason Scottish and Welsh swimming are growing stronger by the day has something to do with these rules. Maybe it's true that the governing bodies want these rules so they can 'poach' decent/fringe swimmers from stronger rival nations (in this case England). :(
And to respond to Aussiebabe's post in a similar thread, what's the difference between offering your services and being approached? If you're asked, it simply means the governing body are on the lookout for these swimmers, and attempting to poach them, possibly before they realise they might one day be good enough to swim for their 'home' nation. I think this is worse in some ways!

[lane4]

Originally posted by bazzaroodoo

Still, as you say, 3 months out of 5

I said 3 YEARS out of 5 not 3 months

[lane4]

Originally posted by Steve Buckley
I'm not sure whether he appealed and got to swim however.

No he never got to go to the Games in 98 for either country - if my memory serves me correctly?

[lane4]

Originally posted by rogant stard
The thing with the ASA rules is that you aren't going to get a Scot/Welsh/NI swimmer deciding to opt for England because their path to international representation for the country is blocked by a host of other swimmers.


Not many people blocking the route for Edmond, Smith and Sheppard. Alas, they retain their pride in their country regardless fo where they live.

[lane4]

Originally posted by Steve Buckley
Sion Brinn IIRC swam for Jamaica in '94, but switched nationalities to GB in between then and '98 -

Sion always had a British passport

[lane4]

Originally posted by crawler

Rule 312.4 says "a competitor wishing to change his national qualification from one national governing body to the ASA shall have lived continuously in England...for at least one year,unless both nat. gov. bodies agree to reduce or waive this period"


So it would be pretty simple for some 'not quite good enough' Yanks and Aussies to come over here and swim for England just like those 'not quite good enough' English come up to Scotland to gain international representation and funding? :mad:

[Bazza]

Originally posted by lane4


I said 3 YEARS out of 5 not 3 months

:o I meant three years!:rolleyes:

[Bazza]

Originally posted by lane4


Not many people blocking the route for Edmond, Smith and Sheppard. Alas, they retain their pride in their country regardless fo where they live.

These aren't really the kind of swimmers we're talking about. They're genuinely world class. We're talking about the other end of the spectrum.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by lane4


So it would be pretty simple for some 'not quite good enough' Yanks and Aussies to come over here and swim for England just like those 'not quite good enough' English come up to Scotland to gain international representation and funding? :mad:

Apparently so...
Now, where did I put my Australian phone book...