World Cup

[Taxiandbank]

Start list for Sydney
http://www.swimming.org.au/upload/sitedata/swimming%20australia/national/meet/data/2007%20fina%20world%20cup/psych%20sheets.pdf

[Curly]

Unless I am mistaken, Lizzie Simmonds has just broken the British Record on 100m back in58.55 - putting her first into the final. Fantastic swim and I think her first British Record - but sure it won't be her last!

[Mac]

And even faster in the final - a 58.1 commonwealth record in what looks to have been a very fast face between the first 4 or 5 swimmers. Also british records for Hannah Miley (4.33 400IM) and Liam Tancock yesterday in the 100IM (53.8). Good to see more records!

[Linny]

Some very fast swimming in Berlin, including an amazing world record for Stefan Nystrand in the 100 free; a blooming fast 200 free from Manadou followed up by what looks to be the fastest 200IM in the world this year (she must be doing some training ;)), an amazing 400 free from Tae Hwan Park and an incredible 400IM from Pereira.

Results as they happen if you happen to have the time or inclination to look on omegalivetiming (http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2007/berlin2007/index.htm).

[lane4]

Some very fast swimming in Berlin,
Plus a new world record in the women's 50 free 23.58 for Veldhuis plus an American record for Torres 23.82. Shame no Brits are there.

[swimbar]

Plus a new world record in the women's 50 free 23.58 for Veldhuis plus an American record for Torres 23.82. Shame no Brits are there.

Is Darren Mew no longer British?

[colonelhall]

"Is Darren Mew no longer British?"

I think that one may be forgiven for not spotting him amongst this lot!
Things look tougher for the Brits, each wek.

[2.tso]

Stefan Nystrand Downs Men's 100 SCM Free World Record 45.83

[Stevie_k]

Stefan Nystrand Downs Men's 100 SCM Free World Record 45.83

Good lord!

That is swimming in a rubadub stylee!

[hologram]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOniu58cMbs

100 free wr on youtube

[Juicy Lucy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOniu58cMbs

100 free wr on youtube

How many swimmers will change to a straight arm over-water recovery after seeing this?

[NotVeryFast]

How many swimmers will change to a straight arm over-water recovery after seeing this?
I find it interesting how his stroke differs in pretty much every way from how Total Immersion tells people to swim. He looks to me to be trying to keep body rotation as minimal as possible, and to focus on continuity of propulsion, with no pause whatsoever after the hand entry, the hand goes into the water and continues its downward movement, so the hands are pretty much moving around in circles above and below the water, windmill fashion. Dave Marsh advocates this style for sprinters.

It really is beyond my comprehension how people can swim so fast. It says his 2nd 50 was 23.74, I managed 25.50 the other day from a push off with training fins, and I feel like I am absolutely hurtling through the water when doing that, to think that someone can go almost 2 seconds faster without fins, I just can't imagine how they generate so much speed, it's truly amazing.

[Linny]

I am in awe of the way Tae Hwan Park can swim 14.34 for 1500 free and then like 12 minutes later (according to the reporting of the results anyway so I am assuming it isn't much more) can swim 1.42.2 for 200.

[2.tso]

Thiago Pereira Sets 200 SCM IM World Record in Berlin 1:53.14

[2.tso]

he's at it again!

Flash! Stefan Nystrand Claims Second World Record in as Many Days

50 free 20.93

[Gina]

His stroke reminds me of a video I saw of Janet Evans bashing around in the 400 free.

I think the main thing to worry about is keeping the length of stroke and tempo. Sometimes it looks good and sometimes it doesn't.

Also Fred Bousquet has a similar stroke if you look at this video (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-9020906061082653007) from about 1.30 onwards it shows a good angle to view his arms.

[Stevie_k]

Thanks for the newsflash's bri.

I watched the 100 free. Wow thats just viscous swimming.

There was a clip of him swimming 50 meters at a pretty liesurely pace from a push start......at 30 seconds.

That is incredible. That is my absolute ballsout pace.

Of course the 20.93 is incredible, but i find watching him cruise up and down in 30 with such nonchalance is just as impressive.

