Arkady and Bill on same wavelength? Craig and Bill not?

[lane4]

On SwimNews Craig Lord reported that Russian backstroker Arkady Vyatchinin said of the world championships in Melbourne: It's not the main (meeting) of the year for me, I'm preparing for the summer.

Craig's thoughts on Arkady's comments were:What summer Arkady? There is no summer this year. melbourne is the summer. Paris (lovely as it is) pales by comparison.

Then today on the British Swimming site, Bill Sweetenham is quoted saying about the worlds:
The event should be part of a swimmer's preparation for the Beijing Olympics. In my view the summer events the British swimmer will attend this year will be more important as it gives a clearer indication of where they are exactly a year out from Beijing.Looks like Craig's next article could be an interesting one!

[NotVeryFast]

Hmm, I'm not convinced by Bill's argument here, it smacks of getting the excuses ready for a poor GB performance at Worlds. Last year he was quite happy to release a document that went on about how great we were because we'd done so well at various events. But now he's telling us that all those events didn't matter.

Well, okay, so we can go along with this point of view for now, and if the swimmers don't deliver at Worlds because they trained straight through it, then let's suppose we're happy with that because we're buying into the long term vision of Beijing success. But if Bill is going to take that approach, he'd better be very confident of huge success in Beijing, because if we don't achieve something special there, we'll surely have to conclude that everything that was sacrificed on the way wasn't worth it.

Incidentally, I would argue that the most important meet for an individual swimmer is the one they can achieve success at. Suppose you can't realistically hope to finish higher than 6th at the Olympics, but if you fully taper for Europeans you have a good chance of a medal. I think it's arguably better for that swimmer to focus on the European event and win their medal there, rather than sacrifice that so they can finish 6th rather than 7th at the Olympics.

[Pink Paraffin]

Olympic finalist as opposed to European medallist? Interesting debate...

[Bazza]

Also interesting when you consider that the British team performed better times-wise in Melbourne last year than in Budapest.

[Linny]

I don't understand; surely there is no suggestion that British swimmers are not going to prepare fully for the World Championships? If they are fully prepared for March, I don't understand how the Summer competitions are going to be a better guage of how they will perform in 2008 unless they are also fully prepared for the Summer meets too and yet we have been told that it isn't possible to fully prepare for one meet without jeopardising performances at subsequent meets because isn't that why British swimmers have to train through everything?

Another thing I have been wondering about, I mean I only know what I've read but it seems that it is possible to get a swimmer's taper very wrong because everyone reacts in different ways, so if noone ever gets the chance to practise this important aspect of preparation how are they going to get it right when it matters if all that matters is the Olympics?

[Linny]

Olympic finalist as opposed to European medallist? Interesting debate...And yet you have no view on it?

[Pink Paraffin]

And yet you have no view on it?

Oh I do. Olympic Final every time. But I don't see why an Olympic Finalist should not be a European medallist in most cases :)

[NotVeryFast]

Olympic Final every time. But I don't see why an Olympic Finalist should not be a European medallist in most cases :)
That isn't quite the trade-off I was considering. Here are the two options I had in mind:

Option A : Train straight through Euros, reducing your performance at Euros, in order to perform better at Olympics. Outcome - 4th at Euros, 6th at Olympics.

Option B : Taper for Euros, slightly reducing your performance at the Olympics compared to training straight through. Outcome - 3rd at Euros, 7th at Olympics.

If it were me, I'd rather get the medal at Euros, regarding the difference between 6th and 7th at Olympics as unimportant.

[RaoulD]

I don't think it is a case of getting excuses in early but more a case of preventing expectations for Beijing being increased or decreased (as the case may be) as a result of the performances at the World Championships. I think Bill has not forgotten that the 2003 World Championships were good for British Swimming and this probably led to over-confidence going into the Olympics in 2004. This does not mean to say that the World Championships will not be taken seriously since they provide an excellent opportunity for British swimmers to compete against their potential rivals for medals next year.

[Linny]

I agree with you RaoulD but I had to go back and reread the British Swimming article several times because it confused me. Every time I read it, it all made sense and I thought I understood what Bill was saying, until I got to the bit lane4 highlighted, then I had to go back to the beginning again to see if I had misunderstood what had gone previously.

The only way I can make the article make sense is if I assume that "events" means training, camps and preparation rather than meets (even though the word "event" is used to mean meet in the sentence before). If one makes this assumption then Craig Lord's article isn't at odds with what Bill is quoted as saying on the British Swimming website and the article is consistent with what has been said previously.

Also, if this is the case I read the remainder of the article in a different context and now feel completely confident that Bill is not suggesting that swimmers are training through. Phew....

I am wondering though why when it was so wrong to pre-select for Athens using the 2003 World Champs why it is right to pre-select for Beijing using the 2007s. Mark Foster would have been in would he not unless he would have been excluded due to some other factor in the selection policy. I therefore think that it is only right that the selection policy for 2008 should be formally published before some of our swimmers are pre-selected rather than after.

