Backstroke Turns - Tips Required!

[emt1103]

OK, 28 years ago I'd had at least 11 years' experience in the "old fashioned" stay-on-your-back turns, and rarely (as far as I can remember) missed one.
Having been out of the water since then, the advent of the "new-fangled" turn-onto-your-front type passed me by, and honestly ... I didn't care. That was until a few weeks ago ......

Just before Christmas a friend of a friend persuaded me to go along to a masters club, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. So much so, it's quite possible that I may enter for the Midlands Masters. However, can I get the hang of these backstroke turns? Can I b**ger! I can only put it down to "old habits die hard". It's so embarrassing. The only good thing about this is that it's taken my attention away from worrying about my wobbly bits!

Any tips would be most welcome.

[Ivor]

I was in exactly the same position as you - the advent of the new turn completely passed me by too.

The bad news is I found there was no alternative to rebuilding from the ground up. My coach at the time and I went through each stage of the turn and I learnt it from new.

To fast-track my progression I always practised doing backstroke turns instead of free turns during training until I was happy with that part of the process.

The good news is it really didn't take very long to get used to doing things the new way.

Best of luck.

[Speedy Gonzalez]

I found the same thing (breast stroke had also been changed) on my return. Get someone to show you how it is done then it is just a matter of practise. It is not all that different to a freestyle turn.

Good luck

[DRB]

Couple of options - do the old style turn for the time being - its still legal and a necessity for IM's

Think about the turn logically - its just a freestyle turn, but in reverse order.

Freestyle - swim quickly towards wall as if the wall is not there, at a given distance (depending on your speed, height etc) put your head down and allow the water pressure on the neck and back flip you over, plant feet on the wall push off and twist onto front.

Backstroke - swim quickly towards wall as if the wall is not there, at a given distance (depending on your speed, height etc) turn onto your front as part of your normal rotation put your head down and allow the water pressure on the neck and back flip you over, plant feet on the wall push off - you just don't have to twist.

A good starting point might be to have a peak at where you would normally turn on freestyle (some marker on the side of the pool) and then look for it as you swim backstroke. The difference in speed would account for the time it takes you to get onto your front.

[NotVeryFast]

You're not really in any different a situation to people who had to switch over when the rule change first happened. It changed when I was at Uni so I started doing the new turn in my final year, taking over a second off my 50 back time.

The key thing is to work out how many strokes you have to do from your head passing under the flags before you need to roll over into the turn. For me, annoyingly, it's more than 3 but less than 4, so what I do is slow my stroke down when I reach the flags so that 3 strokes becomes exactly right.

You can easily work out how many strokes it takes for you by trying an increasing number of strokes from the flags each time till you end up in the right position.

The other key point is to avoid losing speed as you roll over. It's very easy to become so focused on the turn that you almost come to a standstill, whereas you really want to carry your full swimming speed through the roll and into the single freestyle arm pull that you're allowed as you initiate the turn. One way to practice maintaining your speed while rolling is to do it while swimming normally, so do a few strokes of backstroke, roll onto your front and do a few strokes of freestyle, roll onto your back and do some more backstroke etc, so you're switching a few times each length. Try to make the switchover completely seamless, just an extension of the normal roll in each stroke. Keep yourself straight and streamlined in the water at all times to avoid losing speed as you roll.

[Spidey]

I still do both type of turns and suggest that you just keep trying the "new" style in training untill you feel comfortable. No one is going to think anything unkind if you do not do the "new" style turns in a competition.

[Linny]

I struggled to start with too; I found that I was starting to twist automatically out of habit and then having to untwist which was pretty damn awkward.

I like them now and the best solution really is to practice, practice, practice.

I still struggle to stay in a streamline underwater for any distance out of a turn on my back through. Water always goes up my nose so instead I just pop up at about the flags. It doesn't happen when I haven't turned (ie I can streamline on my back off a push for 15m or so and it doesn't happen on my front from a push or a tumble. Any tips to fix this very welcome. :)

[Spidey]

Water always goes up my nose so instead I just pop up at about the flags. It doesn't happen when I haven't turned (ie I can streamline on my back off a push for 15m or so and it doesn't happen on my front from a push or a tumble. Any tips to fix this very welcome. :)

I have this trouble, you should have seen the reaction from the swimmers in te heats after me in my lasy competition (July - Eastbourne) when I was in lane 6 and did what I thought was a good turn and head towards the bottom of the pool instead of towards the other end. Tips please too.

[emt1103]

Many, many thanks to you all. I feel so much better knowing I'm not the only one to struggle on this.

I'm hoping to particularly concentrate on this over the next week or two, and shall bear in mind all of the advice you have given.

[rossman]

I am not sure why nobody has suggested this before but it works for me.

Count strokes from the flags to the wall as in a normal backstroke finish (for me it's 5), then when trying a turn -2 (hence 3 for me), twist over onto your front and that should be enough for one continuous arm pull to take you close enough to be able to tuck your head in and complete what should basically be a forward roll.

I was the same as you as I was used to doing touch turns but always struggled with them in races even as a senior swimmer. I have found this much easier and seeing the wall while on my front makes adjustments to hit the wall correctly easy as well, just ball up tighter or looser while doing the forward roll.

Please let us know how you have got on and which method you find best.

[Bully]

And if you want to be really clever, when on the back if the right arm exits the water roll to the left, and if the left arm exits roll to the right, this way you will use the momentum of the arm and its weight to help initiate the roll.