And ive never heard of him before either. Where was he when the melbourne world championships were on or helsinki short course? (the only 2 tournys ive ever seen)

[NotVeryFast]

There was a clip of him swimming 50 meters at a pretty liesurely pace from a push start......at 30 seconds.

That is incredible. That is my absolute ballsout pace.

Of course the 20.93 is incredible, but i find watching him cruise up and down in 30 with such nonchalance is just as impressive.
Thing is, 30 secs is PB+9 for him. I could do my PB+9 looking pretty effortless.

For those who can't find the video Stevie is referring to, this is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbb2MkBtN20

This one is also interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0gtwQxdXCU
A lot of knee bend in his kick.

[Stevie_k]

Your right NVF. My pb + 9 would be 38.7

Thats a chris waddle!

The fast 50 is a great link. Brilliant. It looks like its in fast forward.

Hes getting some proper welly from his legs.

[Bazza]

Nystrand's been around for years Stevie - he nearly broke the world record for the 50m in 2001 when it was still held by Foster. He said in the run up to the world cup that he wanted to break the 100m world record in Berlin. He got faster in every round and did it but still, 45 is really something!

I find it quite interesting that three of those four world records had the previous record holder in the race!

Also the 50m world record of Schoeman was a little bit controversial because of the pool it was done in, so as a neautral I'm pleased to see someone swim sub 21 in a 'normal' pool.

Finally, regarding his technique, (aimed at NVF in particular) I think minimal body rotation is recommended on sprint freestyle and I'm sure any coach would tell you that your stroke should be continuous - no time for pauses on a 50m! As for straight arm recovery, several people have had that technique over the years, including Michael Klim yet the majority seem to favour high elbow, so I'm not sure we will see much impact from that.

[NotVeryFast]

Finally, regarding his technique, (aimed at NVF in particular) I think minimal body rotation is recommended on sprint freestyle and I'm sure any coach would tell you that your stroke should be continuous - no time for pauses on a 50m!
I agree, it just amazes me that TI are still teaching people to roll all over the place from side to side and take 10 strokes per length by gliding for ages and stuff.

[2.tso]

nvf as regards to what ti teach you should always use your own interpretation for what fits the swimmer at the time,(why do you think mr laughlan is making so much money?) re: alex popov super slow swimming genadi would stop alex if he was doing too many strokes per length, as regadring the records broken they will be broken again as will the long course 50 100 200 they are not quite there yet!

[lane4]

I agree, it just amazes me that TI are still teaching people to roll all over the place from side to side and take 10 strokes per length by gliding for ages and stuff.
Hey NVF, are we about to kick off the whole TI debate again!? Wouldn't that be fun! All it needs is a couple more negative remarks from someone about how TI is one big money making scheme bearing no resemblence to how top swimmers actually swim fast and the TI Brigade will come running, shouting and screaming.

[2.tso]

i am not bashing ti swimming i just think its a great way to make money, as is a person wrighting books on how to swim and how to coach when they are scared of the water, so is teaching lessons!

life is too short if you can make money make money!

so is teaching lessons! let them come screaming at me i dont care! some of the ti stuff is very good other bits of it are worth nothing. (IMHO) BUT THATS JUST ME!

ASA level 1 and 2 some bits are good other bits are pure rubish!

i am not speaking on behalf of anyone but myself.

[Linny]

I agree, it just amazes me that TI are still teaching people to roll all over the place from side to side and take 10 strokes per length by gliding for ages and stuff.Oh look, deary me, did someone deliberately and with malice aforeforethought divert a thread to his own end despite not appreciating others doing the same?

Shame on you NVF.

http://forums.thepoliticalasylum.com/images/smilies/throw.gif

(Don't throw stones in glass houses - that's me on the left by the way....:clear:)From 2.0mps - nvf as regards to what ti teach.....
From lane4 - Hey NVF, are we about to kick off the whole TI debate again.....
From 2.0mps - i am not bashing ti swimming i just think.....And lane4 and 2.0mps, did you with mens rea, deliberately join in the diversionary tactics of a known reprobate?

Bend over boys...

http://forums.keeptouch.net/images/smilies/spank.gif

Let's talk about the World Cup here!

