National Youth Championships Top Club

[Pink Paraffin]

So everyone, how should the system be operated to determine the Top Club Award at the National Youth Championships? :speechles

[Linny]

So everyone, how should the system be operated to determine the Top Club Award at the National Youth Championships? :speechlesI understand that common practice for this type of thing is to give the award to the team that has the best overall performance. This is usually determined by point scoring across the events taking place and at the end of the meet the points are tallied. There are usually rules in place to prohibit the inclusion of "ringers" and sometimes team events such as relays are given extra weighting. :)

I think it is really important for everyone involved to know the rules, how the points are allocated and how the points will be totalled before the meet because as my mum always told me "A good scorer always beats a good player".

is this a new award PP?

[Pink Paraffin]

No but the BSCTA have been asked to formulate a set of conditions, rules etc

What should be included? - Open debate

[Phil Tanner]

Right off the top of my head - points per finalist from 10 down to one.

Two separate competitions for conglomerates and stand-alone clubs.

[chris_lamb]

Two separate competitions for conglomerates and stand-alone clubs.

Should there also be seperate competitions for clubs from big places and small places? For clubs with a "monopoly" in the area and for where there is "competition"?

[Phil Tanner]

No, that would be daft and impossible to define anyway.

[Incisor]

Right off the top of my head - points per finalist from 10 down to one.

Two separate competitions for conglomerates and stand-alone clubs.


No good. I've seen clubs up in the top five because they have a single swimmer that is making finals and scoring points. It doesn't reflect on any depth within their club and in my opinion they wouldn't be worthy of a 'top club' nomination. Most qualifiers would be a fairer representation of a clubs strength and success, not most finalists.

[chris_lamb]

Most qualifiers would be a fairer representation of a clubs strength and success, not most finalists.

Just qualifiers doesn't seem a particularly good basis as it is the best club at the competition so performance must be taken into account. How about in addition to points for finalists, also having points for all those that beat the qualifying time in the heats?

[Pink Paraffin]

Right off the top of my head - points per finalist from 10 down to one.

Two separate competitions for conglomerates and stand-alone clubs.

What about Youth swimmers in Senior Finals?

[Pink Paraffin]

What about disability athletes?

[Silver Fox]

Whatever way they organise it...We all know who is going to win it....don't we ?

[sharkey]

Whatever way they organise it...We all know who is going to win it....don't we ?

I don't, do tell.

[Linny]

No but the BSCTA have been asked to formulate a set of conditions, rules etcWhy? What was wrong with how it was determined before?

If it was me, and it isn't, I would start at the beginning -

Why is there a Top Team award? What is it for? It should be this and only this that determines the criteria set.

Eg, if the Top Team award is to be used to publicise swimming to the wider public the criteria should be something along the lines of - the Team with the prettiest swimmers and the nicest tracksuits.

So what is the award actually for or have the BSCTA to decide that too?

[Barracuda]

I would agree with Linny's comments, in order to agree a criteria, surely we need to know the purpose.
If it is to establish who achieved the best by the number of qualifying swimmers, then that's simple and will always end up with the same result between 2 or 3 of our biggest clubs, if however, it is to establish who achieved best at the Youth's we could use an average performance system using pb's, this would then be proportional to achievers. A large club may have 30 swimmers attending Youth's, but if they only achieved 5 pb's between them I wouldn't consider that a major achievement, would you?

[ringer]

I understand that common practice for this type of thing is to give the award to the team that has the best overall performance. This is usually determined by point scoring across the events taking place and at the end of the meet the points are tallied. There are usually rules in place to prohibit the inclusion of "ringers" and sometimes team events such as relays are given extra weighting. :)



Linny
I can assure you that on this occasion I have no intention of competing this year at least :)
although the offspring will be there :fingers:

[lane4]

Surely the purpose is to determine the ranking of all clubs (not just the winner) based on all round performances of their swimmers at that meet.

The best and simplest way to do this in my opinion is to use some form of graded points structure for the top x swims in each event. My personal preference is the hy-tek standard points which grades down to 16th place with the top 3 positions being given a slightly higher weighting. Relay events then count double points.

I agree with the point made about top club results being skewed by having just 1 or 2 outstanding swimmers winning lots of points and noone else at the meet. I would therefore incorporate a minimum number of swimmers entered in the meet criteria in order to be able to score which I would probably be inclined to set at 4.

I would also exclude all foreign clubs or national teams from scoring towards the overall result and make it a British only thing. And I would score it in three ways: top girls club, top boys club, and top overall club.

