The European Junior Team

[irish]

Here is the team.....Sophie ALLEN,Charlotte BROADBENT,Christopher FOX,Zoe HESTER,Robyn MATTHEWS,Max PARTRIDGE,Emma SMITHURST,Rebecca TURNER,Alex WARREN,Hannah COLLINS,Ellen GANDY,Robert HOLDERNESS,Sasha MATTHEWS,Daniel SCOTT,Peter THOMPSON,Grant TURNER,Ryan BENNETT,James DOOLAN,Jonathan GREG,Marco LOUGHRAN,Xavier MOHAMMED,Elizabeth SIMMONDS,Jenna TURNER and Christopher WALKER-HEBBORN...well done to all the above

[Gina]

Well done to Jenna my training partner. Great freestyle swims at nationals!

[Goldfish]

Well done to the Yorkshire Swimmers; Rebecca Turner, Max Partridge, Charlotte Broadbent and Peter Thompson (Middlesbrough is in Yorkshire as far I am concerned).

[Linny]

I had expected to see Adam Brown and Lauren Collins on the list?

I hadn't expected to see one or two that are but delighted they are going anyway!

Well done everyone.

[FinswimmerJohn]

Middlesbrough certainly IS in Yorkshire!.. south of the River Tees.
QED

[lane4]

I had expected to see Adam Brown and Lauren Collins on the list?
Yes indeed, what happened to them?

[Taxiandbank]

No Stuart Houston either.

[lane4]

No Stuart Houston either.
Yeah but Stuart didn't make qualifying times nor was he the fastest fly swimmer for the relay. Brown did make a time, in fact he was the fastest 100 freestyler at the Trials so should have been a lock for the relay too. His 200 free time should also have got him a relay berth. Collins was outside her best but was also a strong contender for the 4x100 free team. Did they forget to put their availability forms in or something?

[Katie]

There are quite a few people I am surprised not to see on that list... as I mentioned before there are people who got the QTs in the heat, missed it in the semi, and then some people got it in the junior final (but still didn't beat the other swimmer's time in the heat) and are going. Is it just me or is it a much smaller team than last time?

[swimbar]

Here is the team.....Sophie ALLEN,Charlotte BROADBENT,Christopher FOX,Zoe HESTER,Robyn MATTHEWS,Max PARTRIDGE,Emma SMITHURST,Rebecca TURNER,Alex WARREN,Hannah COLLINS,Ellen GANDY,Robert HOLDERNESS,Sasha MATTHEWS,Daniel SCOTT,Peter THOMPSON,Grant TURNER,Ryan BENNETT,James DOOLAN,Jonathan GREG,Marco LOUGHRAN,Xavier MOHAMMED,Elizabeth SIMMONDS,Jenna TURNER and Christopher WALKER-HEBBORN...well done to all the above

Is it?
Suggest you wait for the official press release.

[lane4]

Is it just me or is it a much smaller team than last time? I think it is smaller, which is a littel bit strange given that this year LEN have increased the number of swimmers a country can enter per event from 2 to 4. However, the morning finals issue at the Trials has without doubt cost this team a significant number of high quality swimmers that would normally have made it.

[Katie]

I've been told Lauren Collins is going by one of the other members of the team... so bit confused :)

[irish]

I've been told Lauren Collins is going by one of the other members of the team... so bit confused :)

Marco also told me that Adam Brown is in team so ....I only gave the names on the list I :confused: received

[lane4]

Marco also told me that Adam Brown is in team so ....I only gave the names on the list I :confused: received Perhaps you had the wrong list?

[irish]

Perhaps you had the wrong list?

It was the one sent to him naming him and the list I posted in good faith

[hailstone]

In your rush to post list it should have read Hannah Askew then Lauren Collins
not Hannah Collins, I am told British swimming error left Adam Brown off the list but that he is going. It will be intersting to see who gets what events
no girl breaststroker Alex only there for relays? Lauren only qualified for 200 free Xavier also in but what will he swim?

[Katie]

Silly about the girl breaststrokers, especially as 2 girls got the 200 QT in the heats! I know what the selection policy says, but it does seem a shame to leave genuine medal hopes behind, especially when they did in fact get QTs at some point in the meet!

