European Short Course Championships

[Silver Fox]

Where can I find the GB squad list please ?

[Linny]

The LEN European Short Course championships (25m) take place in Debrechen, Hungary from 13 to 16 December 2007.
The British squad comprises:
Charlotte Barnes (University of Bath / Mark Skimming)
Emma Bird (Nova Centurion / Bill Furniss)
Sophie Caul (Co Birmingham / Adam Ruckwood)
Rebecca Cooke (Co Glasgow / Stephen Hill)
Georgia Davies (Swansea Performance / Bud McAllister)
Terri Dunning (Co Birmingham / Adam Ruckwood)
Debbie Hall (Co Sheffield / Russ Barber)
Georgina Heyn (Ealing / Dave Heathcock)
Karen Lee (Bristol North / Kim Swanwick)
Louise Pate (Heart of Midlothian / Phil Potter)
Cassie Patten (Stockport Metro / Sean Kelly)
Keri-Anne Payne (Stockport Metro / Sean Kelly)
Katy Sexton (Portsmouth Northsea / Graham Wardell)
Adam Brown (Hatfield / Chris Nesbit)
Christopher Cook (Co Newcastle / Ian Oliver)
Daniel Coombs (Chorley Marlins / Ian Turner)
Todd Cooper (Stirling Swimming / Chris Martin)
Daniel Fogg (Loughborough University / Kevin Renshaw)
James Kirton (Co Sheffield / Russ Barber)
Marco Loughran (Guildford City / Chris Nesbit)
Andrew Mayor (Co Newcastle / Ian Oliver)
Mark McKenna (Co Manchester Aquatics / Paul Remmonds & Mark Lappin)
Stephen Mellor (Stockport Metro / Brooks Teale)
Dean Milwain (Loughborough Univeristy / Ian Turner)
Xavier Mohammed (Bexley / Shelly Camy)
Owen Morgan (Cranleigh)
Lewis Smith (Warrender / Ian Wright)
Peter Thompson (Middlesbro ASC / Les Green)
Charles Turner (Ealing / Dave Heathcock)
Christopher Watkinson (Loughborough Univeristy / Ben Titley)
Richard Webb (University of Bath / Mark Skimming)

[Silver Fox]

Many thanks I knew someone would know

[Dunc]

I hear that our very own Blob will be in attendance.

Perhaps keeping a watchful eye on the infamous Lane4.

Who will keep an eye on him?

[Juicy Lucy]

I hear that our very own Blob will be in attendance.



And not just in attendance. I've heard that he's been invited along.

[NotVeryFast]

From the information currently on the BBC web site it seems that unlike last year, they will not be showing this event live on an interactive TV channel. It may be too late to get them to change their minds, but if anyone doesn't have access to Eurosport and would like the BBC to show this event, I suggest contacting them via this page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/swimming/6155504.stm).

[2.tso]

From the information currently on the BBC web site it seems that unlike last year, they will not be showing this event live on an interactive TV channel. It may be too late to get them to change their minds, but if anyone doesn't have access to Eurosport and would like the BBC to show this event, I suggest contacting them via this page (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/swimming/6155504.stm).

like that will make any difference!

[Linny]

like that will make any difference!"Every little bit helps" said the lady who peed in the sea.

Words of wisdom from my mum.

[lane4]

I hear that our very own Blob will be in attendance. Perhaps keeping a watchful eye on the infamous Lane4. Who will keep an eye on him? I'm sure we'll get along just swimmingly.

[YankeeDoodle]

Anyone else from Swimclub going on this? Should be a great meet. How can British Swimming justify no short course funding at all?

[lane4]

Anyone else from Swimclub going on this? Should be a great meet. How can British Swimming justify no short course funding at all? There are a few from here going. Not sure what you mean exactly by no short course funding from British Swimming (?) but I suppose you may be referring to the fact that ALL the performance funding British Swimming has is issued by UK Sport on the basis that it will help to produce medals in the World LC Championships and the Olympic Games. In regard to the European SC next week I'm pretty certain that GB's participation is being 100% funded by British Swimming.

[Gina]

I'm going and I can't wait after my swims this past weekend. A 26.0 and 2.02 in the 50 and 200 free were PBs and the 100 was just off ... 57.2 but I went out far too slow and came back fast (28.2/29.0). The 200 was similar to the 100. I went out in a 60 and came back in a 62 which shocked a few of my teammates and my coach.

Fingers crossed it will snow and I'll be a happy bunny!

[2.tso]

i am sure you will swim fast gina

[Stevie_k]

Brilliant Gina!!!

hope you swim even better on the day.

GOOD LUCK!

[ringer]

Here's a link to the provisional entry list

http://www.swimrankings.net/files/2007-Entries-Debrecen.pdf

The competition is going to be fierce; SC in Europe is pretty HOT!!!!!!!

[Linny]

Here's a link to the provisional entry list

http://www.swimrankings.net/files/2007-Entries-Debrecen.pdf

The competition is going to be fierce; SC in Europe is pretty HOT!!!!!!!Ringer, the start lists are on omegatiming (http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2007/debrecen2007/index.htm)!

I'm interested to know why the lists you referred to though say on the guys lists - 17 and over, and on the girls - 15 and over. Is this a meet condition?