If you want to talk TI, start a thread, go on, feel free, I'll even join in.

[NotVeryFast]

Oh look, deary me, did someone deliberately and with malice aforeforethought divert a thread to his own end despite not appreciating others doing the same?

Shame on you NVF.
I think discussion of the technique of swimmers in races at the World Cup is on topic for this thread. I only made the further post you quoted to respond to Bazza as clarification. And now I'm only making this further off topic post to respond to you. I agree any discussion specifically of TI (rather than of the technique used by swimmers at the World Cup where one might reasonably mention TI in passing to contrast with the technique observed) should be a separate thread.

[Linny]

Perhaps it is just the words then. Maybe we should ask Chris for the words "total", "immersion", "Terry", "Laughlin" and "TI" to receive the same treatment as obsceneties because they always seem to distract contributors from the thread in the same way as any mention of ****ing, ****ing, ****ting and red latex gloves.

Me, I'm looking forward to Brazil.

[Gina]

Wow, I'm looking forward to Europeans so much more now. I'd love to see a WR broken as the last time was at the Speedo Grand Prix in 2000.

[Bazza]

Sorry to burst your bubble Gina but I think Nystrand was peaking for Berlin, therefore it seems unlikely he will go faster at Europeans. I'd love to be proved wrong though, and there are others who have a shot. :)

[Woodward]

I think there's a good possibility for some records even if Debrecen's pool isn't as fast as Berlin's. There are some "vulnerable" S/C records that are due to be broken.

[NotVeryFast]

Looking at Thiago Pereira's 200m IM WR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV3SEAxseU0), it really is an amazing swim. He did the first 50m fly in 24.86. For comparison, in the 2006 GB SC 50m fly rankings (http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5157-51138-121585-0-file,00.pdf), only 6 people did a faster 50m fly than that. One place above him would have been Mark Foster with 24.45. Yet Thiago's swimming looks smooth and unhurried, it's very hard to understand how such apparently effortless swimming results in the first 50m fly of a 200m IM being faster than almost anyone in GB can manage for a flat out 50m fly. The rest of us will just have to keep trying in the hope that some day we discover what we're doing wrong!

[Woodward]

Looking at Thiago Pereira's 200m IM WR (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV3SEAxseU0), it really is an amazing swim. He did the first 50m fly in 24.86. For comparison, in the 2006 GB SC 50m fly rankings (http://www.sportcentric.com/vmgmt/vfilemgmt/page/filedownload/1,8202,5157-51138-121585-0-file,00.pdf), only 6 people did a faster 50m fly than that. And how many of those were rested? And how many of the top swimmers besides Foster have made this a priority event? Has British Swimming identified the 50 fly as a target event for any purpose? Not that takes away from a fabulous performance from Thiago.

I think there tends to be plenty of hyperbole when it comes to S/C times, splits, and records. S/C was barely on the map a decade ago. Only a few current S/C marks register as jaw dropping to me (e.g. Hackett's 1500 or Manaudou's 400). Swimmers such as Popov and Vdh only swam short course sparingly. Phelps has never swam a s/c meet rested. In fact I believe he's only swam at a S/C meet twice in his career. Though I think the standard is gradually closing the gap on L/C. But there's a ways to go.
For instance many events S/C are rather lagging to the point were "mediocrity" would be too kind a description. (e.g. the current women's 200 fly record is just over one second quicker than the L/C mark.)

[Woodward]

And to further underscore the point Liam Tancock posted the exact same fly split (24.86) in Sydney in the 200IM. Only unlike Pereira I gather that he was not rested.

But don't count on The Tank swimming the S/C 50 fly any time soon ... for obvious reasons.

[Linny]

Woodward, everything you have said is true but I think you have missed what NVF was saying because to me his main point wasThiago's swimming looks smooth and unhurried, it's very hard to understand how such apparently effortless swimming results in the first 50m fly of a 200m IM being faster than almost anyone in GB can manage for a flat out 50m fly.and it was this that he found amazing, not the time itself.