[Taxiandbank]

In your rush to post list it should have read Hannah Askew then Lauren Collins
not Hannah Collins, I am told British swimming error left Adam Brown off the list but that he is going.

I expect an apology is in the post. Oh Yeah!
Adam took out his disappointment and frustration by going in for an extra session on his own on his day off.

[Another SwimMum]

However, the morning finals issue at the Trials has without doubt cost this team a significant number of high quality swimmers that would normally have made it.

I think that statement is a cop out! Everyone should have been aware of the selection criteria for the EJC’s. It’s a tough world out there; just look at the World Champ results. It’s brilliant that those that made the grade did so by stepping up to the challenge of morning semi’s and finals. Are you saying that those swimmers selected are not ‘high quality’? Maybe this country should look at why the US and Australia get such good results. Could it be something to do with having the right positive attitude?

Congratulations to all selected. You will all do us proud.

[Linny]

Maybe this country should look at why the US and Australia get such good results. Could it be something to do with having the right positive attitude? Perhaps it helps your positive attitude if you have the opportunity to swim fast when it matters for you.

I think it is a shame that some of our best junior swimmers are missing out on going, the meet didn't have to be morning finals, I really don't know what the benefit was supposed to be for these swimmers. Maybe it will make them tougher, you're right, it is a tough world out there, but maybe it will be just one more unnecessary knock back that will diminish that postive attitude that everyone is trying to instill.

[lane4]

I think that statement is a cop out! You're entitled to your opinion. Everyone should have been aware of the selection criteria for the EJC’s. Correct. And everyone was! Are you saying that those swimmers selected are not ‘high quality’? If you bothered to understand what I wrote it is perfectly clear that I am not saying that at all. On the contrary, and to repeat for effect, I am saying some high quality swimmers MISSED out on the team because of the morning finals issue. There are also other high quality swimmers who have made the team in one event or a relay, but not in as many individual events as we might have expected.Maybe this country should look at why the US and Australia get such good results. Could it be something to do with having the right positive attitude? Maybe, but it could also be to do with a whole host of other things, for example, more numbers, more pools, better pools, better access to pools, more professional coaches, being a coach considered a high status job in society, a structured school and college based swimming programme, university scholarships, swimming as a way of life from an early age (beach nearby, surfing, backyard pools etc force early learning of the sport), success in any sport being important to your school (not just the football or rugby team), a greater desire to win etc etc.

It is worth pointing out that America are not bothering practicing morning finals in any meets, not even their Olympic Trials. And the ONLY meet they swim semi-finals is their Olympic Trials. Oh and they swim relays at virtually EVERY meet.

And finally, a couple of interesting facts about the 2006 European Junior Champs - no English male swimmer made the final of an individual event. A freak occurance, or does that tell us something about England? And only one offshore boy made the final of individual event. A somewhat poor return from the apparent cream of the crop future Olympic medal winners don't you think?[/quote]

Congratulations to all selected. You will all do us proud. I am sure they will too.

[Another SwimMum]

You're entitled to your opinion.

Thank you :)

If you bothered to understand what I wrote

I thought I had. Intonation is a wonderful thing! :confused:


it is perfectly clear that I am not saying that at all. On the contrary, and to repeat for effect, I am saying some high quality swimmers MISSED out on the team because of the morning finals issue.

And what exactly is the morning finals issue? Why are we (as a nation) such graceful losers? There's always some excuse or reason (IMHO)


it could also be to do with a whole host of other things, for example, more numbers, more pools, better pools, better access to pools, more professional coaches, being a coach considered a high status job in society, a structured school and college based swimming programme, university scholarships, swimming as a way of life from an early age (beach nearby, surfing, backyard pools etc force early learning of the sport), success in any sport being important to your school (not just the football or rugby team), a greater desire to win etc etc..


Agreed.


It is worth pointing out that America are not bothering practicing morning finals in any meets, not even their Olympic Trials. And the ONLY meet they swim semi-finals is their Olympic Trials. Oh and they swim relays at virtually EVERY meet.

Maybe they don't see it as an issue! Makes sense. Why worry about something is there's nothing to worry about! Mind over matter.