[Pink Paraffin]

Thanks Lane 4 - a direct answer (and a good one) to a direct question

I throught the thread was just going to dwindle into pontification until you arrived :)

[Barracuda]

Thanks Lane 4 - a direct answer (and a good one) to a direct question

Don't worry, I'm sure no matter how it's done, you will be right in there somewhere.

[Linny]

Thanks Lane 4 - a direct answer (and a good one) to a direct question

I throught the thread was just going to dwindle into pontification until you arrived :)So is that what the award is for then?to determine the ranking of all clubs (not just the winner) based on all round performances of their swimmers at that meet.
Seems reasonable to me and if that is so then l would have thought lane4s suggestion was just fine although I don't understand how setting a minimum number of swimmers entered into the meet can prevent a skewing in favour of a Club with one or two great swimmers nor do I see why this is a particular problem if relays score double points which I think they should.

Anyway it doesn't help with your -

What about youth swimmers in senior finals?

nor your

What about disability athletes?

I don't think that the basic method of determining the top Club was ever really too difficult, it is the fine print (which I stand by what I said before should be published before) that is more problematic.

You can fight it out amongst yourselves, but hey thanks for asking! :zip:

[happydays]

I agree with the point made about top club results being skewed by having just 1 or 2 outstanding swimmers winning lots of points and noone else at the meet. I would therefore incorporate a minimum number of swimmers entered in the meet criteria in order to be able to score which I would probably be inclined to set at 4.


Surely this would mean a smaller club wouldn't receive the recognition for producing an excellent swimmer who is the best breaststroke swimmer in the country, who won both the 100 (with a 1.3s pb) & 200m (with a 2.4s pb) events, but I suppose this just reinforces the opinion of what constitutes a Top Club?

[happydays]

I agree with the point made about top club results being skewed by having just 1 or 2 outstanding swimmers winning lots of points and noone else at the meet.

Surely this statement contradicts this statement?

Surely the purpose is to determine the ranking of all clubs (not just the winner) based on all round performances of their swimmers at that meet.

[Incisor]

I throught the thread was just going to dwindle into pontification until you arrived :)

What a disrespectful and offensive comment to make, especially after posting this.



What should be included? - Open debate

[Barracuda]

What a disrespectful and offensive comment to make, especially after posting this.

You missed out supercilious or condescending, all quite normal I'm afraid.

[Pink Paraffin]

Disrespectful, offensive, supercilious and condescending

One of my better days then :p

[Bazza]

I think as mentioned you need to consider how you define the best club - is it the one producing the most national qualifiers or the on producing the best swimmers? I think both. Therefore you need to reward the best swimmers and quantity.

I think the system lane4 proposed does this pretty well, and on the whole I don't think you need to worry about clubs with one or two standout swimmers - some clubs in this situation may end up ranked above clubs with more qualifiers, but I can't see them finishing very high up or winning the competition.

I don't think top club competitions will ever be perfect as different people have different ideas about what makes a club the best. I think it is also impractical to differentiate between clubs based on size, age, merged clubs so we will probably have to accept to a certain extent that many clubs will not win the competition.

[swimbar]

The top club at the Youth Championships attracted some funding, until last year. Thus swimmers were 'encouraged' to swim Youth finals to gain points instead of progressing to Open semi finals/finals where they did not attract Youth Points.
This action was not liked by the World Class team, or whatever they are now called!!

The other problem appears to be that a Welsh Performance Centre won one of the Open Top Club awards last year because its EAD/SWD finalists scores were put into the system. So they should be, equality and all that!!

This upset some of the clubs with only Able Bodied swimmers so they moaned to the BSCTA.

The BSCTA, requested a change to the ASA TSC. They were sent away to come up with a system that was to their satisfaction, hence these posts, to be considered by the ASA TSC at its next meeting. Nothing appeared at the last meeting and I think it was presumed that point scoring at the Youth Championships & Open Championships was finished.

Time is running out for a reprieve as the TSC meeting is on Sunday!!

At the moment I believe the only Top Club scoring will be at the Age Groups which will score 10 - 1 for final places, all swimmers to count.

Youth swimmers tend to migrate to the larger clubs? - unlike the age groups where the top club trophy represents strength in age group swimming within what could be a 'smaller' club.

The Youth trophy is only going to be won by a small number of larger clubs, or those with just three or four top swimmers. (ask Mr Juba!!)

The Open Trophy will presumably always be won by a certain university or a Performance Centre.

I think this is a no win situation!!

