Beijing QTs

[Bazza]

Was just having a browse at the qualifying times for Beijing (as laid down by FINA):

www.fina.org/events/OG/Beijing_2008/pdf/qualifyingprocedures_sw.pdf

Not surprisingly, they are pretty hard, but assuming we don't make it even harder on ourselves I feel we should be aiming to get 2 swimmers qualifying in each event. Although there is a year to go, looking at the current rankings this could be difficult:

Men
50 Fc - 0
100 Fc - 1
200 Fc - 4
400 Fc - 1
1500 Fc - 1
100 Bc - 2
200 Bc - 2
100 Br - 3
200 Br - 2
100 Fly - 0
200 Fly - 0
200 IM - 2
400 IM - 0

Women
50 Fc - 1
100 Fc - 1
200 Fc - 2
400 Fc - 2
800 Fc - 2
100 Bc - 1
200 Bc - 2
100 Br - 2
200 Br - 1
100 Fly - 0
200 Fly - 3
200 IM - 0
400 IM - 2

So on the mens side the back and breast look strong, but butterfly and IM look weak, and not much depth on freestyle (except 200 which bodes well for a relay team). The women are more consistent but again holes in butterfly and IM and only Fran Halsall in the sprint free.

[Gina]

We'll just have to wait until BS put out the British standards as I think they'll be a bit faster than FINAs. From what I've been seeing recently from Bill Sweetenham, he looks to be picking a smaller than normal team to go to Beijing so who knows what he'll come up with next.

[NotVeryFast]

If I recall correctly, the minutes in the other thread said swimmers will have to achieve the A times in the heats to qualify. The A times are roughly in line with last place in the final at the 2004 Olympics for the few events I checked, so that's a pretty tough qualifying requirement, and I agree with Gina, Bill said not too long ago that he was looking to take a small medal-focused team to Beijing, he said something about it not being the place to blood new talent or something like that.

[terminator]

Given the number crunching NVF has done that looks like a big squad of British swimmers. I would expect the BS qualifying times to be based on world top 6 or 8.... makes sense funding is based on success, success means medals. Why take a swimmer who wont make a final or even win a medal.


On a personal note i like the idea of a small focused squad but i would prefer to see a group of Talented youngsters either being selected to compete or to go on the pre-games holding camps and maybe even to the games its self for experience....even if they are not racing.

[Gina]

I just want to see the top swimmers given a chance to swim at the most important meet in swimming. Take the top 2 who make the A time and that is it. No fancy business please!

[NotVeryFast]

Given the number crunching NVF has done that looks like a big squad of British swimmers.
I think you mean the number crunching Bazza has done?

What I was saying is that I think the squad will be small, because achieving the A times in heats seems pretty tough to me. Bazza's figures are based on world rankings, i.e. the best swim each swimmer has done in the year, which is very different to having to do it in a specific race, especially in the heat as well as presumably the final, too.

[Steve]

I think you mean the number crunching Bazza has done?

What I was saying is that I think the squad will be small, because achieving the A times in heats seems pretty tough to me. Bazza's figures are based on world rankings, i.e. the best swim each swimmer has done in the year, which is very different to having to do it in a specific race, especially in the heat as well as presumably the final, too.
BUT, the trials will be evening heats morning finals, so that should help with fast heat swims.

[lane4]

My information was that the BOA and UK Sport are keen to send a large team to Beijing in readiness for a very large one 4 years later. By all accounts, the policy wil end up as FINA A time in the heats at the trials then place 1st or 2nd in the final.

[Linny]

That sounds reassuring.

[Pink Paraffin]

My information was that the BOA and UK Sport are keen to send a large team to Beijing in readiness for a very large one 4 years later. By all accounts, the policy wil end up as FINA A time in the heats at the trials then place 1st or 2nd in the final.

This is also how I understand current thinking - Draft 11 I believe!

[lane4]

This is also how I understand current thinking - Draft 11 I believe!
Now if only they would tell us the qualifying times to make the Olympic Trials we'd really be in luck!