And finally, a couple of interesting facts about the 2006 European Junior Champs - no English male swimmer made the final of an individual event. A freak occurance, or does that tell us something about England? And only one offshore boy made the final of individual event. A somewhat poor return from the apparent cream of the crop future Olympic medal winners don't you think?

Not quite sure what you are insinuating here.... Do we enter a GB team or English, Welsh and Scottish teams? :banghead: Maybe there were extenuating circumstances, not morning finals though, something else - slow pool????? :zip:

As for the Offshore boys, don't they have to meet certain criteria to acheive a place? Just like the selection criteria for the 'Trials'. From what I have read; isn't this a way of providing exactly the facilities you have mentioned above? I do have to say that I know very little about the Offshore scheme so can't really comment.

Anyone else care to join in the debate?

[Bazza]

Maybe they don't see it as an issue! Makes sense. Why worry about something is there's nothing to worry about! Mind over matter.


I will, because I'm confused by the above statement - you appear to support the US stance of not changing any preparation for Beijing despite the prospect of morning finals, but also support British Swimming running trials with morning finals? :confused:

[hailstone]

A number of girls who taken to a camp in nov/dec and on to queensland, swam in there open meet with fantastic results medals PBs [ article on british site ] Charlotte Barnes 2.33 200 breast Alex Hooper 1.5 100 back Fern Davies Cloee Ross Clooe Hart Emma Bird
never got past the heats in Manchester The boys ranking list shows Stephen Beckerleg top 200 free no Johnathan Quinn lot of time and money has been invested in these swimmers and others who have been on world class programes 3/4yrs all for this type of event when 4 places are available and there left at home.
With the youth champs taking place 7 days later the times these swimmers post may prove the Manchester exercise wrong

[Another SwimMum]

I will, because I'm confused by the above statement - you appear to support the US stance of not changing any preparation for Beijing despite the prospect of morning finals, but also support British Swimming running trials with morning finals? :confused:

Exactly. You've just summed it up. I beleive that the US aren't worrying about when the finals are and we (UK) are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Why make a big deal out of what times the finals are. Just compete and get on with it. I would hazard a guess that the US will do well on the medal front in Beijing.......

[Another SwimMum]

The boys ranking list shows Stephen Beckerleg top 200 free no Johnathan Quinn lot of time and money has been invested in these swimmers and others who have been on world class programes 3/4yrs all for this type of event when 4 places are available and there left at home.
With the youth champs taking place 7 days later the times these swimmers post may prove the Manchester exercise wrong

From the BS national rankings database some of those swimmers (that have been heavily invested in) haven't PB's since August last year. Why is that?

Why was Manchester an excercise? This is how it will be at 2008 Olympics or will we still be using the excuse that the timing of the finals is why we didn't do so well! Didn't a number of EJC competitors last year come home and perform better at the Nationals one week later?

[selkie]

Maybe this country should look at why the US and Australia get such good results. Could it be something to do with having the right positive attitude?



With the Americans, I'm not sure if it's so much a conventional positive attitude, but rather a resilliency to bounce back when things start coming unravelled. I can't find the article on their site anymore, but can remember one of the national team members telling the story of a trip to Siberia (okay, I think it was St. Petersberg) for the World University Games or Goodwill Games or something where thing after thing kept going horribly wrong- food poisoning getting half the team, and fumes from pool leading to respiratory problems getting the other half, flight problems, luggage problems, you name it. It made a trip on the SS. Minnow sound good.

She said they'd seen the movie The Lion King on the flight over, and the way that they ended up coping with misstep after misstep ended up being song lyrics, and they'd end up chanting or singing "Hakuna Matata" every time they got on the bus as they tried to get over the hypothermia from the practice pool. It turned into their daily joke and way of coping with the problems.

As for American facilities, there are some very, very nice pools here, but very nice isn't really the norm. Until they go off to univeristy, most swimmers spend their time in a pretty average 25 yard or 25 meter tank with limited access to a long course facility. The average swimmer in Australia or Germany has access to a far nice pool than the average swimmer in America. Trust me, just about any of the Americans can tell you about competing in some pretty ugly and scary pools.