[Linny]

The top club at the Youth Championships attracted some funding, until last year. Thus swimmers were 'encouraged' to swim Youth finals to gain points instead of progressing to Open semi finals/finals where they did not attract Youth Points.
This action was not liked by the World Class team, or whatever they are now called!!One of the problems with a combined event that is trying to serve too many purposes I guess.
The other problem appears to be that a Welsh Performance Centre won one of the Open Top Club awards last year because its EAD/SWD finalists scores were put into the system. So they should be, equality and all that!!

This upset some of the clubs with only Able Bodied swimmers so they moaned to the BSCTA.Quite rightly too in my opinion, it has nothing to do with "equality and all that". Why not include a couple of games of water polo and some synchro; different disciplines.
The BSCTA, requested a change to the ASA TSC. They were sent away to come up with a system that was to their satisfaction, hence these posts, to be considered by the ASA TSC at its next meeting. Nothing appeared at the last meeting and I think it was presumed that point scoring at the Youth Championships & Open Championships was finished.

Time is running out for a reprieve as the TSC meeting is on Sunday!!Are the BSCTA the real reason that Bill is looking to coaches outside the UK? At the moment I believe the only Top Club scoring will be at the Age Groups which will score 10 - 1 for final places, all swimmers to count.

Youth swimmers tend to migrate to the larger clubs? - unlike the age groups where the top club trophy represents strength in age group swimming within what could be a 'smaller' club.

The Youth trophy is only going to be won by a small number of larger clubs, or those with just three or four top swimmers. (ask Mr Juba!!)

The Open Trophy will presumably always be won by a certain university or a Performance Centre.

I think this is a no win situation!!It may be a no win situation but I do think it is important for Clubs to be able to measure their own performances against others and against their own previous performances to see how they are progressing. For that reason Club rankings using points scores such as lane4 suggests is definitely a good idea in my opinion for age-group, youth and open. As you rightly point out though all teams entered are not the same and it is a bit of a nonsense for peformance centres to be eligible with all the benefits that they get from the very body that is organising the Championships - talk about patting yourselves on the back. Perhaps this could be addressed by swimmers at performance centres retaining their original Clubs ranked 1 for the purpose of domestic competitions and swim for them but then that wouldn't go down well with the world class thingy whatever they are called people either.

What does the ASA think the Youth and Open top club trophys should be for swimbar?

[swimbar]

Quite rightly too in my opinion, it has nothing to do with "equality and all that". Why not include a couple of games of water polo and some synchro; different disciplines..........

What does the ASA think the Youth and Open top club trophys should be for swimbar?

Can't agree. Surely if you dont include them this is positive discrimination!! All competitors are taking part in swimming - not water polo, syncronised swimming or diving.

Doubt that the ASA has any idea what they should be for.

Why not have a medal table instead of points? That's all that people look at at International Events

[Linny]

Can't agree. Surely if you dont include them this is positive discrimination!! All competitors are taking part in swimming - not water polo, syncronised swimming or diving.We'll have to agree to differ on that one.
Doubt that the ASA has any idea what they should be for. Well what are the championships for then? Let's start there.Why not have a medal table instead of points? That's all that people look at at International EventsThat's not completely true. After the European Championships last year British swimming were able to celebrate finishing top of the Championships table despite finishing only 7th in the medals table. Weren't we told that this was an indication of our much improved strength in depth despite our shortage of swimmers at the very top? I would have thought that this it is this kind of achievement that the Top Club award should be recognising. Those Clubs with medal winners will have lots of medals won't they so they will know how well they've done; of course the two may be the same but they may not.

Different terms of reference swimbar, it depends on the criteria you set according to how you measure success. Come next year of course only medals will count. ;)

[swimbar]

Well what are the championships for then? Let's start there.....
Different terms of reference swimbar, it depends on the criteria you set according to how you measure success. Come next year of course only medals will count. ;)

I think we all know what the Championships are for. They are to select the Youth Champion in each event and presumably that will define where the rest of the swimmers are in relation to the Champion.

They are also a selection meet for the Talent Programme.

However the question should be 'How do you define "Top Club"'

Most swimmers? - probably not
Most medalists? - possibly
Most finalists? - possibly
Most finalists pro-rata to the number of the clubs entrants - possibly

Is it fair to include consolidated clubs or squads?
Surely that makes the whole process very unfair.

Should we include Scotland and Welsh clubs?. After all its an ASA Competition.