[DodgyDunk]

I still struggle to stay in a streamline underwater for any distance out of a turn on my back through. Water always goes up my nose so instead I just pop up at about the flags. It doesn't happen when I haven't turned (ie I can streamline on my back off a push for 15m or so and it doesn't happen on my front from a push or a tumble. Any tips to fix this very welcome. :)

I remember reading about Kirsty Coventry, the Auburn uni backstroke/IM swimmer (probably in a US magazine) - she has a technique where she scrunches up her face so that her top lip seals her nostrils, allowing her head to be tilted further back on her backstroke streamline. Luckily, no one can see your face underwater. Tip - don't forget to stop contorting when you finish the breakout!

[My colleagues are looking at me strangely now, as I've just been trying this technique at my desk - thank <insert deity here> I'm not a backstroker...]

[Stevie_k]

Well only swimming since since oct last year, ive never known of these touch turns that you speak. Only roll on to your front and roll over and push off on your back. Im suprised that you good swimmers find that a difficult adjustment to mate cos it sure seems simple to me and im useless. My mate does this wierd backstroke turn, and im assuming this is what you are all reffering too. I got him to break it down but its a propper complicated wierd procedure, the new type just HAS to be easier.

The tuff turn for me is backstroke to breast stroke. At helsinki i was convinced they were doing a tumble turn, it really looked like they were but they were not.

I would love some tips on how to go from back to breast pleeeeaaasseee :)

[Bully]

I would love some tips on how to go from back to breast pleeeeaaasseee :)

1. Stay on your back, touch the wall with your hand, and then roll on to your front putting your feet on the wall, push the arms back in front for streamlining and push off on your front.

or

2. Touch the wall on your back, bring your feet/legs up so you are in effect tumbling backwards, plant the feet on the wall and then push the arms back in front for streamlining and push off on your front.

My son maintains number 2 is the quickest for him as do several of our IMers, but I will add he is the worlds worst breaststroker and backstroker so his views don't count for much, and you might have to many old war wounds to do this?

[Linny]

I remember reading about Kirsty Coventry, the Auburn uni backstroke/IM swimmer (probably in a US magazine) - she has a technique where she scrunches up her face so that her top lip seals her nostrils, allowing her head to be tilted further back on her backstroke streamline. Luckily, no one can see your face underwater. Tip - don't forget to stop contorting when you finish the breakout!

[My colleagues are looking at me strangely now, as I've just been trying this technique at my desk - thank <INSERT here deity>I'm not a backstroker...]It's no good, I can't make a seal no matter how hard I scrunch.:cry:

Was fun trying though. :)

[400IMer]

Try getting both timed. Time from when your head passes the flags on the way in and on the way out. And also try rotation speed where on the tumble the clock starts on the last hand entry until the feet touch the wall or touch and twist is timed from hand touch to feet touch.

Basically remember 2 things about your turn - Fast approach & tuck up tight.

I also agree with the previous advice about practicing both and trying to improve the tumble turn as this is the one being performed at the top level - theoretically faster, but see what works for you.

[emt1103]

Well, here's an update on the backstroke turns practice .......

Average outcomes: 50% reasonable, 30% required a few metres of "gliding" to get anywhere near the end to tumble, 10% had to be abandoned due to total confusion and 10% resulted in near concussion.

I do, however, now know what the problem is and it's simple - I used to take 5 strokes from the flag to hitting the wall with my hand, but that was when I was younger/faster/fitter/etc and more consistent with technique and speed. Now, it's sometimes 5 strokes, but it could also be 4 or 6, depending on how tired I am and how fast I'm going, and this makes it difficult to work out when I should roll over. I suppose it's better to have to glide in, rather than roll over and find my nose pressed against the end of the pool!

The water-up-the-nose thing has never been a problem for me, and is something I obviously deal with without thinking. I seem to automatically alter the amount of air I blow through my nose according to the force of water trying to get up it! So, if I am tumbling forward at speed, and the water is really wanting to get up my nose, I blow out a burst of air to stop it. Once I push off, there's no real force and so the air blown out is more of a trickle. I have seen a couple of people wearing nose clips in training. It's not something I could do, but an option for some maybe? I certainly can't do the scrunching up/gurning thing - as my mum used to warn me, the wind might change and I'll stay like that .......

Anyway, one major step forward this week has been diving in from a starting block - at least that was OK.

[NotVeryFast]

I suppose it's better to have to glide in, rather than roll over and find my nose pressed against the end of the pool!
In a race, you'll be disqualified if you glide on your front. Once you roll over, you can do a single arm pull into the tumble turn. While on your front you must either be pulling with an arm or in the process of tumbling, any pause and you'll be disqualified.

I agree about it taking different numbers of strokes depending how tired you are. This is why I have a fixed stroke rate that I always use for the last 5m so that I know it will be 3 strokes then roll over into the turn.

[Spidey]

At one competition where I did all the events - in fact that could most of them, I did not practice the backstroke turn in the warm up. So length one, go past the flags, 1, 2, 3,4 hit the wall - second length - past the flags, 1, 2, 3, turn - only to see another 5 meters or so to go - I had started counting from the false start rope. :mad: I just swam to the end and climbed out. Lesson learned.

[emt1103]

I agree about it taking different numbers of strokes depending how tired you are. This is why I have a fixed stroke rate that I always use for the last 5m so that I know it will be 3 strokes then roll over into the turn.

Not a bad idea - I was having a go at doing just that at this morning's training session and it certainly helped. No major disasters for once.

In a race, you'll be disqualified if you glide on your front. Once you roll over, you can do a single arm pull into the tumble turn. While on your front you must either be pulling with an arm or in the process of tumbling, any pause and you'll be disqualified.

Yes, this is the next thing to worry about. Trying not to do anything other than rolling, pulling and tumbling - and hopefully in that order!