[NotVeryFast]

This is how it will be at 2008 Olympics or will we still be using the excuse that the timing of the finals is why we didn't do so well!
The difference is that in Beijing, everyone taking part will have to swim morning finals, so the playing field will be level, whereas at the moment we're disadvantaging ourselves compared to everyone else by making it harder for our swimmers to achieve QTs.

You mentioned that it's only mind over matter - how far do you think this can be taken to swim faster? If you told your child to swim 100m free in 45 seconds, saying it's only mind over matter, do you think they'd be able to do it? Clearly even with the best will in the world there is a limit to how fast an individual can swim relative to their level of ability.

[Woodward]

Maybe this country should look at why the US and Australia get such good results.

The US doesn't have the same imposed obstacles that the UK places on it's swimmers. It's one thing to have other competitors in your country stand in your way and quite another to have your country's sporting body put those obstacles there.

The US always aims to bring their best swimmers and typically will send as many swimmers as they can under FINA rules to major meets. Qualifying is usually simple ... finish in the top two ... or in the case of qualifying for Worlds last year ... over the course of two meets: Nationals and Pan Pacs. The qualifying was simple. The two swimmers which swam the fastest times would go to the World Championships. It didn't matter when they swam the time (Prelims, finals, whenever). Jessica Hardy gained a berth to Worlds in the 100 Breast at Pan Pacs with her time when she won the B Final. She was knocked out of the A final by Quann Jendrick and Kirk since only two per country were permitted to swim in finals.

Some always point out that the US can afford to do this because it's a large country with great depth in the sport. But it wouldn't matter. In other sports where the US is not competitive it's the same policy. It only matters if they're the best in America. It doesn't matter how they stack up globally. International Sporting bodies may impose standards but if an athlete is the best in America but only ranked #100 in the world the US will still try to send that athlete (think table tennis).


Could it be something to do with having the right positive attitude?
You say this but in the next breath you call British athletes "graceful losers." In fact I sense a general negative undertone towards British swimmers in most of your comments. At any rate I can guarantee you that many American swimmers and coaches would complain if there was a policy that prevents swimmers from going to a major meet because they swam a qualifying time in the prelims but not the finals.

The only reason the US isn't having morning finals at the Olympic trials is because the host venue (in Nebraska?!) will be unable to sell tickets and fill the stands in the morning!

[sub24]

Well an interesting debate...I like it. The strange thing about Beijing is the fact that it being such a high profile competition, won't the swimmers be fairly 'up' for it anyways? But Manchester was 'big' for EJC swimmers yet...

Having experienced the morning finals in Manchester now, it certainly will be an advantage to those that have 'done it'. More than one coach said "good morning" to me during the heats (think about it). I think some swimmers will get caught out in Beijing just like EJC swimmers got caught out.:banghead:

I would say that the chances of US Trials not selling out because they were swimming the finals in the morning would be pretty slim.:aarrgghh:

[Woodward]

As for American facilities, there are some very, very nice pools here, but very nice isn't really the norm. Until they go off to univeristy, most swimmers spend their time in a pretty average 25 yard or 25 meter tank with limited access to a long course facility.
Average is good though. Average works. Pools are pools and we have a big advantage because unless you live in the sticks you're near enough to a decent enough racing pool in most cases. "Nice" pools and long course facilities are useful but somewhat overrated. There are many more important correlating factors to achieving success in the sport.

[Woodward]

I would say that the chances of US Trials not selling out because they were swimming the finals in the morning would be pretty slim.:aarrgghh:

The organizers of the meet thought otherwise.

This is the venue. It seats over 18,000 though I'm not sure what it will seat with the temporary pool.

http://www.qwestcenteromaha.com/default.asp?lnopt=12&sn1opt=1&sn2opt=1&sn3opt=1&bldgopt=1&month=4&year=2007&newsID=0

[lane4]

From the BS national rankings database some of those swimmers (that have been heavily invested in) haven't PB's since August last year. Why is that? Who knows!? A whole range of possible reasons. Maybe they are training to make time drops in the summer not beforehand?