[2.tso]

I'm interested to know why the lists you referred to though say on the guys lists - 17 and over, and on the girls - 15 and over. Is this a meet condition?

coul djust be the computer programme stating that the youngest biy there is 17 and youngest girl is 15 but i was wondering that myself!!!

[ringer]

Ringer, the start lists are on omegatiming (http://www.omegatiming.com/swimming/racearchives/2007/debrecen2007/index.htm)!

I'm interested to know why the lists you referred to though say on the guys lists - 17 and over, and on the girls - 15 and over. Is this a meet condition?


Thanks for that link Linny...much neater.
When I came across the eurorankings link the omega site hadn't received its upload.

As for the meet conditions.... I'm only a bit of an anorak .....so "pass" on that one!!!!! :)

[2.tso]

looking forward to see how andy bree does after picking up a silver in 2003

[lane4]

I'm interested to know why the lists you referred to though say on the guys lists - 17 and over, and on the girls - 15 and over. Is this a meet condition?
Yes, it's a condition of all LEN events (and sensibly, age on the year of course ;) )

[Linny]

Yes, it's a condition of all LEN events (and sensibly, age on the year of course ;) )Thanks lane4, I knew you would know.


What is more, thinking about it, it is obvious that they should do this, what with even the EJCs being 17+ and 15+ (age at end of year)! :p

[Mac]

A very good 22.18 50 fc from Owen Morgan to make it through to the semis!

[colonelhall]

Looks like another batch of very mediocre times from the Brits.

[lane4]

Looks like another batch of very mediocre times from the Brits. Do you include those who set lifetime bests (especially without tapering or shaving) in that sweeping statement? Perhaps you could be more specific with who you mean was mediocre?

[NotVeryFast]

Looks like another batch of very mediocre times from the Brits.
We can't expect world class times when we've sent our lower ranked swimmers to the meet, so we have to judge the performances on how people have done by their own standards. Going from times on swimrankings, a couple of examples:
Lewis Smith - best time on swimrankings for 400 free is 3:50.63, today he did 3:47.86. Seems good to me.
Terri Dunning - best on swimrankings for 200 fly is 2:08.28, today she did 2:07.46, and might go faster again in the final.
There may well be more examples, if someone is that way inclined they could look up times for each swim so far and post a full list of who did PBs.

[2.tso]

it dont matter how they swim we have to support these kids

[Breaststrokemum]

it dont matter how they swim we have to support these kids

What a daft thing to say! Of course it matters how they swim! They appear to acquitting themselves very well.

BM

[2.tso]

they are doing well, i was stating that no matter what they are there representing the country so we should support them!

[Cagri]

Looks like another batch of very mediocre times from the Brits.

Still better than us Turks :(

[ringer]

This is seen as a development meet and in that context the swims this morning are encouraging....none more so than Katy Sexton 59.54 100 back time which appears to be lifetime 2nd best time.!!!!!!

[colonelhall]

I agree that some of these swimmers are near their best, but they are 'mediocre' compared to the sensational times that we have seen in Europe and the States recently.
And yes I agree that some of our guys are not shaved and may be swimming tired, but that always seems to be the case. Looking back at the past few Olympics, we don't seem to have a great record for P.B.s when it counts.
I know that many of our big names are absent, but I don't think that the French and the Dutch are going to be worrying about what they are up to.

[2.tso]

our very own gina swam well this morning 2 tenths under her qualifying time!

[NotVeryFast]

New GB record for Terri Dunning in the 200 fly final.

[NotVeryFast]

I've only just noticed we can watch it live on the web:

http://www.debrecen2007.com/?pag=WEBCASTING

[Cagri]

our very own gina swam well this morning 2 tenths under her qualifying time!

What's her real name? I looked for a British Gina but never found any.

Well done Gina!

[Stevie_k]

OH DOLLOPS i wanted to see it all. Ive just got in from milton keynes in time for the 5:45, i was hoping that was the first session.

Im gutted ive missed Gina's swim :CRY:

Well done Gina, does anybody know if she is swimming again or if its repeated anywhere.

[NotVeryFast]

Well done Gina, does anybody know if she is swimming again or if its repeated anywhere.
She'll be in the 50 free on Sunday.

[Stevie_k]

Excellent, thanks mate

[Cagri]

By the way we already had two world records and one championship record today. It's not that boring :)

[ringer]

Nothing mediocre about Katy Sexton's 100 back semi final time......a lifetime best 59.01.

[colonelhall]

Good to see Katy Sexton back on form. She's had a few difficult years, but seems to have stuck to it. Well done. Good swims from the fly girls too!

[SplashNblub]

Do you include those who set lifetime bests (especially without tapering or shaving) in that sweeping statement? Perhaps you could be more specific with who you mean was mediocre?
It has been a bit of a mixed bag so far and your bigger picture/Olympic trials speech was a classic. Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved. It is as ever lions led by mediocre management donkeys. If the European Short Course Championships is seen as a development meet & does not warrant proper preparation what does? Why bother wearing the nice new shiny suits when you are sticking tired bodies in them. British Swimming has to understand that Short Course is far more appealing to the general public than Long Course as they are nearer to the action and there are twice as many turns. How often do we even begin to approach the atmosphere here at any UK meet?

[lane4]

Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?