[Another SwimMum]

Now if only they would tell us the qualifying times to make the Olympic Trials we'd really be in luck!

Excuse my ignorance, but when and where are the Olympic Trials being held?
Surely it would be better to take a larger team with B qualifiers too, so that we don't look as weak (as a Country/Team) as we currently are. The underdogs often perform very well when given the chance to show their talents and often aren't as pressurised as the top swimmers. It would be a good research/trial project. This (in my view) smacks of cost cutting once again. Why take such a small team? Bet other top teams don't behave in such a fashion! :banghead:

[Adamski]

On a personal note i like the idea of a small focused squad but i would prefer to see a group of Talented youngsters either being selected to compete or to go on the pre-games holding camps and maybe even to the games its self for experience....even if they are not racing.


I'm totally with you on this. Not only that, the youngsters are more likely to pull out something special. The women's 400IM British record set recently would have faired particularly well in the World Championships!! Apologies to the swimmer who set it - think I can remember who but not totally sure!!

[NotVeryFast]

By all accounts, the policy wil end up as FINA A time in the heats at the trials then place 1st or 2nd in the final.
I'm trying to work out how this will work - will only swimmers achieving the A time in the heat be allowed to take part in the final?

If "yes", there are going to be some very empty finals, and if there are only one or two swimmers in the final, can they cruise along to guaranteed selection regardless of time in the final?

If "no", what happens in the following situation:
Heat - X comes 1st, Y comes 2nd, X makes the A time, Y doesn't.
Final - Y comes 1st making the A time, X comes 2nd outside the A time.

From what you said above, in this scenario, X would be selected, as they made the A time in the heat and placed 1st or 2nd in the final. Y would not be selected.

Or what about:
Heat - X comes 1st, Y comes 2nd, Z comes 3rd, X makes the A time, Y and Z don't.
Final - Y comes 1st, Z 2nd, X 3rd, all making the A time.
Result - nobody is selected.

[Taxiandbank]

I'm totally with you on this. Not only that, the youngsters are more likely to pull out something special. The women's 400IM British record set recently would have faired particularly well in the World Championships!! Apologies to the swimmer who set it - think I can remember who but not totally sure!!

Hannah Miley

[ringer]

Excuse my ignorance, but when and where are the Olympic Trials being held?


This is very confusing. The ASA 2007-2012 Calendar says that the Olympic Trials will be at Sheffield 31 March - 6 April 2008....
....but also says that the European LC Championships at Eindhoven are to take place over precisely the same period, a dramatic clash of dates.
The BS Technical Swimming Committee Minutes of their meeting on 2 May say that the British LC Championships are to be combined with the Olympic Trials at Sheffield 31 March - 6 April 2008.

There are other contributors to the forums who will know for sure, I'm sure.

[lane4]

I'm trying to work out how this will work - will only swimmers achieving the A time in the heat be allowed to take part in the final?

If "yes", there are going to be some very empty finals, and if there are only one or two swimmers in the final, can they cruise along to guaranteed selection regardless of time in the final?

If "no", what happens in the following situation:
Heat - X comes 1st, Y comes 2nd, X makes the A time, Y doesn't.
Final - Y comes 1st making the A time, X comes 2nd outside the A time.

From what you said above, in this scenario, X would be selected, as they made the A time in the heat and placed 1st or 2nd in the final. Y would not be selected.

Or what about:
Heat - X comes 1st, Y comes 2nd, Z comes 3rd, X makes the A time, Y and Z don't.
Final - Y comes 1st, Z 2nd, X 3rd, all making the A time.
Result - nobody is selected.

Correct on all accounts, that is what will happen. However, I think there may be some sort of get out clause whereby the Head Coach or NPD can add swimmers to fill up places not taken to cover situations such as when a swimmer just misses the time in the heat but swims a world record or world ranked number one time when winning the final. Nothing definite though, we'll all have to wait and see when the final policy is issued what the exact situation is.