[RaoulD]

I am wondering though why when it was so wrong to pre-select for Sydney using the 2003 World Champs why it is right to pre-select for Beijing using the 2007s. Mark Foster would have been in would he not unless he would have been excluded due to some other factor in the selection policy. I therefore think that it is only right that the selection policy for 2008 should be formally published before some of our swimmers are pre-selected rather than after.

I think the pressure that was placed upon swimmers to do qualifying times at designated trials resulted in the exclusion of swimmers who would have benefitted from pre-selection and a training programme geared towards the Athens Games. It is clear that rather than make those who achieve a top 4 placing at the 2007 Worlds prove themselves again in a rather artifical time trial, they now have a great opportunity to do well at the Worlds and not have to worry about interrupting preparation in the 12 months before Beijing. Furthermore, had the same approach been adopted in 2003-2004 then Mark Foster would have gone to Athens and we would not have had the side show which developed over the selection policy.

I think the problem with the selection process for Athens was that it placed too much emphasis on the attainment of a time that was expected from a swimmer in peak competitive condition and this caused many swimmers to have to adjust training programmes to taper for the trials as if they were the Games themselves.

Although it is now more than 20 years since I trained at this level, I remember how disruptive a mid-season taper is to a training programme. For a weeks' competition you can effectively lose 4 weeks or more intensive training.

[lane4]

The only way I can make the article make sense is if I assume that "events" means training, camps and preparation rather than meets (even though the word "event" is used to mean meet in the sentence before). If one makes this assumption then Craig Lord's article isn't at odds with what Bill is quoted as saying on the British Swimming website and the article is consistent with what has been said previously. I agree it would make more sense with that assumption but I don't think that is what is intended at all. By summer events Bill is definitely referring to the ASA's, the Paris Meet, the World Unis and the Japan Meet, not camps or preparation.

[Linny]

I think the problem with the selection process for Athens was that it placed too much emphasis on the attainment of a time that was expected from a swimmer in peak competitive condition and this caused many swimmers to have to adjust training programmes to taper for the trials as if they were the Games themselves.

Although it is now more than 20 years since I trained at this level, I remember how disruptive a mid-season taper is to a training programme. For a weeks' competition you can effectively lose 4 weeks or more intensive training.I commented on this (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=28739&postcount=12) on here at the time and I believe you are right.

I agree it would make more sense with that assumption but I don't think that is what is intended at all. By summer events Bill is definitely referring to the ASA's, the Paris Meet, the World Unis and the Japan Meet, not camps or preparation.If you are right then I don't understand what he is saying at all. :cry:

[Pink Paraffin]

If you are right then I don't understand what he is saying at all. :cry:

Maybe he's thinking of changing the dates of the ASA Nationals in the summer, just to keep us on our toes...

[lane4]

I think the problem with the selection process for Athens was that it placed too much emphasis on the attainment of a time that was expected from a swimmer in peak competitive condition and this caused many swimmers to have to adjust training programmes to taper for the trials as if they were the Games themselves.

Although it is now more than 20 years since I trained at this level, I remember how disruptive a mid-season taper is to a training programme. For a weeks' competition you can effectively lose 4 weeks or more intensive training.
The same thing didn't seem to bother the Americans and Australians too much. The very best swimmers just get on and deal with it. It is quite clearly possible to fully taper twice in a year as 100's of swimmers throughout the world keep proving every year. To say an adjustment to the training programme to get ready for the Trials caused less than optimal performance at the Games is nothing short of a poor excuse for poor coaching/training or a poor mental approach to the tasks at hand. One must not presume that the intensive weeks of training that might be lost due to tapering are guaranteed to produce additional performance enhancing effects in the longer term. Those additional weeks may just as easily lead to no extra improvement, or perhaps even a regression if the balance is wrong. In America almost everyone tapers fully for a college or other major meet in the spring, and then again in the summer for whatever the main meet is then. Whilst obviously not every swimmer gets it right every time, there are always plenty who do swim well at both and improve from one to the other. Australia had mid-season Olympic Trials. America had Trials about 4 weeks out from the Games, Most people over here would say that was suicide and it can't be done (i.e. taper fully for a trials and then within a month swim as well again or better at the Games), even though the evidence is to the contrary.

[joncole78]

In America almost everyone tapers fully for a college or other major meet in the spring, and then again in the summer for whatever the main meet is then.

our basic times to taper for age-group/seniors are beginning of the year for short course championships, and end of the summer for long course championships.. depending on the level of swimmer (state meet qualifier, sectionals, etc)

how is england's system set up as far as short/long course?