Why was Manchester an excercise? This is how it will be at 2008 Olympics or will we still be using the excuse that the timing of the finals is why we didn't do so well!
At the Nationals in Manchester, the finals started at 8am. In Beijing the finals will start at 10am. It's still the morning but I think it's different enough to be significant in performance terms. I haven't done a detailed examination of the swims in Manchester but I got the feeling that in very general terms the later your morning final was, the better your performance. I am still trying to find ANYONE who can explain to me why finals in Manchester commenced at 8am if we were doing it to practice for Beijing (10am start)? And likewise, why the ASA Nationals in summer 2008 are also slated to run with morning finals starting at 8am. Please can SOMEONE explain why it was (and is still being proposed as) 8am and not 6, 7, 9, 10 or 11am!?

[lane4]

Exactly. You've just summed it up. I beleive that the US aren't worrying about when the finals are and we (UK) are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Why make a big deal out of what times the finals are. Just compete and get on with it. I would hazard a guess that the US will do well on the medal front in Beijing.......
I don't think we are making any mountain out of it, we are just discussing it, analysing it, and looking for answers to some of the questions it raises. For example, why, if it's important to do morning finals to practice for Beijing, were the majority of swimmers who will make up our team for Beijing not given the chance to practice it? The nationals could have been held after the Worlds to allow the World team to come home from their morning heat / evening finals showdown in Melbourne to practice the reverse in Manchester. Instead the nationals were held at the same time as the Worlds, thereby preventing our best swimmers from gaining this (essential or irrelevant?) practice, and at the same time deflating the status and quality of the British National Championships. In addition, why were our morning finals at 8am when in Beijing they will start at 10am? What's the point trying to simulate Beijing if we are not simulating Beijing!? Will our swimmers now be even tougher because they started at 8am!? America might have to start worrying!

I agree that we should not worry about when the finals are in Beijing, we should just turn up and race. There is a real danger that some people will make too much of finals being held in the morning. However, what we do in Britain should have a logical rationale, and that is something which many people thought was missing in Manchester.

[hailstone]

On the EJC team list the only swimmer likely to make olympics next year is Lizzie the rest are all 2012 prospects as told by BS at last EJC meet in Majorca. some may prove him wrong. Lizzie was in OZ with the rest of the probable team. The Manchester meet was aimed at juniour qualifers.

[Linny]

The Manchester meet was aimed at juniour qualifers.For the vast majority of whom, morning finals must surely be completely irrelevant.

I'm not good with time zones and I did wonder if we were getting in some REALLY early practice for London (:angel:) but having checked, that would make it the early hours of the morning on the West Coast so I doubt it, unless of course we start at 6 or so. :D

[Graham Wardell]

A number of girls who taken to a camp in nov/dec and on to queensland, swam in there open meet with fantastic results medals PBs [ article on british site ] Charlotte Barnes 2.33 200 breast Alex Hooper 1.5 100 back Fern Davies Cloee Ross Clooe Hart Emma Bird
never got past the heats in Manchester The boys ranking list shows Stephen Beckerleg top 200 free no Johnathan Quinn lot of time and money has been invested in these swimmers and others who have been on world class programes 3/4yrs all for this type of event when 4 places are available and there left at home.
With the youth champs taking place 7 days later the times these swimmers post may prove the Manchester exercise wrong

You're confusing short term gain with long term athlete development. These swimmers may not have made the team this year because of physical maturation issues, or school issues, or a whole host of reasons. The investment in them as swimmers is not to be successful at Euro Youth, Euro Juniors but as a long term prospect. And the system cannot always be 100% successful. You will get kids who fall by the wayside, but you will also get others (Lizzie Simmonds, Fran Halsall, Jessica Dickons) who show the benefit of that investment by competing at this years World Champs.

Let's get things into perspective. Manchester was just another meet, and some of the kids swam well and as a result made the team. Others weren't quite at their best and didn't. But there will be other meets.

[Linny]

Here (http://www.britishswimming.org/vsite/vcontent/content/transnews/0,10869,5026-142440-19728-28293-271884-9137-5014-layout73-159656-news-item,00.html?ImgDisp=0) is the team.

The selection times were the same (well the way they were derived not the absolute values) so draw your own conclusions as to why the team is in British Swimming's words "smaller than in recent years."

I think it's great that there are three "lady" coaches named on the list.