[NotVeryFast]

it was this that he found amazing, not the time itself.
Yes, definitely, by comparison, watching Owen Morgan swim 24.5, he really looks like he's giving it everything he's got, which of course he is. When you see Owen do that time, it looks like something that very few people would be able to emulate. But Pereira's 24.8, on the other hand, looked like something that everyone should be able to do and not even be out of breath at the end of it. It's possible it's partly the youtube quality, though, as I looked at my recording of the 200 IM final from the 2007 World Champs, and he didn't look anything like as impressive, and you don't get to see him underwater because the camera is always on Phelps in the next lane away from the camera.

[lane4]

But Pereira's 24.8, on the other hand, looked like something that everyone should be able to do and not even be out of breath at the end of it. It's possible it's partly the youtube quality, though, as I looked at my recording of the 200 IM final from the 2007 World Champs, and he didn't look anything like as impressive, and you don't get to see him underwater because the camera is always on Phelps in the next lane away from the camera.
It's also possible that it's down to the amount of training Pereira does and has done throughout his career (i.e. a lot more than most), combined with a high skill and talent level, leads to an easy looking 24.8.

[Woodward]

Woodward, everything you have said is true but I think you have missed what NVF was saying because to me his main point was and it was this that he found amazing, not the time itself.
No bone of debate in the section of NVF's comments that you quoted. That's why I cut that part out. However, it was the observation and the link to the rankings of British swimmers I was addressing. It was clearly a comparison but I think it is a somewhat misleading one.

Why wonder aloud why British swimmers can't emulate the ease with which Thiago swims the fly leg of his IM when it's very possible that they can? Many of the top British swimmers don't swim it rested often or even contest the 50 fly (e.g. Tancock, Burnett, etc).

[NotVeryFast]

Why wonder aloud why British swimmers can't emulate the ease with which Thiago swims the fly leg of his IM when it's very possible that they can? Many of the top British swimmers don't swim it rested often or even contest the 50 fly (e.g. Tancock, Burnett, etc).
It wasn't so much why they can't emulate the ease, as a way of doing a quick sanity check on how fast 24.86 is. It doesn't really matter whether 6 people can do it or 20 people can do it, it's still a miniscule fraction of the population. Most of the time, top swimmers look to be swimming in a manner that is beyond the physical capabilities of most of the population, e.g. when Phelps swims a 200 fly, he looks to primarily be able to work harder for the duration than his competitors. But Pereira's swim looked to be using a relatively low level of exertion for the time he did, particularly when you see him from underwater. That isn't to say anyone else can necessarily learn to do what he does, he may have some favourable physical attributes such as buoyancy, body shape etc, that let him appear relatively effortless, and if that is the case, people can no more acquire those characteristics than they could acquire Phelps' ability to sustain a high workrate. But it holds out a glimmer of hope for those of us who know we can never have Phelps' workrate, in that we can continue to try to become more efficient in the water, inspired by seeing other swimmers who appear to be very efficient in the water.

[Woodward]

It wasn't so much why they can't emulate the ease, as a way of doing a quick sanity check on how fast 24.86 is.
Still, and I know I'm being stubborn about this 24.86 is a solid but not spectacular time at the top level even as the first leg of the 200IM. It's still more than 2 secs off the world record. Fly is Thiago's "weakest" stroke!



It doesn't really matter whether 6 people can do it or 20 people can do it, it's still a miniscule fraction of the population. I assume by "population" you mean people that competitively swim. If the entire population in general participated in this sport we might have 50 fold the number of Hacketts, Manaudous, and Phelpses.


Most of the time, top swimmers look to be swimming in a manner that is beyond the physical capabilities of most of the population, As Lane 4 mentioned ... how many of the rest of the "population" train like the top swimmers? Since someone is bound to mention Nystrand's alleged light in season work it's also worth remembering that it's also a matter of talent and genetics. Just because I train like Haile Gebrsellasie doesn't mean I will remotely approach him.


But Pereira's swim looked to be using a relatively low level of exertion for the time he did, particularly when you see him from underwater. No one beats Thorpe though for making huge swims look leisurely. He seemed to float across the water with little exertion compared to the thrashers in the adjacent lanes.