I think there are too many imponderables to come to a sensible conclusion

[Phil Tanner]

The trouble with medal tables as usually configured at Olympics and Commonwealths is the way they rank a country with one gold medal and no others above one with, say, three silvers and six bronze. Points 3-2-1 would be much fairer, IMHO.

[Katie]

At first I didn't really see the problem with one very good swimmer accumulating loads of points for their club, but then I suppose that's what top swimmer awards should be for, not top club. Maybe it could be worked out by taking the top GB points (or FINA points or whatever) for each swimmer achieved during the competition - so each swimmer can only score once - and then adding that together to get a top club? I don't know if there's really any advantage to doing it this way as opposed to the way others have suggested.

[happydays]

Disrespectful, offensive, supercilious and condescending

One of my better days then :p

Thanks PP, I was worried this thread was going to get all grown up?

[Woodward]

The trouble with medal tables as usually configured at Olympics and Commonwealths is the way they rank a country with one gold medal and no others above one with, say, three silvers and six bronze. Points 3-2-1 would be much fairer, IMHO.

Don't tell that to Don Talbot. Ergo Fukuoka 2001.

"Ah mate but it's Golds that count"

[Woodward]

It think a staggered points system is good.

If the points system gives emphasis to relays even better.

[sharkey]

Relays show strength and depth in a club IMHO so giving emphasis to relays seems a good measure of a top club. Maybe could have top girls relay, top boys relay and top overall club?

[happydays]

Relays show strength and depth in a club IMHO so giving emphasis to relays seems a good measure of a top club. Maybe could have top girls relay, top boys relay and top overall club?

So how does that work? 3 members of the freestyle relay team made individual national times, one of which could be a finalist, while the 4th member didn't make nationals, so how does that show that that club is strong and is deep?

[Linny]

So how does that work? 3 members of the freestyle relay team made individual national times, one of which could be a finalist, while the 4th member didn't make nationals, so how does that show that that club is strong and is deep?I don't understand why this is a difficult concept. :confused:

[goslow]

How about scoreing events as they normally are scored and then do some clever sums to take into account the number of swimmers attending the meet. Or should that be the number of seperate swims? Not made my mind up about that one.

So if Club A has 100 swims, and scores 300 points then there score would be 3.

If Club B has 50 swims and scores 200 points there score would be 4.

So even though Club B has less points at the end because they had a higher preportion of there swims scoring then they win.

Another way would be to take into account the number of separate swimmers but I can't figure out what would constitute a better club. If Club A scores 300 points from 30 swimmers and Club C scores 300 points from 60 swimmers, which is the better club? I'm guessing it would be Club A. If Club B got there 200 points from 30 swimmers there score would be 6.666 so doing it this way, Club A would be better than Club B, who would be better than Club C.

So if Club A gets 300 points from 30 seperate swimmers there score would be 10 but if Club C gets 300 points from 60 swimmers there score would be 5.

Now Im really confused!

[happydays]

I don't understand why this is a difficult concept. :confused:

I don't understand why it isn't?

[tornado]

What is your perception of a strong club with depth, perhaps when this can be agreed on, you might just agree on a scoring sytem to identify who they are?

984

[Phil Tanner]

Indeed. If there's no obviously fair and transparent way of assessing it - and from the variables pointed out on this thread, it looks like that's the case - it might be better to drop the idea.

[happydays]

What is your perception of a strong club with depth, perhaps when this can be agreed on, you might just agree on a scoring sytem to identify who they are?

984

In my opinion a club with depth would be one who had several different ages, of both sex's competing at different events at different distances, a strong club would be one who had swimmers qualify for finals, therefore a strong club with depth would be both of these.
Therefore a points system similar to the bagcats system might work, or would a system similar to those used at Open Meets work?

[Linny]

In my opinion a club with depth would be one who had several different ages, of both sex's competing at different events at different distancesI would say that what you are describing is a Club with range, one might argue that strength and range is what determines the winners of the speedo league although it is limited range because of the choices of events. Depth is different. A Club could have great depth (simply speaking many swimmers at a good level) in one event say because that is all they focus on or in limited age groups (because they are a feeder Club or a performance centre). Look at Lufbra Uni. They have great strength and good depth but only for open swimmers and their range isn't great there either because there is such a focus on the 200 free. Even so, they could go to any open meet in the Country and be Top Club because of the quality of the swimmers; enter them into the Speedo League though and they will be crap because they don't have any age group swimmers.a strong club would be one who had swimmers qualify for finalsI agree that this could be a measure of strength.

Top Club then - strong with depth and range?