It is as ever lions led by mediocre management donkeys. Easy to say hiding behind a mask online. Why not stand up and say that to said management if you really want to make a difference? You really would not have anything to lose would you? No, it's not lions led by donkeys, rather it's just people with different opinions of how and when to be at their very best to you. There are 30 swimmers doing 30 different preparations for this meet based on exactly what they are trying to get out of it. For some, this is their Olympic Games so I guess it's all or nothing, for some this is a learning curve meet of senior international swimming where their own individual result is secondary to the experience and lessons learnt from being here, racing, and watching what's going on. For others, it's a step on the ladder to greater things in weeks/months/years to come. You are certainly not in a position to dictate that all these people are right or wrong, and nor am I. Let each person prepare how they want to and we'll see how they get on.

If the European Short Course Championships is seen as a development meet & does not warrant proper preparation what does? I think you know the answer to this.

British Swimming has to understand that Short Course is far more appealing to the general public than Long Course as they are nearer to the action and there are twice as many turns. In recent times in the UK, Short Course has wrongly been portrayed as the devil's idea of swimming. We all know that there is nothing wrong with swimming short course and agree that it can be very exciting. However, a lot of people want to make the Olympic team more than they want to swim their very best at a short course meet, and to do that they will need to swim their very best long course so they simply prioritise that instead.

How often do we even begin to approach the atmosphere here at any UK meet?How often do regular Hungarian meets have this atmosphere?

[selkie]

At the end of the day, it's not the size of the course but the attitude of the swimmers and teams involved that determine how exciting a meet can be.

NCAAs are one of the two most exciting meets in the world every year not for the size of the pool, but because the college teams bring such passion to the event, and because whether you finish 9th or 16th in the consolation finals really matters when the team score are added up.

You could hold the meet in a 30 meter course carved out of a duck pond and it would still be a far more exciting event than the typical World Cup stop.

[ringer]

Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?

Easy to say hiding behind a mask online. Why not stand up and say that to said management if you really want to make a difference? You really would not have anything to lose would you? No, it's not lions led by donkeys, rather it's just people with different opinions of how and when to be at their very best to you. There are 30 swimmers doing 30 different preparations for this meet based on exactly what they are trying to get out of it. For some, this is their Olympic Games so I guess it's all or nothing, for some this is a learning curve meet of senior international swimming where their own individual result is secondary to the experience and lessons learnt from being here, racing, and watching what's going on. For others, it's a step on the ladder to greater things in weeks/months/years to come. You are certainly not in a position to dictate that all these people are right or wrong, and nor am I. Let each person prepare how they want to and we'll see how they get on.

I think you know the answer to this.

In recent times in the UK, Short Course has wrongly been portrayed as the devil's idea of swimming. We all know that there is nothing wrong with swimming short course and agree that it can be very exciting. However, a lot of people want to make the Olympic team more than they want to swim their very best at a short course meet, and to do that they will need to swim their very best long course so they simply prioritise that instead.

How often do regular Hungarian meets have this atmosphere?

Another decisive and informative post from "our man" on the inside.
(and an extremely good 400 IM heat swim from Lewis Smith. :fingers: )

[Dunc]

I've only just noticed we can watch it live on the web:

http://www.debrecen2007.com/?pag=WEBCASTING
Anyone have problems with this?

I normally go in via yahoo (higher quality & full screen), but that wasn't working for anything but an audio broadcast. Trying wwiTV gives poor quality and a 3x4" screen, and TVants has stopped working for both French and British Eurosport.

Anyway, my point is that I can't get the LEN version to work at all. Does anyone have any ideas?

[Dunc]

Typical.

Now the broadcast is over I've discovered Coolstreaming, that works.

[Linny]

Does anyone have any ideas?Forget the computer and watch Eurosport on Sky. ;)

[Backstroker88]

She'll be in the 50 free on Sunday.

Gina (Georgina) is also swimming in a relay tomorrow...
I contacted her yesterday and she was pleased with her swim- said it was a life time best

WELL DONE GINA :)

X

[doublexpresso]

Two things -
Why was there no GB 4 x 50 women's relay?
Does anyone know what happened to the 3rd heat of the womens 800? Eurosport cut out and there is nothing on the Omega Timing Results page?
:confused:
(Cassie Patten and Rebecca Cooke were to be swimming with Spohie Huber of France Alessia Filippi of Italy so it would have been a good one).

[NotVeryFast]

Does anyone know what happened to the 3rd heat of the womens 800? Eurosport cut out and there is nothing on the Omega Timing Results page?
:confused:
(Cassie Patten and Rebecca Cooke were to be swimming with Spohie Huber of France Alessia Filippi of Italy so it would have been a good one).
The final heat will be swum this evening as a final of sorts. They don't make them swim it twice with a separate final. However, it will take a good swim to beat the 8:17 that was swum in the first heat!

[2.tso]

i would say there will be atleast 1 world record today, the female 4x50 thats gona go

[2.tso]

milo cavic will break 50 for his 100 fly!!! he is shaved and feeling good!!!

[doublexpresso]

This is what the British Swimming site has reported:

On the first day of competition team GB achieved one British Record and 14 PBs

[Stevie_k]

Im so p**sed off i missed Gina's swim!

[lane4]

(and an extremely good 400 IM heat swim from Lewis Smith. :fingers: )I will have to check but it may have been a Scottish Senior Record as well.

On the first day of competition team GB achieved one British Record and 14 PBs All very mediocre to some like Mr Hall though I'm afraid.

[selkie]

Are they actually recognizing 4x50 world records now, or are those races still listed as 'world bests'?

