Eric Moussambani

[dave1986l]

He deserved a mention :D

For those who are unsure of who he is

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[Spidey]

I mean, if you think how many swimmers there are in the world. Who can claim to have made it to the Olympics, let alone to have been noticed there, won a heat and got one of the biggest cheers - quite a unique guy.

[icelolly]

i think this guy was awesome. ok ok i know the purists will say he shouldnt have been there but this is the olympics. Every dog has his day and that was his. he was still faster than me !

ice

[lane4]

That swim was one of the funniest things ever, I have rarely laughed so much as I did during those two minutes in Sydney.

[swimash]

That swim was one of the funniest things ever, I have rarely laughed so much as I did during those two minutes in Sydney.

A bit harsh i feel!

[ruthcp]

Yes I can well imagine those two sad types that commentate on swimming having a few things to say about Eric. :rolleyes:
It was the Olympics, and Eric was (probably is) the best Ecuatorial Guinea had, so deserved his place without a doubt. If the 'purists' don't like this, they need not watch, and wait for swimmers whom they consider more worthy of them!

[Linny]

Yes I can well imagine those two sad types that commentate on swimming having a few things to say about Eric. :rolleyes:
It was the Olympics, and Eric was (probably is) the best Ecuatorial Guinea had, so deserved his place without a doubt. If the 'purists' don't like this, they need not watch, and wait for swimmers whom they consider more worthy of them! That French pair remind me of Stuart Hall watching the penguins on Jeux sans Frontiers!

IIRC I think Adrian Moorhouse did the BBC commentary and he was a little more restrained with occasional tittering and a very British embarrassed "Oh this shouldn't really be allowed."
I have rarely laughed so much as I did during those two minutes in Sydney.What a sad and unhappy life you must lead.

[NotVeryFast]

It was the Olympics, and Eric was (probably is) the best Ecuatorial Guinea had, so deserved his place without a doubt.You'd think they could have arranged some swimming lessons for him, though, before he set off, just to bring him up to the standard of a mediocre 12 year old perhaps.

Still, I'm sure it's much better to have people like Eric taking part than someone like Mark Foster whose dreadfully slow 22.49 50m freestyle wasn't good enough to get him to the Olympics.

[ruthcp]

You'd think they could have arranged some swimming lessons for him, though, before he set off, just to bring him up to the standard of a mediocre 12 year old perhaps.

Still, I'm sure it's much better to have people like Eric taking part than someone like Mark Foster whose dreadfully slow 22.49 50m freestyle wasn't good enough to get him to the Olympics.

Ecuatorial Guniea is a tiny, very poor country, further decimated by a brutal regime until recently (before anyone starts, I've been there) - I doubt they had the money let alone the resources. If Mark didn't make the grade, it certainly wasn't due to lack of either the above. :rolleyes:

[Dreama]

Mark didn't make the effort, Eric did

[NotVeryFast]

Mark didn't make the effort, Eric did
Eric only learned to swim 8 months before the Olympics, so I'm not sure how his effort exceeded that of even an average club swimmer in this country.

[ruthcp]

Eric only learned to swim 8 months before the Olympics, so I'm not sure how his effort exceeded that of even an average club swimmer in this country.

That may be the case, but it is totally irrelevant though, in the context of his country.
He was the best in EG and therefore he swam. :)

[Linny]

That may be the case, but it is totally irrelevant though, in the context of his country.
He was the best in EG and therefore he swam. :)It was completely relevant to Dreama's comment though.

Eric was probably the best in his country at 1500 free too and 200 fly and everything, maybe diving aswell but this doesn't mean that he should have been competing in the Olympic Games in these events. If the best person in every country swam it surely would be silly.

And there is a basic flaw in your argument; lest we not forget, in the context of his country, Mark Foster was the best too!

[ruthcp]

It was completely relevant to Dreama's comment though.

Eric was probably the best in his country at 1500 free too and 200 fly and everything, maybe diving aswell but this doesn't mean that he should have been competing in the Olympic Games in these events. If the best person in every country swam it surely would be silly.

And before anyone else points out the flaw in your argument, lest we not forget, in the context of his country, Mark Foster was the best too!

mmmm...I see your point but he couldn't have competed in all the events you mention, just as Mark couldn't have either - generally people are picked (I thought) according to their ability for a particular event, so Hackett for 1500m free, Thorpe 200m free, Piersol 200m back, etc. Eric's best was presumably the 100m, and he was picked for that.
I agree with what Dreama said 100% and I don't think I said or meant her point was irrelevant!
Mark may indeed have been the best, but he failed to meet the criteria set for qualification in this country, and thus did not go.
Can you point out the flaw in my argument please?