[happydays]

I would say that what you are describing is a Club with range, one might argue that strength and range is what determines the winners of the speedo league although it is limited range because of the choices of events. Depth is different. A Club could have great depth (simply speaking many swimmers at a good level) in one event say because that is all they focus on or in limited age groups (because they are a feeder Club or a performance centre). Look at Lufbra Uni. They have great strength and good depth but only for open swimmers and their range isn't great there either because there is such a focus on the 200 free. Even so, they could go to any open meet in the Country and be Top Club because of the quality of the swimmers; enter them into the Speedo League though and they will be crap because they don't have any age group swimmers.I agree that this could be a measure of strength.

Top Club then - strong with depth and range?

To me you have just described a club with no depth, being strong only at one event in one age group.
In football terms as much as I hate to say it, Man Utd have great depth, everyone of their players sitting on the bench would walk into most other Premiership 1st teams. Where Liverpool are a strong team and on their day could beat nearly anyone, but do not have the depth to win the title. And no I'm not a Man Utd or Liverpool supporter.

[Linny]

To me you have just described a club with no depth, being strong only at one event in one age group.
Maybe you are right happydays, but if you mean how I described Lufbra, I wasn't suggesting that they don't have strength in other events, just that there wasn't the depth (according to my understanding of depth) in these other events that there is in the 200 free. Deep means to me having many layers, or going down a long way so if a Club has only got 200 free swimmers and all of them are great I would say that they had great strength and depth over a very limited range.

This is just terminology anyway; wonder what they came up with?

[happydays]

In view the original question (and I can remember what it was), a scoring system is needed to determine the Top club at Youths, being strong in the open age wouldn't in my opinion also make it a club of depth in that limited range, therefore the scoring sytem would need to identify this, and they wouldn't win Top Club. What we still need to agree on, is what do we consider as criteria for winning the Top club award at that compeition.
This is something we do agree on, we don't agree on it.

[tornado]

So everyone, how should the system be operated to determine the Top Club Award at the National Youth Championships? :speechles

What is your suggestion?

[ringer]

This brainstorming session and the idea of starting with a blank sheet of paper is all well and good but if it wasn't broke why are the BSCTA being asked to fix it?
To stimulate thought process further could anyone answer these questions please?
Was the top club outcome perverse last year?
What was the result last year?
What were the criteria/conditions last year?
What is a conglomerate club?

[lane4]

This brainstorming session and the idea of starting with a blank sheet of paper is all well and good but if it wasn't broke why are the BSCTA being asked to fix it?
It was broke though - because Swansea Performance Centre (or SwimSwansea, or whatever the name of the team is in Swansea these days) scored a LOT of points from disabled athletes only and a lot of other clubs thought that was rather unfair and did not reflect on the true strength of them verses us in what was primarily an able bodied meet.

[?**!!?]

Why are athletes with disabilities and able bodied athletes competing at the same meet? Shouldn't they be in seperate cpmpetitions like the olympics / para olympics?

[swimbar]

Why shouldn't they compete in the same meet?.
All athletes should be entitled to compete in a National Championships, providing they comply with the standards set down.

Is it not some of our coaches who are out of step and not in the real world?

Lane4 Do they compete in Scotland?

[chris_lamb]

Why shouldn't they compete in the same meet?.
All athletes should be entitled to compete in a National Championships, providing they comply with the standards set down.


The problem is with the points scoring. I'm guessing that clubs were awarded the same number of points for coming first in a disability event as in an able bodied event which makes little sense when you have 10 swimmers in the disability event and 100 in the able bodied event.

[lane4]

Why shouldn't they compete in the same meet?.
All athletes should be entitled to compete in a National Championships, providing they comply with the standards set down.

Is it not some of our coaches who are out of step and not in the real world?

Lane4 Do they compete in Scotland?
The Paralympic World Cup recently took place in Manchester. How many able bodied athletes were integrated into the meet? There are plenty other disability events that go on - why do they not include able bodied events?
In Scotland, the nationals this coming week will include a couple of disability races within the finals sessions.
As the IOC did with the Olympics, there is a point where you have to say that this competition is too big already, we just don't have the time or space to include another x number of events for disability swimmers in order to do it justice - perhaps it is better for everyone to have a separate competition?
Sorry, I realise the thread is drifting away from its original point here.