[NotVeryFast]

Still, and I know I'm being stubborn about this 24.86 is a solid but not spectacular time at the top level even as the first leg of the 200IM. It's still more than 2 secs off the world record. Fly is Thiago's "weakest" stroke!

I assume by "population" you mean people that competitively swim. If the entire population in general participated in this sport we might have 50 fold the number of Hacketts, Manaudous, and Phelpses.
I think we're somehow looking at it from different perspectives and I'm not able to understand yours any more than you're able to understand mine. I'm not disputing there are plenty of people in the world who can swim 24.86. My interest is in the people who can't, and why they can't. Why can't a coach take any arbitrary male who walks into their club and train them to do SC 50 fly in 24.86? Okay, the rankings don't tell the full story in terms of capability, but they're not going to be a million miles away from reality. In the all time GB database with all ranking swims since 1997, there are only 22 people who have gone faster, out of 20,939 people. This represents 0.1% of the swimming population. Okay, some of those are young kids, but even if the real figure were ten times as high, 1%, it would still mean that swimming SC 50 fly in 24.86 is incredibly difficult. There are large numbers of kids up and down the UK putting in massive training meterages, as far as I'm aware approx 20 hours per week is not an unusual amount of pool time for kids these days. As for how many of the general population become part of the swimming population, when I was a kid, people tended to gravitate towards a sport they displayed talent in. Some of the people who didn't have obvious swimming talent could perhaps have been trained to become good swimmers, but I think it's reasonable to suppose that the level of swimming talent in the population of swimmers is substantially higher than in the general population.

As Lane 4 mentioned ... how many of the rest of the "population" train like the top swimmers? Since someone is bound to mention Nystrand's alleged light in season work it's also worth remembering that it's also a matter of talent and genetics. Just because I train like Haile Gebrsellasie doesn't mean I will remotely approach him.
I think an awful lot of kids in the UK are doing in excess of 50km a week. "Talent" bundles up a lot of different things, what I'm interested in is what exactly makes some people able to swim as fast as they do, and can we do something to train other people to swim at a similar speed. Apparent effortlessness might be due to genetic factors that we cannot transfer to other people, or it might be due to some technique aspects that we haven't yet managed to identify and teach to those who can't do it as well.

No one beats Thorpe though for making huge swims look leisurely. He seemed to float across the water with little exertion compared to the thrashers in the adjacent lanes.
He was a big bloke, though - apparent ease scales up with height as you'll always travel further per stroke with longer arms and lower drag from a longer "hull". Pereira is "only" 6' 1". Still, if you compare the first 1/4 of Thorpe's LC 400 free WR, he swam 52.98, which has been bettered by 142 GB swimmers since 1997 out of 13,663, so this represents 1% of the swimming population vs the first 1/4 of Pereira's race which represents 0.1% by the same measure.

[Woodward]

My interest is in the people who can't, and why they can't. Why can't a coach take any arbitrary male who walks into their club and train them to do SC 50 fly in 24.86? Not all people have the potential. The idea is to find out who does and isn't approaching it. Why can't a good teacher take any arbitrary student and teach them to be the next Shakespeare or Copernicus?


Okay, the rankings don't tell the full story in terms of capability, but they're not going to be a million miles away from reality. In the all time GB database with all ranking swims since 1997, there are only 22 people who have gone faster, out of 20,939 people. This represents 0.1% of the swimming population. Okay, some of those are young kids, but even if the real figure were ten times as high, 1%, it would still mean that swimming SC 50 fly in 24.86 is incredibly difficult. If the number was ten times as high? 20,939 is a large number. I'm skeptical that it's a level or realistic comparison. Only "some" of those are young kids? How many of those are older than 20? How do they train? The database by it's naked self adds limited context to the comparison that you're trying to make. But I do agree that swimming that time takes a lot of work and ability.


There are large numbers of kids up and down the UK putting in massive training meterages, as far as I'm aware approx 20 hours per week is not an unusual amount of pool time for kids these days. How many of them train to level of Pereira? Further how many of them would you guess have his talent? Apart from the very top of the sport we're talking about a very straightforward formula of talent + conditioning making the difference. Most of those ranked far back in arrears are not going to make up that large deficit with a coaching strategem here or a technique adjustment there like those at the top can do.