[Juicy Lucy]

Seeing Terri Dunning’s 200m butterfly short-course time of 2:06.54 reminds me of just how good Samantha Purvis was.

Her 200m long course time of 2:11.97, set at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics, was outstanding. I still consider her to be Britain’s best ever female 200m fly specialist.

Both girls lived and trained in Birmingham, so we win all round!

JL

[Dunc]

Im so p**sed off i missed Gina's swim!
Stevie, yahoo are showing reruns of the highlights, you could try looking there (btw, to answer your previous question her surname is Heyn). It's at http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/swimming/

I will have to check but it may have been a Scottish Senior Record as well.

All very mediocre to some like Mr Hall though I'm afraid.
Hall's real name is a mediocre Dobermann.

[2.tso]

Are they actually recognizing 4x50 world records now, or are those races still listed as 'world bests'?

they can list them as what ever they want but they are world records either way, on the omega site it has the wr beside the what would be world record time!!!

[Linny]

Are they actually recognizing 4x50 world records now, or are those races still listed as 'world bests'?Almost certain, they're not. Something for 2009 perhaps?

[2.tso]

jesus! laslo just went 3.59.33 400 im!

[Dunc]

If you are watching this on your PC, I've evaluated each presentation method.

The Yahoo one is far better quality even if it is commentated by 'Dreeeew Gorrdaan'.
Jmaes (Parrack) gives a good account of himself.
I posted the link earlier.

[selkie]

As a fan, I'd love to see Laslo v. Lochte in the IMs at SC Worlds next year with both of them rested and at the top of their game.

[lane4]

milo cavic will break 50 for his 100 fly!!! he is shaved and feeling good!!!Not as good as you thought he was though it would seem.

[selkie]

For the viewers, is Duje Draganja still wearing his lucky swim cap at least in the heats, or has he finally been coerced into wearing a Croatian one on a regular basis?

[2.tso]

Not as good as you thought he was though it would seem.

he was aiming for the 49, mind you his best being .02 away from breaking the 50. barrier he could have done it

[colonelhall]

Private Doberman just clocked sub minute for the 50 free in the Fort Baxter Swimming Championships. An astonishing 16 seconds under his best time!

Unfortunately his performance was overshadowed by the goings on at the Europeans and in Baltimore. Still, we managed to make a packet on the spread.

Bilko

[swimmer]

Anyone have problems with this?

I normally go in via yahoo (higher quality & full screen), but that wasn't working for anything but an audio broadcast. Trying wwiTV gives poor quality and a 3x4" screen, and TVants has stopped working for both French and British Eurosport.

Anyway, my point is that I can't get the LEN version to work at all. Does anyone have any ideas?


I can't get the LEN version or the yahoo one to work? I have a mac, anyone got any ideas why it refuses to play?

[Woodward]

I wish that replays from the webcasts were made available on demand.

I would like to be able to watch Filippi's 800 free where she thought it was the end of the race at the 750 mark, costing her the ER.

[Dunc]

I can't get the LEN version or the yahoo one to work? I have a mac, anyone got any ideas why it refuses to play?
I can't answer regarding Mac idiosyncracies,
but all transmissions are intermittant.

Yahoo, LEN, Eurosport and Coolstreaming had nothing this morning, and up to 5' ago I had to watch one one and listen on another.

Ooops, it's just started on yahoo - got to go....

[colonelhall]

Just tried http://www.debrecen2007.com/?pag=WEBCASTING and swimming is on. Looks like the 1500m.

I'm using a Mac and Firefox

[Backstroker88]

Gina went 24.8 in the fc leg of the medley relay..... a very fast time for her!
well done x

[NotVeryFast]

I can'rt answer regarding Mac indiosyncracies,
but all transmissions are intermittant.

Yahoo, LEN, Eurosport and Coolstreaming had nothing this morning, and uop to 5' ago I had to watch one one and listen on another.

Ooops, it's just started on yahoo - got to go....
The only one I could watch before was the LEN one, but the yahoo one is working for me too, now, and I agree it's much better quality than the LEN one. Have you found a way to record it?

[Dunc]

No, haven't tried to record it.

I believe that Firefox would allow me to, though Internet Explorer has limitations.

Also Yahoo has quite a good commentator in James Parrack (a good Cheltenham lad).

I do hate their mispronunciation of any foreign names though (especially Droooow).

[doublexpresso]

Gina went 24.8 in the fc leg of the medley relay..... a very fast time for her!
well done x

I am so pleased for her - fantastic reaction time for a relay - very good swims from the other girls as well.

[NotVeryFast]

Gina went 24.8 in the fc leg of the medley relay..... a very fast time for her!
well done x
I noticed that as well, very well done Gina, hope she can do it again in the individual event tomorrow.

If anyone else wants to record Eurosport from the Yahoo website, I've just tried WM Recorder (http://www.wmrecorder.com/) and it seems to work.

[Cagri]

German girls broke the world record for 4x50 medley relay, 0.77 faster.
I looked for the British team to see Gİna but I guess they didn't make it to the finals.

[Dunc]

Very useful....and it works (for up to 10').

Thanks for the info VF.

[Linny]

What were all the breaststroke DQs for?

Can't see on the tele.

Ta

[lane4]

What were all the breaststroke DQs for?

Can't see on the tele.

Ta
Some said illegal turns, some said for illegal dolphin kicks.