[lane4]

Excuse my ignorance, but when and where are the Olympic Trials being held? 31 March to 6 April 2008, Ponds Forge, Sheffield.

Surely it would be better to take a larger team with B qualifiers too, so that we don't look as weak (as a Country/Team) as we currently are. I'm pretty sure we're going to end up with a fairly large team, and most places filled.

The underdogs often perform very well when given the chance to show their talents and often aren't as pressurised as the top swimmers. What evidence do you have for this? Can you provide examples? A lot of people would argue that the more underdogs you have on your team the worse your whole team does (e.g. GB?) whereas the more high flying gold medal favourites you have the better your whole team does (e.g. USA) as the high flyers pull the rest of the team up, whereas a high percentage of underdogs drags the rest of the team down.

This (in my view) smacks of cost cutting once again. Why take such a small team? Bet other top teams don't behave in such a fashion! We are not cost cutting, we're going to take whatever size of team that makes the selection criteria, be that 4 or 40. Likelihood is that it will be a lot nearer 40 than 4. Other top teams will have varying methods and team sizes, South Africa have already picked their team, Netherlands and Japan traditionally go very small, USA and Australia will be big, as will China for obvious reasons.

[lane4]

This is very confusing. The ASA 2007-2012 Calendar says that the Olympic Trials will be at Sheffield 31 March - 6 April 2008....
....but also says that the European LC Championships at Eindhoven are to take place over precisely the same period, a dramatic clash of dates.
The BS Technical Swimming Committee Minutes of their meeting on 2 May say that the British LC Championships are to be combined with the Olympic Trials at Sheffield 31 March - 6 April 2008.

There are other contributors to the forums who will know for sure, I'm sure.
The 2008 European Championships in Eindhoven will take place from 13-24 March with the swimming events being in the last week of that period. Thus there is no clash with our Olympic Trials meaning that we can enter relays without any worries of tapering or not tapering.

http://www.ecswimming2008.nl/

[selkie]

If anyone's curious about how the Americans are running their Olympian picking, selection criteria is available here towards the bottom of the page:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=248&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

31 pages of clearly spelled out directions up to and including athlete expectations and proper Olympic meet conduct guidelines that were published and distributed in February, and are consistent with every other selestion process used for an American Olympic team pretty much since the Olympics went from three to two swimmers per event.

[ringer]

The 2008 European Championships in Eindhoven will take place from 13-24 March with the swimming events being in the last week of that period. Thus there is no clash with our Olympic Trials meaning that we can enter relays without any worries of tapering or not tapering.

http://www.ecswimming2008.nl/

No clash then...thats a relief ...but you'd have hoped the ASA calendar might have reflected the true position also and included the British LC Event!!!!!
lane 4, your mastery of the Dutch language is very impressive;)

[Another SwimMum]

lane 4, your mastery of the Dutch language is very impressive;)

Especially when there is an English version!!!! :wave:

[Steve]

Surely it would be better to take a larger team with B qualifiers too, so that we don't look as weak (as a Country/Team) as we currently are.

Just to build on what Lane4 has said, it isn't quiote as simple as that - the FINA A and B qualifying times relate also to the number of swimmers a country wants to enter.

If a country enters two swimmers in an event then both must make the A time.
If a country enters a single swimmer then they have to make only the B time.

Hence adopting the B QT wouldn't necessarily result in a larger team. Of course this is separate from any national association qualifying rules.

[Another SwimMum]

If anyone's curious about how the Americans are running their Olympian picking, selection criteria is available here towards the bottom of the page:

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=248&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

31 pages of clearly spelled out directions up to and including athlete expectations and proper Olympic meet conduct guidelines that were published and distributed in February, and are consistent with every other selestion process used for an American Olympic team pretty much since the Olympics went from three to two swimmers per event.

Wow. I'm impressed. An excelent doc. Clear and concise. Perhaps BS swimming will produce a similar doc.

Thanks for the links Lane4 and Selkie.