[ringer]

This is essentially the ASA National able-bodied Meet with disability events included to provide a Long Course Championship for those swimmers. It is not an integrated meet with disability athletes competing against able-bodied athletes race for race.
Therefore on the basis of the form of competition there should be separate and distinct able-bodied and disability Top Club assessments (as there are for top boys club and top girls club).
There could then be an assessment of Top Dual Club based on the aggregate of results of able-bodied and disability events if thought desirable.
lane4's suggested points system looks ok provided the systems input and engineer the proper placing of youth's times from the Open finals if required to swim in them rather than the youth equivalent.

[Linny]

In Scotland, the nationals this coming week will include a couple of disability races within the finals sessions.And these are as I understand them "exhibition" events with swimmers competing by invitation rather than qualification.

[Taxiandbank]

National Youth Championships Top Club. As I read the programme the MD events are not part of the YOUTH championships. Top club at the youth should be just that Girls 14-17 and boys 15-18.
If the ASA Championships want to have a top club (or performance centre) then why shouldn't Swansea (A.B. and M.D) compete against Bath, Loughborough, Stirling etc etc

[swimbar]

National Youth Championships Top Club. As I read the programme the MD events are not part of the YOUTH championships. Top club at the youth should be just that Girls 14-17 and boys 15-18.
If the ASA Championships want to have a top club (or performance centre) then why shouldn't Swansea (A.B. and M.D) compete against Bath, Loughborough, Stirling etc etc

How I wish life was so simple.

The problem is that Coaches want to include the points, obtained by Youth swimmers, in the ASA Long Course Championships into the Youth Points, if a Youth chooses the Open route rather than the Youth final.

Scoring the Youth from 10 points down to 1 point for 10th place, in a final, is easy. Unfortunately the easy way out is not, it would appear, acceptable.

Although I appreciate the thread was started for Youth Championship scoring, as you will have gathered from some of the posts, the problems and issues affect both championships.

Next year, apparently, it is proposed to have separate championships, with the Long Course in late June, so shouldn't be a problem. (except for Lane 4!!)

[?**!!?]

How I wish life was so simple.

The problem is that Coaches want to include the points, obtained by Youth swimmers, in the ASA Long Course Championships into the Youth Points, if a Youth chooses the Open route rather than the Youth final.

Scoring the Youth from 10 points down to 1 point for 10th place, in a final, is easy. Unfortunately the easy way out is not, it would appear, acceptable.

Although I appreciate the thread was started for Youth Championship scoring, as you will have gathered from some of the posts, the problems and issues affect both championships.

Next year, apparently, it is proposed to have separate championships, with the Long Course in late June, so shouldn't be a problem. (except for Lane 4!!)

I think lane4’s premiss is absolutely correct.

Swimbar I am pleased there is to be an alternative championship, it's well overdue, and I don’t think I’m out of line (although pc correctness brigade will be frowning now) by stating that the majority of coaches that endured the delays and tedium of the past nationals will not be sad to see their exit. The truth hurts sometimes.

[lane4]

The problem is that Coaches want to include the points, obtained by Youth swimmers, in the ASA Long Course Championships into the Youth Points, if a Youth chooses the Open route rather than the Youth final. I'm sorry but I am certainly not one of them. Surely that is unacceptable. Youth points must be scored in Youth events. If a swimmer/coach chooses to swim in an Open final instead of the Youth race then they cannot reasonably expect to score Youth points after withdrawing from the Youth event? Or if they do both they cannot double score! Of course there should be a top club award for the ASA Long Course Championships as well as Youth and Age.

Next year, apparently, it is proposed to have separate championships, with the Long Course in late June, so shouldn't be a problem. (except for Lane 4!!)
And if the ASA meet runs as proposed at the same time as the SASA meet in late June then I suspect there will be a distinct lack of entries for the ASA version of events! And it won't be just Scots who don't go to the ASA meet, lots of English clubs will come to the SASA meet I reckon, as they know it will mean more swimmers getting more swims. However, the last I heard, plans were being formed to prevent a clash between the two.

[Linny]

So everyone, how should the system be operated to determine the Top Club Award at the National Youth Championships? :speechlesWhat was the conclusion? Or won't you know until after the event? ;)

[lane4]

10 down to 1 points for 1st to 10th in the HEATS for all YOUTH events with relay events scoring double.

[Linny]

10 down to 1 points for 1st to 10th in the HEATS for all YOUTH events with relay events scoring double.I hadn't realised until you said this, although if I had thought about it it was obvious, that there are no open relay events even though they are listed as such. There used to be when the opens were separate from the youths. I can see the logistical issues because one couldn't have both youth and open relay events whilst combining the events would mean that youth couldn't swim against youth because many would be swimming in open teams. Seems a shame though.