[Gina]

Wow what a meet! Quite a few World Records, European and British too! Lots of PBs for the GB guys and I got to meet some swimclub posters out there.

To the person who wasn't very impressed with our times, I'm going to point you to the exit. ALL the top swimmers (1st and 2nd ranked in ever event) were absent from our team. This meet gave a lot of swimmers their first senior cap and a taste of international competition. I PBed on all of my swims. My 100 free wasn't what I wanted but the 50 free in the relay was a shock and the individual was a massive PB of 25.55. I just missed out on the semis by 0.06!!!

It was a good atmosphere in the GB camp as we were treated as adults and were given quite a bit of freedom. The only problem was the food which was pretty much the same for lunch and dinner EVERY SINGLE DAY!

[Cagri]

Welcome back Gina!
I dont think anyone is targeting you swimmers, they must be angry about the swimming federation for not bringing the celebrities. Since most you of you people PBed, then everybody should be happy about it. We'd like to hear more, wont you write soemthing to your blog?

[Gina]

Picking the 'B' team has inspired a lot of people including me. It's vital that the second tier swimmers are given a chance to push the top ones otherwise the standards won't move on.

I will update my blog in due time with some pictures. I pretty much watched all the swimming and it was awesome. The support for Hungarian swimmers is huge. Every single one of them and I was so chuffed to see the top European swimmers walk right in front of me to the podium.

[Breaststrokemum]

It was a good atmosphere in the GB camp as we were treated as adults

At 23, I would jolly well hope so! :)

Great swims Gina.......

BM

[colonelhall]

Congratulations Gina and the rest of the team on some good swimming. I still feel that our policy of not peaking the top swimmers for meets such as this could be a mistake. By passing on opportunities to test our best on a more regular basis we may be putting too much pressure on them come China 08. I was full of optimism for the last Olympics and sorely disappointed by the results.
This is just an opinion and I will love to be able to eat my words this time next year when we are celebrating a host of PBs and a clutch of medals. With the money that has gone into British Swimming recently, I would be expecting to compete on even terms with the likes of France and Germany. Let's see how we do.
Anyway, top marks to all those 'B' string swimmers who are making a breakthrough. I know how much work has gone into this.

[NotVeryFast]

I still feel that our policy of not peaking the top swimmers for meets such as this could be a mistake. By passing on opportunities to test our best on a more regular basis we may be putting too much pressure on them come China 08.
I don't think it was ever really explained at the time what the logic was behind the policy of swimmers 1 & 2 doing World SC and 3 & 4 doing Euro SC. If you think about it, though, swimmers 3 & 4 still have a chance of being selected for Beijing, so by doing it this way, no matter which of the top 4 for each event end up being selected for Beijing, they will at least have had experience of a major international meet before they arrive at the Olympics.

Gina : Congrats on some great swims. You're obviously one of those people who thrives on the big occasion rather than crumbling under pressure.

[Stevie_k]

I PBed on all of my swims. My 100 free wasn't what I wanted but the 50 free in the relay was a shock and the individual was a massive PB of 25.55. I just missed out on the semis by 0.06!!!


BRILLIANT Gina!!!

Im so crushed i missed your swim, i was stuck in milton keynes forgot to set the sky plus.

I taped every session apart from the first one on eurosport.

Were you in any of the others?

If not do you have it recorded?

Id love to see.

NVF do you want me to put it all on disk for you still, ill have to do it when i break up, im off friday. I still have to work out how to put it onto dvd and i wont get time in the evenings until friday.

[colonelhall]

Some finals on youtube, including the 800m

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7P8PDOq7J7s

[lane4]

Congratulations Gina and the rest of the team on some good swimming. Pleased to read that you now think the GB team was good instead of mediocre. What changed your mind?

[Woodward]

Some finals on youtube, including the 800m

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7P8PDOq7J7s

Thanks. I better watch before it's removed.

[colonelhall]

"Pleased to read that you now think the GB team was good instead of mediocre. What changed your mind?"

I think that I have made my point. I haven't changed my mind. By the way, how many medals did we get?

[lane4]

By the way, how many medals did we get?How many do you think we should have got with a team picked from swimmers ranked between 3rd and 8th in Britain for their event?

[colonelhall]

"How many do you think we should have got with a team picked from swimmers ranked between 3rd and 8th in Britain for their event?"

None

Sorry if I have not made myself clear on this one.

[lane4]

Sorry if I have not made myself clear on this one.

Well, when you said this:Congratulations Gina and the rest of the team on some good swimming..

...it seemed rather at odds with your earlier statement:Looks like another batch of very mediocre times from the Brits.thus creating a lack of clarity in your meaning.

I still feel that our policy of not peaking the top swimmers for meets such as this could be a mistake. By passing on opportunities to test our best on a more regular basis we may be putting too much pressure on them come China 08.What you'll find is that most of our top swimmers, including most of those who were in Debrecen, are aiming to peak at the Olympic Trials at the end of March instead of this and other similar meets. By staging the Trials just before the World SC we will then have a fully prepared team for that meet - which will hopefully partly satisfy your wish to see them tested on a more regular basis.

[Linny]

"How many do you think we should have got with a team picked from swimmers ranked between 3rd and 8th in Britain for their event?"

None

Sorry if I have not made myself clear on this one.Are you saying that, whilst you can appreciate that those swimmers who went swam well and produced good performances, they were mediocre in the field they were placed in which was pretty much the best in Europe?