As for how many of the general population become part of the swimming population, when I was a kid, people tended to gravitate towards a sport they displayed talent in. The operative word being "displayed." 2/3s of young adults in California don't know how to swim (ie they haven't been taught/had the opportunity). We have plenty of beaches and swim clubs though.

Why aren't more British kids involved in Trampolining? Are they just not good at it so they gravitate to something else? There are other factors at work here ... especially in a sport like swimming. A more readily recognised talent such as running and your point would have a firmer platform.


Some of the people who didn't have obvious swimming talent could perhaps have been trained to become good swimmers, Good as in Olympic team good? National meet qualifier good? How good is good?


but I think it's reasonable to suppose that the level of swimming talent in the population of swimmers is substantially higher than in the general population.
Substantially? How do you know? Is it reasonable then to suppose that the level of swimming talent in the Australian, German, Russian, and American populations is "substantially" superior to that in India, Nigeria, and Mexico?

And no I'm not trying to back you into a trap. It's just that factors such as opportunity, awareness, and sporting culture are more important than potential in a person's lifestyle choices. Especially in a sport like swimming where latent talent is so likely to be unrealized if they never learn to swim properly let alone ever visit a pool or beach regularly. Ed Moses was attempting to be a professional golfer when he discovered swimming quite by accident in his late teens. Kieren Perkins took up swimming after falling through a screen door and the doctor recommended swimming for physical therapy. The list is endless and most potential in a sport like swimming is likely never discovered even in opportunity/resource rich countries.

Few people say to themselves "I've got a lanky build, large feet, large hands, and wide shoulders ... why I should become a swimmer!" That is unless of course you live in a communist state with a wide reaching youth identification programme.



I think an awful lot of kids in the UK are doing in excess of 50km a week. Really? How many is an "awful lot?" Can you provide a rough estimate?



"Talent" bundles up a lot of different things, what I'm interested in is what exactly makes some people able to swim as fast as they do, and can we do something to train other people to swim at a similar speed. Apparent effortlessness might be due to genetic factors that we cannot transfer to other people, or it might be due to some technique aspects that we haven't yet managed to identify and teach to those who can't do it as well.
I alluded to this in my comments above. At the top say 50 to 100 or so swimmers in the world (depending on the event) I believe technique and training strategies (not necessarily volume) can make a difference. But getting afield of those levels training modalities and technique refinement are not going to narrow the gap sufficiently.


He was a big bloke, though - apparent ease scales up with height as you'll always travel further per stroke with longer arms and lower drag from a longer "hull". Pereira is "only" 6' 1". Still, if you compare the first 1/4 of Thorpe's LC 400 free WR, he swam 52.98, which has been bettered by 142 GB swimmers since 1997 out of 13,663, so this represents 1% of the swimming population vs the first 1/4 of Pereira's race which represents 0.1% by the same measure.
You're comparing the 100 split on a 400 L/C freestyle with a S/C fly split on an IM? You're also taking it beyond the pale when you don't take into account how the swimmers pace those races. I don't see how comparing a split which on it's own also happens to be the sport's blue riband event versus a short course 50 fly that is essentially a marginal event swum with much less frequency, by fewer swimmers, and not often at peak meets with rested athletes.

[NotVeryFast]

Further how many of them would you guess have his talent?
I'm obviously failing miserably to convey what I want to, but I'll have one last try. Saying person A is faster than person B because they are more talented is not a very enlightening explanation to me. Yes, if the talent takes an obvious form, such as being unusually large, or having an unusual capacity to do physical work, then it does provide understanding, but my whole point, really, is that the nature of Pereira's talent is not immediately obvious, at least not to me. What do you think is the nature of his talent that allows him to swim a time that so few people can? He isn't particularly big, but nor does he appear to swim with a particularly high workrate.

2/3s of young adults in California don't know how to swim (ie they haven't been taught/had the opportunity). We have plenty of beaches and swim clubs though.
When I was a child, 100% of children swam at school. Do you agree that in this context the swimming population will have substantially higher talent than the non-swimming population? A comparison with other countries is irrelevant, I've only used GB data, though it's quite possible that children are no longer all taught to swim at school.