[Bully]

Lowering the qualifying time only lowers the standard, it is a sham to allow such poor quality competitors to compete against the best the world has to produce at that time. Just because he came from some little country that probably 99% of people couldn't even find on an atlas is a sham. But it was funny, while being embarrassing at the same time.

[ruthcp]

Lowering the qualifying time only lowers the standard, it is a sham to allow such poor quality competitors to compete against the best the world has to produce at that time. Just because he came from some little country that probably 99% of people couldn't even find on an atlas is a sham. But it was funny, while being embarrassing at the same time.

Couldn't disagree with you more on this but that's what makes life interesting.
I am glad that these countries get a chance too, otherwise it would hardly be a 'global' type event. As I said before, don't like it, don't watch it, and save yourself for the 'real' swimming, while the likes of me can enjoy the whole lot! :)

[NotVeryFast]

Can you point out the flaw in my argument please?
The flaw is that your argument is he deserved to be there because he met the criteria to be allowed to compete. Clearly he did meet the criteria, otherwise he wouldn't have been there, so it's not a very interesting discussion to debate whether he met the criteria or not, and IMO it has no relevance to whether he deserved to be there or not.

My argument is that the criteria that were used, i.e. for swimmers from his country basically no qualification criteria at all, are wrong. Mark Foster met the Olympic qualifying standard, Eric didn't, but the criteria are removed for swimmers from some countries. This is what allowed a chap to swim at the Olympics purely by virtue of having decided 8 months earlier that he quite liked swimming. It clearly isn't the case that it's not possible for people from Eric's country to become better swimmers than he was, because he got his time down to below 60 seconds in the next 4 years.

I must just be missing some crucial point, but his presence there doesn't evoke any positive emotions in me at all, there's no massive effort to conquer adversity, no year after year of sweat and tears, no he's just a bloke who spent 8 months doing a bit of swimming.

Personally I don't like the fact that people represent countries at the Olympics, I'd rather it were just a competition between the best individuals in the world. The current system hugely disadvantages people who come from strong countries such as the USA, there must be many cases where someone would have won a bronze medal had they been allowed to compete, but couldn't because they were 3rd best in the USA. Please don't reply that the people who are 3rd best in the USA don't deserve to be allowed to compete because they haven't met the criteria, the point of interest is what the criteria ought to be, not what they are.

[Bully]

I watch the Olympics because I want to see who is the best around at the time, and who performs the best on the day. If you want representation of every country in the world, then spread sport to them countries not invite them along so they can go back home and tell everyone "if I can make the Olympics then so can you, It's easy all you have to do is have a passport and a pulse!!!"

[ruthcp]

The flaw is that your argument is he deserved to be there because he met the criteria to be allowed to compete. Clearly he did meet the criteria, otherwise he wouldn't have been there, so it's not a very interesting discussion to debate whether he met the criteria or not, and IMO it has no relevance to whether he deserved to be there or not.


I take it from this that what you are saying is that the flaw in my argument is that there isn't one! :king:

[icelolly]

purley playing devils advocate here as i am not sure what the right answer is on this one

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/low/olympics2000/martial_arts/946593.stm

so if we rule out poorer countries then what happens to above.??

eric showed that with funding and training he could make huge improvement in his times, funding and training he couldnt get in his own country and he would not have got if he hadnt swam in the olympics in the first place!

hmm still undecided here

but i like to watch the also rans / no hopers in the olympics

ice

[ruthcp]

Eric didn't, but the criteria are removed for swimmers from some countries. This is what allowed a chap to swim at the Olympics purely by virtue of having decided 8 months earlier that he quite liked swimming. It clearly isn't the case that it's not possible for people from Eric's country to become better swimmers than he was, because he got his time down to below 60 seconds in the next 4 years.


Indeed he did, because having been to the Olympics he gained notoriety and trained elsewhere - there were (and I believe still aren't) any 50m pools in EG at the time.
The criteria set differs for countries with less facilities surely - I don't think that's harsh - if I want to see the best and only the best in the world swim, I have that choice many times over - to me the Olympics represents a chance of seeing more than just the same best swimmers, and I for one am grateful for that.

[Bully]

if I want to see the best and only the best in the world swim, I have that choice many times over

That's the problem if they let sub standard competitors compete at the Olympics other than through achieving qualifying times, anyone with a sad face and begging bowl can compete, that's just a sham. I'm telling my son to stop training for the 2016 Olympics, but to save up and immigrate to somewhere that nobody's heard of!!!

[swimash]

My personal opinion is that the system is right, every country should be given the right to have someone represent then, whatever their ability!
I mean come on if the smaller countries had to get the same qualifying times as the bigger countrys then they wouldnt be competing, which then would the small countrys be allowed to enter the paralympics because after all they would be at a disadvantage of facilities!
Well thats my random theory!