If that's it then I don't think anyone would argue that you are not right although there were some good performances even in that field.

And yet, I kinda liked the selection policies for the World and European Short Course Championships. I think they were good for lots of reasons although I suspect that they would have been quite different had we not had the World's in England. It does worry me a little bit though that it would not have been the positive experience that Gina describes if all the European nations treated major meets like we do and I still don't get this "I'm not shaved" thing. Why not? How is this different to "I''m not trying?" except that it is condoned by the coaches. Can you only shave twice a year without jeopardising your shave for the Olympic Games?

The other thing is why DO we do everything so differently to our European neighbours who clearly value the short course season and the results obtained during it (Cseh had such incredibly smooth armpits, I reckon he might have even waxed). They too surely value Olympic achievement most highly and yet don't devalue other performances as simply steps along the way to a podium that hardly anyone will ever get to anyway.

Just thinking outloud you understand.

[Taxiandbank]

Taper or not to taper. Can you only taper a maximum of twice a year? Trials and main event. Contrast to Liz Johnson (SB6) and coach Billy Pye having a trial taper recently for the relatively unimportant Wales Disability Championships. They got it right, Liz sets a WR and the pair know what works for the trials and the paralympics.

Just thinking out loud.:)

[selkie]

You don't get more than twice a year to taper if you want to be absolute best when it really counts. And you also need to take out the calendar planner and work backwards to see when you need to be in heaviest training to nail that taper. If a heavy training cycle is called for at the same time when there's a B priority meet, then training trumps that meet.

From a rest of the world perspective, teams like the Germans and Swedes, and to some extent the French, tend to over-emphasize the continental meets at the expense of the world level meets. Based on how they swam in 2006, the Germans should have done far better in Melbourne than they did. Only Leibs/Lurtz seemed to have the spark. Laure was the only French swimmer who seemed to really swim to potential in Australia.

You pick, you choose, and figure out what the goal really is. The other meets are a learning experience, and because in-season meets are fun and help keep you mentally on your game.

[Bazza]

Selkie/Woodward in particular, I wonder if you can offer some perspective on Randall Bal. He is someone who stands out from the US in so far as he is willing to travel the world cup circuit swimming SCM for several weeks - is the Olympics not high on his agenda?

What about Nystrand, Veldhuis, Pereira?

[SplashNblub]

:devil: Sorry this looks abit messy but was trying to quote Lane 4 with where he had quoted me left in and could not manage it. Anyone know how?

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by SplashNblub http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/images/freshbluetemplate/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=111517#post111517)
Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.
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Lane 4: Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?

:devil: Splash reply: I did not realise I was being that controversial! I apologise for upsetting you. Common sense really. All swimmers have left at the end of their careers are cups, medals and PB's. At a rough estimate not tapering or shaving will add a few tenths of a second to sprint times and up to 20-30 seconds to distance times. It is not realistic to taper for Speedo league and every club meet but especially when competing at this level all our swimmers should have been given every chance to perform at their best rather than risk demoralisation. As you will know one swimmer missed out on a medal by 100th of a second.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by SplashNblub http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/images/freshbluetemplate/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=111517#post111517)
It is as ever lions led by mediocre management donkeys.
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Lane 4: Easy to say hiding behind a mask online. Why not stand up and say that to said management if you really want to make a difference? You really would not have anything to lose would you? No, it's not lions led by donkeys, rather it's just people with different opinions of how and when to be at their very best to you. There are 30 swimmers doing 30 different preparations for this meet based on exactly what they are trying to get out of it. For some, this is their Olympic Games so I guess it's all or nothing, for some this is a learning curve meet of senior international swimming where their own individual result is secondary to the experience and lessons learnt from being here, racing, and watching what's going on. For others, it's a step on the ladder to greater things in weeks/months/years to come. You are certainly not in a position to dictate that all these people are right or wrong, and nor am I. Let each person prepare how they want to and we'll see how they get on.

:devil: Splash reply: Why do you presume that first of all I am not part of/or close to said management and that I am not already doing as you suggest? After all Bill has now gone. Well of course everyone's preparation is different - but I wonder how many swimmers prepare as they would really like to compared with how their coaches like to prepare them? I agree of course that swimmers learn a huge amount at these meets but not tapering is just silly.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by SplashNblub http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/images/freshbluetemplate/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=111517#post111517)
If the European Short Course Championships is seen as a development meet & does not warrant proper preparation what does?
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Lane 4: I think you know the answer to this.

:devil: Splash reply: The Olympics and their trials of course - every four years . However, as any sports pychologist will tell you, the greatest sportsmen live for and in the moment - Tiger Woods, Lewis Hamilton and Federer spring to mind as great examples of this. Focusing constantly on the 'jam tomorrow' horizon can lead to tripping over your own feet. Win today's race to become tomorrow's champion.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by SplashNblub http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/images/freshbluetemplate/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=111517#post111517)
British Swimming has to understand that Short Course is far more appealing to the general public than Long Course as they are nearer to the action and there are twice as many turns.
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Lane 4: In recent times in the UK, Short Course has wrongly been portrayed as the devil's idea of swimming. We all know that there is nothing wrong with swimming short course and agree that it can be very exciting. However, a lot of people want to make the Olympic team more than they want to swim their very best at a short course meet, and to do that they will need to swim their very best long course so they simply prioritise that instead.