You're comparing the 100 split on a 400 L/C freestyle with a S/C fly split on an IM? You're also taking it beyond the pale when you don't take into account how the swimmers pace those races. I don't see how comparing a split which on it's own also happens to be the sport's blue riband event versus a short course 50 fly that is essentially a marginal event swum with much less frequency, by fewer swimmers, and not often at peak meets with rested athletes.
In fact there are more times in the database for SC 50 fly compared to LC 100 free - 20k vs 13k. However I agree it's not fair, and I've been trying to work out why. I think what is probably the case is that county championships tend to run the two events as SC, and it only becomes LC at regional level, and that is probably the reason for the higher percentage of good times in the LC 100 free vs SC 50 fly rankings, one is probably populated with swims from lower level meets compared to the other.

Anyway, you clearly don't agree that Pereira's swim in that youtube video shows an unusual level of apparent ease of swimming that time for someone who doesn't appear to have obvious talents such as unusual size or workrate. As I said above, I would be interested to know what you think the nature of his talent is that allows him to swim in such a way so I can understand what it is that other people lack that makes them unable to do it.

[Gina]

With regards to Nystrand's training, there was a little bit on collegeswimming.com where one person said he only does X amount of training (very low amount) and another who said he'd done a lot more. A little quote from the thread World Cup Berlin - sick swimming... 'Seen Nystrand train and it certainly was more than 3km he was doing! I heard his coach say that he goes weeks of up to 70km. She also says there are weeks where he does only go 30km, but in reality neither is an absolute truth.'

[2.tso]

i spoke with a coach of a well known swimmer about 8 weeks ago he told me oh yea i will tell you what x did, 4 years ago but never what he did last week! unless you hear it from the person or their coach its albsoloute balls

[Woodward]

Yes, if the talent takes an obvious form, such as being unusually large, or having an unusual capacity to do physical work, then it does provide understanding, but my whole point, really, is that the nature of Pereira's talent is not immediately obvious, at least not to me. If your criteria for "immediately obvious" consists of height and stroke rate then it wouldn't be.


What do you think is the nature of his talent that allows him to swim a time that so few people can? He isn't particularly big, but nor does he appear to swim with a particularly high workrate. He's not tall but he's not slightly built either. He's a powerful swimmer. He has great strength in his lower body. He's the best breaststroker of the top ranked IM'ers. I have just watched the video of his WR. His upper torso clears higher out of the water than the other swimmers. Perhaps this is what makes his stroke look "easy" by comparison. But to me this is probably as much attributable to the power of his dolphin as it his technique. The body's position along the water is important and powerful swimmers don't necessarily need the frantic turnover to take advantage. But again fly is his "weakest" stroke. Cseh and Lochte are capable of matching his opening fly even though it's not their strongest leg either. Who knows how Phelps could push it.


When I was a child, 100% of children swam at school. 100% of children at your school or in the U.K.?
100% of British youth can swim? That type of figure not only blows away numbers in states like California and Florida but Australia too. It's a wonder then that the UK hasn't dominated swimming in Europe and even bested the U.S. and Australia in the pool. I also assume by "swimming" you don't mean treading with an egg-beat or the doggie paddle.



Do you agree that in this context the swimming population will have substantially higher talent than the non-swimming population? I would readily agree. It's hard to differentiate general population against swimming population with 100% of British youth participating at some point.

Although often swimmers that don't have much success in swimming at ages 8 to 12 often go on to become great. Especially male swimmers.


A comparison with other countries is irrelevant,
I've only used GB data I feel that it was entirely irrelevant regardless of the origin of the data because I don't think the comparison between these two events is useful.


Anyway, you clearly don't agree that Pereira's swim in that youtube video shows an unusual level of apparent ease of swimming that time for someone who doesn't appear to have obvious talents such as unusual size or workrate. I believe it's exceptional for an athlete but not as unusual for a top level swimmer as you seem to believe. It may not be the ideal archetype but Alice Mills, Erik Vendt, a handful of recent female Japanese backstrokers. etc. are a few examples of athletes that seem to do well with smoother work rates and smaller statures. I've seen Mills do a 100 fly that was incredibly smooth. Esposito and Hickman are small but I've seen races where their stroke/lap count is on par with much taller swimmers.