[Bully]

My personal opinion is that the system is right, every country should be given the right to have someone represent then, whatever their ability!
I mean come on if the smaller countries had to get the same qualifying times as the bigger countrys then they wouldnt be competing, which then would the small countrys be allowed to enter the paralympics because after all they would be at a disadvantage of facilities!
Well thats my random theory!

It a valid point, but I think common sense also needs to prevail, they can't just be any standard regardless of where they come from, if you really want to see competitors from small country's then investment is the answer, not charity, although with some of these corrupt governments the athletes probably won't see a penny of it.

[johnhy]

That's the problem if they let sub standard competitors compete at the Olympics other than through achieving qualifying times...

That's just the point of the Olympics - De Coubertin's message had nothing to do with winning!!! Are there not double standards here as we are quite happy to see some plucky Brit ranked 974th in the world enter Wimbledon on a wild card.

[Bully]

That's just the point of the Olympics - De Coubertin's message had nothing to do with winning!!! Are there not double standards here as we are quite happy to see some plucky Brit ranked 974th in the world enter Wimbledon on a wild card.

Are you seriously comparing Wimbledon with the Olympics, open your eyes and let the light in!!!

[ruthcp]

I'm telling my son to stop training for the 2016 Olympics, but to save up and immigrate to somewhere that nobody's heard of!!!

You would not be the first or last to do this, and if you believe that's the only way he'll get there perhaps you should! :cry:

My personal opinion is that the system is right, every country should be given the right to have someone represent then, whatever their ability!
I mean come on if the smaller countries had to get the same qualifying times as the bigger countrys then they wouldnt be competing, which then would the small countrys be allowed to enter the paralympics because after all they would be at a disadvantage of facilities!
Well thats my random theory!

Yep, this is what I think too swimash, so that makes two for your 'random theory'! :)

That's just the point of the Olympics - De Coubertin's message had nothing to do with winning!!! Are there not double standards here as we are quite happy to see some plucky Brit ranked 974th in the world enter Wimbledon on a wild card.

I agree with you too johnhy (I do love this multiquote thing Boss!!) - a good point well made. :king:

[Spidey]

Lowering the qualifying time only lowers the standard, it is a sham to allow such poor quality competitors to compete against the best the world has to produce at that time. Just because he came from some little country that probably 99% of people couldn't even find on an atlas is a sham.

The qualifying time is not globally lowered here, just for the nations such as Erics. The Americans don't know much outside their own country, does that eliminate the rest of the world from the Olympics in their eyes? It certainly does in "World" Series Base ball.

But it was funny, while being embarrassing at the same time.
Who remembers Eddie the Eagle, any one remember who won gold in his event (without looking it up?)
Tim Henman - any one remember who won at Wimbledon in the oh so many quarter finals he made? (Go on say it, "Just about everybody else").

[Woodward]

I do not think Eric should have been allowed to compete in Sydney. But that doesn't mean I don't think that smaller nations trying to develop their sports programmes should be held to the same qualifying standards.

People mistakenly believe that the Olympics are to bring together the best athletes in the world. That's not the complete picture of the intent/mission of the Olympic Games. It is but one of several aims of the event. Another goal of the Olympics is to be a convocation with a truly international composition in addition to promoting the development of sports globally. So in order to reconcile these goals they allow a maximum of two entrants within certain performance parameters for most countries. They make exceptions for small or poor countries in order to promote the development of the sport and to keep all the sports truly international. Imagine if Table Tennis only permitted the best athletes to compete. There would only be competitors from three or four countries.

But I do understand the concerns raised about instances such as Eric. That is going too far. Eric should not have been at the olympics.

If they want to relax the Q standards a bit to bring more countries into the fold that's great but within reason. For instance 54 seconds for the men in the sprint free. I don't see any reason that a 53 second 100 freestyler from Estonia or Uruguay shouldn't be allowed to compete if they are their respective countries best swimmer relative to world performances in their chosen events. In other words, the best Estonian breaststroker and the best Uruguayan IMer were further away from the global standard in their event than their best freestyler.

The IOC can still keep the number of athletes to a manageable size by limiting the number of these bonus entries per country in all sports. They can say to a country like Equitorial Guinea ... "we have given you three entries into these three sports" OR they can inform that "we cannot grant an entry into any sport because none of your athletes were able to meet even the relaxed qualifying standards put in place for small/developing countries."

The Americans don't know much outside their own country, does that eliminate the rest of the world from the Olympics in their eyes? It certainly does in "World" Series Base ball.