:devil: Splash reply: Agreed. Short Course Champs in UK will return I am sure. I suspect most swimmers want to be as good at both as they can be - they are not mutually exclusive at all but some swimmers are of course better at turns and others at the swimming bit.

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset ;"> Originally Posted by SplashNblub http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/images/freshbluetemplate/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?p=111517#post111517)
How often do we even begin to approach the atmosphere here at any UK meet?
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Lane 4: How often do regular Hungarian meets have this atmosphere?

:devil: Splash reply: I don't know:).
And finally I would add that I think there are great changes afoot in British Swimming as the damage done by Bill begins to be undone. Far too many swimmers were marginalised, gave up in their teens or retired early as all the fun had gone. In contrast this was a great meet for the swimmers that went well, with them at last being treated like adults and accordingly having fun and performing better. Our new temporary Australian gets my vote. Thought also is being given as to how to support swimmers other than just the Olympic hopefuls.
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[NotVeryFast]

Our new temporary Australian gets my vote.
Interesting to see you say that. I read this article on swimnews (http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?action=get&id=5794) and thought he sounded like someone with a lot of good ideas, talking a lot of sense.

[colonelhall]

Our "new temporary Australian" gets my vote too. A very positive article in the Times today. I think that it is a bit harsh to talk about "the damage done by Bill". He has made tremendous strides during his time in G.B. and we have a lot to be thankful for. Where he did not succeed was at the Olympics. Although a few swimmers notably rose to the occasion, many did not. This is the thing that perplexes me. I like the "Win today's race to become tomorrow's champion." idea, and whilst not advocating multiple tapers through the year, I would like to have seen a few more "do or die" situations.
Surely, if you were someone like Cseh, standing on the blocks at an Olympic final, a world record must be an awesome weapon to be holding, both in terms of confidence and as a threat to the opposition.
There are an awful lot of terrific times being produced at the moment and it remains to be seen if the likes of Manadou, Hoff, Cseh, Phelps, Bal and the rest will be coming back with the goods next year, but it's going to be fascinating.

[lane4]

It is not realistic to taper for Speedo league and every club meet but especially when competing at this level all our swimmers should have been given every chance to perform at their best rather than risk demoralisation.How do you know they weren't? Are you certain they were stopped from doing so? If so, who and by whom?

Why do you presume that first of all I am not part of/or close to said management and that I am not already doing as you suggest?I make no assumptions on this front at all, although I've not heard you doing so, and I certainly didn't hear anyone shouting it down in Debrecen. Additionally, you never did accept my invitation to talk it through. Why I wonder? So put us in the clear then, what exactly have you said, and to whom?

...but I wonder how many swimmers prepare as they would really like to compared with how their coaches like to prepare them?Your premise seems to be: the coaches are all wrong, the swimmers know better. In that situation any such swimmer will certainly be better off without a coach. Why use a coach if you're already the expert?

I agree of course that swimmers learn a huge amount at these meets but not tapering is just silly.No, it's just a different perspective. Not all people in the sport have the same objectives as you.

...Tiger Woods, Lewis Hamilton and Federer... Focusing constantly on the 'jam tomorrow' horizon can lead to tripping over your own feet. Win today's race to become tomorrow's champion.You use the names of leading sportsmen but what about Mr Woods then, why is it that he enters less Tour events than anyone else? Seems to me that he is a classic example of focusing on the "jam tomorrow". He only seems to care about winning the 4 Majors and every other tournament he does is a preparation for beating Jack's record of 18 (i.e. the jam on the horizon as you call it).

And what about Mr Phelps? How many meets do you think he is shaving and tapering for this season? Did he rest up for the US SC Nationals? Is he coming to the World SC in Manchester? Why is he not living in those moments, winning those races so he can be tomorrow's champion? Why have many of the top Americans opted out of the World SC? Why have some entire countries opted out of the World SC?

And finally I would add that I think there are great changes afoot in British Swimming as the damage done by Bill begins to be undone. How easily you always avoid mentioning the great many positives of Bill's time in the UK.

[lane4]

Surely, if you were someone like Cseh, standing on the blocks at an Olympic final, a world record must be an awesome weapon to be holding, both in terms of confidence and as a threat to the opposition.You're right, it must, but such a thing didn't help Cseh too much in Melbourne this year.

[selkie]

Bal's a very talented swimmer who happens to hold the wrong passport at the wrong time- the Americans have such a huge talent glut in the event that it's hard for him to make a National A team here. Same thing goes for Chris Dejong's 200M backstroke- you've got guys who are ranked #5 in the world for what they do, but are #4 in their own country.

Part of it was probably trying to hold a taper past it's due date, but Bal didn't even make the finals of the 200 back American short course nationals after dominating that event at world cup, and those formats aren't different enough that it should have happened like that.

Can't blame the guy for looking over the list of usual suspects on the World Cup circuit and seeing a chance to make $100K if he made that his focus of the second half of 2007 rather than finishing 4th in the 100M back here again at national meets.

Too bad that international swimming isn't a team sport like soccer/football because it would be rather effective for many involved if we could trade him to Australia or something in exchange for a better #2 200M butterflyer. (After Phelps, it seems to really drop off here)

[Woodward]

Selkie/Woodward in particular, I wonder if you can offer some perspective on Randall Bal. He is someone who stands out from the US in so far as he is willing to travel the world cup circuit swimming SCM for several weeks - is the Olympics not high on his agenda?