[RaoulD]

The same thing didn't seem to bother the Americans and Australians too much. The very best swimmers just get on and deal with it. It is quite clearly possible to fully taper twice in a year as 100's of swimmers throughout the world keep proving every year. To say an adjustment to the training programme to get ready for the Trials caused less than optimal performance at the Games is nothing short of a poor excuse for poor coaching/training or a poor mental approach to the tasks at hand. One must not presume that the intensive weeks of training that might be lost due to tapering are guaranteed to produce additional performance enhancing effects in the longer term. Those additional weeks may just as easily lead to no extra improvement, or perhaps even a regression if the balance is wrong. In America almost everyone tapers fully for a college or other major meet in the spring, and then again in the summer for whatever the main meet is then. Whilst obviously not every swimmer gets it right every time, there are always plenty who do swim well at both and improve from one to the other. Australia had mid-season Olympic Trials. America had Trials about 4 weeks out from the Games, Most people over here would say that was suicide and it can't be done (i.e. taper fully for a trials and then within a month swim as well again or better at the Games), even though the evidence is to the contrary.

I entirely agree that you should be able to taper for major meets whenever they occur and that this should be built into the training programme. Indeed, I used to do it. However you do have to factor into the planning the fact that the training programme will be disrupted. Our National Squad used to train on programmes designed by the same coaches who coached the US team and would include tapered sessions for both the National Championships and the trials for the Commonwealth, Olympic, Asian and Pan-Pacific competitions (as the case may be). The training programmes were personalised to meet the characteristics and needs of each individual swimmer and so the extent of the taper varied.

It is also worth remembering that the selection criteria used in the US and Australian trials is often focused upon the placing at the trials themselves rather than use a time standard designed by reference to world ranking. By making the trials performance the main criteria for selection, you avoid the need for a long build up to the team selection so that the bulk of the training programme is largely complete by the time the trials and the subsequent competition take place. You also minimise the risk that a swimmer who performs well at the trials will lose form (for whatever reason) in the period between the trials and the games themselves.

[Pink Paraffin]

Most people over here would say that was suicide and it can't be done (i.e. taper fully for a trials and then within a month swim as well again or better at the Games), even though the evidence is to the contrary.

Agreed. We (Great Britain) have never taken this 'risk'. When I suggested it at a recent British Swimming conference as an option for an Olympic Trials, most people looked at me like I had two heads. The bottom line is, a lot of our British coaches would not know how to do it, so best to stay with a full 15week or so cycle into the major games then

I have no idea physiologically or philosophically why British swimmers cannot be fully shaved and tapered for the World Championships, again for the summer meets (and they'd better swim well at Paris after all of the date changing nonsense), again for the Olympic Trials (which I believe we are now having) and then again for the Olympic Games - AND get persistently faster at each stage in this progression

Lane 4 is correct. Clever and methodical coaches with focused athletes will do this. Slapdash coaches and/or poorly focused athletes will not

[Linny]

I am sure that there are good and valid reasons for all the different approaches to qualification. Maybe they all work but the thing that really perplexes me is why it is different every time for us. How is anyone supposed to practice and get good at something if it is different every time? I mean the whole point of having someone with experience at the top is to use their experience to best effect. Any old idiot can try something new every time and afterwards decide that it didn't work very well and that they want to do something else.The bottom line is, a lot of our British coaches would not know how to do it, so best to stay with a full 15week or so cycle into the major games thenHey, well perhaps we can try that next time. Of course our coaches still won't know how to do it because they won't have done it before.Lane 4 is correct. Clever and methodical coaches with focused athletes will do this. Slapdash coaches and/or poorly focused athletes will notThis is true of very many things, but again I wonder how a coach can be methodical when all around him/her is changing.Maybe he's thinking of changing the dates of the ASA Nationals in the summer, just to keep us on our toes...Now you're just being silly.

[Bully]

I would fall into the confused catagory, I have been taught that it is not necessary for age group swimmers to taper, but it has been mentioned on here that they should, who am I to believe, who is right and who is wrong???

[Steve]

Well, okay, so we can go along with this point of view for now, and if the swimmers don't deliver at Worlds because they trained straight through it...snip

I queried that press release and the official line is "They're all on a taper."

So that settles it!

[NotVeryFast]

I queried that press release and the official line is "They're all on a taper."

So that settles it!
Yes, it was very confusingly written, so I'd asked someone else afterwards who had assured me everyone would be doing a full taper for Worlds. So I think what Bill is talking about is the need to train through some competitions between Beijing and Worlds, it's just very confusing because before where the article talks about that, he has been saying many times how Worlds aren't the important thing, just a stepping stone, Worlds are just part of the preparation for Beijing, not an end in themselves etc.

There isn't actually a link to the story in this thread yet, so to save people searching for it if they come across this thread in the future, here it is:
http://www.britishswimming.org/vsite/vcontent/content/news/0,10869,5026-150315-167531-28293-267797-news-item,00.html