As I said above, I would be interested to know what you think the nature of his talent is that allows him to swim in such a way so I can understand what it is that other people lack that makes them unable to do it. It's hard to accurately account for all the variables that contribute to an athlete's success from the outside even when they possess "obvious" advantages such as height. But three of the most likely are his power, his stamina, and his fitness capacity.

[NotVeryFast]

He's not tall but he's not slightly built either. He's a powerful swimmer.
The stats I found were 6' 1" tall and 77kg. This seems a very light weight to me (for that height), and from what I've seen of him he doesn't look unusually muscular at all.

He has great strength in his lower body. He's the best breaststroker of the top ranked IM'ers. I have just watched the video of his WR. His upper torso clears higher out of the water than the other swimmers. Perhaps this is what makes his stroke look "easy" by comparison. But to me this is probably as much attributable to the power of his dolphin as it his technique. The body's position along the water is important and powerful swimmers don't necessarily need the frantic turnover to take advantage.
It's possible he has unusual natural buoyancy, like one of the swimmers covered in Four Champions One Gold Medal. I can't remember which one of them it was, but the author says he floated like a cork which gave him a big advantage over other swimmers.

I agree that he must somehow be getting a heck of a lot from his dolphin action because when you look at what he does off the wall after his backstroke turn, he takes a very small number of long slow dolphin kicks that propel him very fast a long way down the pool before he surfaces.

But again fly is his "weakest" stroke. Cseh and Lochte are capable of matching his opening fly even though it's not their strongest leg either. Who knows how Phelps could push it.
Phelps and Cseh, though, don't look anything like as effortless when they do it. Phelps in particular makes it look very hard work, when you see him from underwater you can really see the tension in his muscles. Yes, Phelps is a great swimmer, arguably the greatest ever, but I've always explained a lot of his performance in my own mind by him simply appearing to be able to output more power than his opponents over the duration of his races. Lochte looks the most effortless to me of the three you mentioned.

100% of children at your school or in the U.K.? 100% of British youth can swim? That type of figure not only blows away numbers in states like California and Florida but Australia too. It's a wonder then that the UK hasn't dominated swimming in Europe and even bested the U.S. and Australia in the pool. I also assume by "swimming" you don't mean treading with an egg-beat or the doggie paddle.

When I was a child I believe it was mandatory throughout the UK in primary schools, I'm not sure exactly what age range, but I think all kids swam once a week for several years during term time. What they achieved with that would depend on their level of talent, and certainly in my school, there was a strong link between displaying talent in these sessions and going on to join a competitive swimming club. I think there are many reasons for the UK's relative lack of success in global terms, but getting kids exposed to the sport was something we probably did better than many other countries.

I believe it's exceptional for an athlete but not as unusual for a top level swimmer as you seem to believe. It may not be the ideal archetype but Alice Mills, Erik Vendt, a handful of recent female Japanese backstrokers. etc. are a few examples of athletes that seem to do well with smoother work rates and smaller statures. I've seen Mills do a 100 fly that was incredibly smooth. Esposito and Hickman are small but I've seen races where their stroke/lap count is on par with much taller swimmers.
These people are all great swimmers, for sure, but having rewatched some recording of races with Vendt and Hickman in, yes, they swim with wonderful smoothness and precision, but they do use high stroke rates to compensate for their lack of height, so don't appear effortless as such.

It's hard to accurately account for all the variables that contribute to an athlete's success from the outside even when they possess "obvious" advantages such as height. But three of the most likely are his power, his stamina, and his fitness capacity.
This, really, is the crux of my original point. Power, stamina, and fitness are not things that give rise to an appearance of effortlessness, they just allow someone to look like they're able to work really hard for a sustained period of time. If my reaction to seeing Pereira's swim was an impression that he has superior power, stamina and fitness, then I would never have made the observation I did.

[Woodward]

It appears that I will not be able to answer your question.

I disagree about Thiago. I think that listed weight is likely outdated.