Randall Bal was barely beaten out by Ryan Lochte for the second WC spot in the 100 back. The U.S. used both the Summer Nationals & Pan Pacs from 2006 as qualifying meets for the World Championships. Lochte beat out Bal by six hundredths of a second. (53.78 to 53.84).

As a result Bal did not swim at any meaningful meets the first half of 2007. He did not bother competing at Spring Nationals. His first big meet was in August (The Pan Ams). A couple things help Bal with his wanderings. He's no longer in school (high/college) and he has training bases on two continents now. He spends at least half his time training in Europe.

I'm not sure if it was Bal's intention to swim at every World Cup meet initially. He swam well consistently and did some great times. But he also benefited from some absenteeism in his events (e.g. Peirsol, Tancock. Lochte). Seeing that his chances were good for a Top 3 pay day even after the first few meets travel costs become even less of a factor for him!

As far as his training I doubt Bal believes he's going to be at a disadvantage. He did the typical cycle in the lead up to Athens but was just pipped at trials in what has been the deepest men's event in America the last decade. It's a shame because in the 100 back only Aaron has been more consistent over the last four years. He also just turned 27 which means that he should be able to put in a good run of training before trials next year. The whole year of intense preparation with few rested races is probably not as appealing for veterans ... and maybe even less vital.

The US trials are set to take place in July. He will also race in Manchester. But many swimmers will probably have at least one hit out meet in the spring (e.g. NCAAs, Grand Prix, Manchester).


What about Nystrand, Veldhuis, Pereira?
Nystrand was disappointed with his Worlds performance. Although he did go sub 22 for bronze in the 50. He doesn't go the intense training-taper route. So I doubt the World Cup this year will hamper his preparation for next summer. Although he did seem to run out of steam in Hungary. Not sure about the plans or training philosophies of Veldhuis & Pereira. Veldhuis was able to knock off a 53.8 swim in January (Antwerp) and then come back in March to swim a Silver winning 53.7 in Melbourne.

[Linny]

Taper or not to taper. Can you only taper a maximum of twice a year? I never even asked about tapering, I asked why the guys don't shave to swim as fast as they can for the physical condition they are in.

[Linny]

:devil: Sorry this looks abit messy but was trying to quote Lane 4 with where he had quoted me left in and could not manage it. Anyone know how?Yes, you multiquote, copying as many times as is necessary to achieve what you want to acheive in the way that you have already done and then move your quote markers around where necessary to include quotes inside quotes remembering that at the front of a quote you always need a {quote=whoever it is} and at the end you need a {/quote}, with square brackets though, not curly ones.

Thus for -

{quote=SplashNblub;111517}It has been a bit of a mixed bag so far and your bigger picture/Olympic trials speech was a classic. Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.{/quote}{quote=lane4;111526}Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?{/quote}

which would appear too messy to reply to as...
It has been a bit of a mixed bag so far and your bigger picture/Olympic trials speech was a classic. Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.
Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?
....all you need to do is move the {/quote} after the word "shaved" to after the final {/quote} and you get instead -

{quote=SplashNblub;111517}It has been a bit of a mixed bag so far and your bigger picture/Olympic trials speech was a classic. Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.{quote=lane4;111526}Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?{/quote}{/quote}....

...which looks like -
It has been a bit of a mixed bag so far and your bigger picture/Olympic trials speech was a classic. Why for goodness sake are so many swimmers not tapered or shaved.
Do you seriously not understand why? Because if not, come and speak to me and we'll talk it through. In fact come and speak to me if you do understand why and we'll talk it through. But I guess you're too scared/coward to do that eh?

[Gina]

Our new temporary Australian gets my vote. Thought also is being given as to how to support swimmers other than just the Olympic hopefuls.

Don't you think that some of the Olympic team will come from the team that went to Euro SCs?

I'm not sure about other swimmers but I was rested partly, not Olympic trials rested, but I eased off the weights and did a bit more sprint work than before. This is partly because the Olympic trials are in just over 3 months and we normally do hard training over Xmas so going from fully rested to heavy training is a killer (I did it at Easter and I didn't recover for months!)

[SplashNblub]

I never even asked about tapering, I asked why the guys don't shave to swim as fast as they can for the physical condition they are in.
Perhaps there is no Bic budget. Or no brains budget. Or they can't foam home. But what do I know. I am not the man I was that is for sure. If a man at all. Ta for the posting tips. You must have had a quiet day. I will build up to replying to his lordship in due course but it's a bit like pushing a snake up a hill.

[Linny]

I am not the man I was that is for sure.I'm absolutely convinced of that. SplashNblub of old had a way with words and was clearly very clever. He was able to spark great debate and was never afraid to court controversy. I really rather liked him.

You just don't have those qualities, even though you are saying similar things.

Get your own log in and ask your mate to come back and post properly.

[SplashNblub]

I'm absolutely convinced of that. SplashNblub of old had a way with words and was clearly very clever. He was able to spark great debate and was never afraid to court controversy. I really rather liked him.

You just don't have those qualities, even though you are saying similar things.

Get your own log in and ask your mate to come back and post properly.
I am horrified that you liked me. You clearly think that I have lost my edge so having spent a few weeks resharpening my adz in China I will try to briefly entertain the troops. Oh and I am most certainly still me but as one psychiatrist said to another, 'You are alright, How am I?'