A bit off topic but I have to straighten you out on this remark. The "World Series" was christened such back in 1903 when the champions of two competing leagues ... the National League and the American League ... played each other for the first time. The World newspaper promoted and ultimately financed the event ... hence the name.

Also, countries do not compete in the World Series. Professional club franchises do. The Major Leagues in America also attract the world's best players be they from Japan, Korea, Mexico, the Dominican Republic, etc. So possibly the notion of World Series is not that far off after all. Since the world's highest paid and most talented players compete in MLB.

It is true that the Geography IQ of Americans (generally speaking) is abysmal but the example you chose to use has flaws.

[selkie]

If memory serves me, the FINA/Olympic developing nations clause is one male and one female swimmer per country if none of their athletes meet time standards. (Digs around a bit and comes up with)

http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:F5LvqsNt_GYJ:www.fina.org/specialevents/beijing2008/pdf/qualifyingprocedures_sw.pdf+swimming+olympic+quali fying+standards&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

"NF/NOCs without qualified athletes – NFs/NOCs may enter swimmers regardless of time standard as follows:

- having no swimmer qualified: one (1) man and one (1) woman
- having one swimmer qualified: one (1) swimmer of the other sex

provided that:

- the swimmer(s) participated in the 12th FINA World Championships – Melbourne 2007

-FINA will decide which swimmers will be invited to take part at the Olympic Games based on their performance."

So we're not talking a huge number of swimmers under that standard. And this Games' developing nations swimmers can be the next Games' medalists and stars. When you see the flags of Tunisia, Zimbabwe, Trinidad & Tobago, and Argentina go up the poles in Athens, I feel like there's something to be said for keeping the meet open for developing programs.

[icelolly]

we are all digging at eric here but what about the other two chaps who appeared to not know that start procudure?? where were they from???

ice

[GettingFaster]

That was a deliberate protest, if I remember correctly.

[OutsideBurner]

I think a few pic's of the man himself are required:

http://blog.nagadoudi.info/images/eric.jpg

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/05/eric_wideweb__430x301.jpg

http://www.olympic-museum.de/home/moussambani.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/meucerebrodoi/imgs/ericmoussambani1.jpg

http://www.sportec.es/index/gifs/fotosmes/sydney7.jpg

[Bully]

You would not be the first or last to do this, and if you believe that's the only way he'll get there perhaps you should! :cry:

I'm not that sad, but more importantly nore is Bully Jnr, law of averages says he won't make it, but if he does it will be through the front door and not the back!!!

[ruthcp]

I'm not that sad, but more importantly nore is Bully Jnr, law of averages says he won't make it, but if he does it will be through the front door and not the back!!!

Good! :) It is after all a big enough front door so that even Eric was able to go through it! :king:

[Spidey]

A bit off topic but I have to straighten you out on this remark. The "World Series" was christened such back in 1903 when the champions of two competing leagues ... the National League and the American League ... played each other for the first time. The World newspaper promoted and ultimately financed the event ... hence the name.
I am sure that other countries tried to join, but were turned away, should the name be dropped as new sponsors names could be used instead?

It is true that the Geography IQ of Americans (generally speaking) is abysmal but the example you chose to use has flaws.
Is that the new American spelling of floors? (Spidey prepares to be nuked (and not by the new club member))

[Woodward]

I am sure that other countries tried to join, but were turned away, should the name be dropped as new sponsors names could be used instead?
Countries don't play in Major League Baseball. They are sports franchises ... think Man U or Chelsea. The name has become synonymous with the sport beyond that sponsorship which is long dead. They're not going to change a name that's been designated to a major sporting event for over 100 years. Besides the world's best players do play in the Major Leagues whether they be from Latin Countries, Japan, or America.


Is that the new American spelling of floors? (Spidey prepares to be nuked (and not by the new club member))
Not unless you're from Brooklyn, NY and you're spelling phonetically.

[Bully]

Is this similar to the Ryder Cup, which was origininally UK & N Ireland, but because we could never win, they changed it to Europe and now the USA can't win, but's it's still kept it's original name, or does this not have any similarity at all, and if not, it's just good to remember how well we did against the yanks???

[NotVeryFast]

Is this similar to the Ryder Cup, which was origininally UK & N Ireland, but because we could never win, they changed it to Europe
Along similar lines, though the opposite type of change, there's talk of Scotland competing separately at the 2012 Olympics:
http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/71963.html
That's one way for GB to get more swimmers to the Olympics, we'd have 4 per event then instead of 2, though of course it would also make it much easier for Scottish swimmers to get a place on the team compared to everyone else in GB. Our relay teams would be weakened, though, and as we have very few swimmers who have a chance of a medal in individual events, it would probably only ever reduce our medal haul if we competed separately.