Aussie Olympic Trials [Archive] - SwimClub.co.uk Forums

NotVeryFast

22-03-2008, 01:12 PM

To be honest, I'm getting bored with all the WRs. A WR should be an exceptional occurrence, something to get excited about. Nowadays, they bring out a new suit and everyone sets WRs in it, we saw it last year with the FS Pro, and it's happening again with the LZR.

8 WRs so far in 2008, all set by swimmers wearing Speedo LZRs (http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?action=get&id=5939).

Stevie_k

22-03-2008, 02:04 PM

How saddening when world records are being lowered by technological advancement rather that physical exception!

Naturally you all know that this statement makes me heave to my very core!

I had rather enjoyed watching the euro's this week until i read that.

Going to have to forget the joke that is competative swimming and concentrate on my own legitimate budgie achieved times.

Mac

22-03-2008, 02:18 PM

With the the number of world records occurring (and likely to occur at all the upcoming trials) i've been thinking:

1. whether there may not actually be that many world records at the Olympics (pressure of the event, morning finals, unfamiliar surroundings)

2. why is it that everyone swims so much faster in Olympic year. I know it's the pinnacle of the competitve programme but presumably the swimmers train really hard for, say, the World Champs (i can understand that there would improvments from some greater intensivity, focus etc but some of the times swum recently have been massive PB's). Is it really all to do with the suit?

Knowley

22-03-2008, 03:13 PM

Has Jo Fargus swum in the Aussie trials yet?

Katie

22-03-2008, 04:37 PM

To be honest, I think it's great! I don't in reality know how much difference these suits make - obviously it's some, but there's no way it accounts for Rice cutting her previous best by 6 seconds. I would imagine that with the hype around these suits and the way they feel, there is quite a lot of difference mentally as well.

Stevie_k

22-03-2008, 04:52 PM

what i would LOVE is for the olympics to ban them!!!

Then we would see how fast we REALLY were in top racing condition!

Mac

22-03-2008, 05:05 PM

Jo Fargus swam the 50 bk but her better events are later in the programme

Gina

22-03-2008, 05:22 PM

Well the suit doesn't swim the race for you as Liam Tancock demostrated in the 100 back. Maybe it's just coincidence that the top swimmers have been picked by Speedo to wear the suits and so they will break the WRs in them.

When I watched the swimmers wearing the Speedo suit it looks quite wrinkly on TV so I don't see anything special with the suit apart from the seems. I think the FS Pro was a stop-gap between the FS11s and the LZR as the design wasn't the greatest. The seems were massive compared to the Diana Submarine suit and the new LZR.

Anyway, it's the athlete inside the suit that does it not the suit.

Stevie_k

22-03-2008, 05:34 PM

Then lets bin the stupid suits and see whats what.

Swimming should be like boxing. It was how its meant to be. 1 on 1 (albeit 6 at once). Man V Man. Same equipment, no arguments.

Woodward

22-03-2008, 07:14 PM

Massive swim by Rice. She will have a good shot at taking the 200IM WR down. Seebohm may also challenge the record in the 100 back. The Australian women are demonstrating why they're the best in the world.

selkie

22-03-2008, 08:03 PM

Ya know, they said the exact same things when the lycra bathing suit was introduced in the early 1970s, replacing nylon racing suits.

Woodward

22-03-2008, 08:20 PM

This is different.

I used to be in the "it's mostly mental" club. But the AIS and Jonty Skinner at Colorado Springs have tested these suits relentlessly. Nothing official has been revealed of course but news has already filtered down. It's clear that the difference suits are making is having exponentially more impact with every new product. A few swimmers have cut off sponsors to switch brands recently.

The research and financial inputs now compared to the 70s/80s is the difference between night vs day, or even French vs. Italian. ;)

There has been talk of a "heritage meet" where people wear what was worn in the 60s ... or even earlier. It would be nice to see some of today's top swimmers support such a meet at some point.

Katie

22-03-2008, 10:25 PM

I see that a heritage meet would be a fun idea, but there's a difference between wearing a standard costume, and actually wearing something that's going to slow you down! Surely these suits can't "make you go faster" - I mean, yes they reduce drag and so on, but in the end they can't make you SWIM faster. Maybe it's naive of me to look at it this way though!

Woodward

22-03-2008, 11:53 PM

Not in the literal sense. But less drag = faster times not just because of better liquid dynamics but energy is obviously conserved. I think it's a big deal in a sport like swimming. But I think the biggest enhancement issue here is buoyancy and the ability to ride higher in the water.

Katie

23-03-2008, 08:28 AM

Back to the Aussie trials... and not really surprising to see Emily Seebohm under the minute in the semis of the 100 (59.7) but some pretty massive PBs from a couple of the other backstrokers Belinda Hocking (60.1) and Meagen Nay (60.8).
1.46.6s from Patrick Murphy and Hackett's not slow either... and Libby Trickett/Lenton was only just off the WR in the 100 fly with a 56.8. Impressive to have 4 women under 58.5 in the 100 fly.
Maybe the men's breaststroke guys will go under the minute tomorrow night?

Katie

23-03-2008, 08:30 AM

Just saw the women's 100 breast semis results - looks like Leisel Jones has her work cut out not only for the gold, but to defend her WR!
1 WHITE, TARNEE, (AIS) 26 CHAND 1:07.33 1:06.04
2 EDMISTONE, JADE (QAS) 26 COMM 1:10.46 1:07.10
3 JONES, LEISEL (VIS) 22 CAA 1:07.11 1:07.48

lane4

23-03-2008, 09:55 AM

Surely these suits can't "make you go faster" - I mean, yes they reduce drag and so on, but in the end they can't make you SWIM faster. Maybe it's naive of me to look at it this way though!Katie, go hire a wetsuit (a typical one that people wear for windsurfing and the like), but wear it in training and do a normal training set with it on. Compare your times in the set to what you would do normally in a costume. You will probably find all the proof you will ever need of why bodysuits work. Obviously wetsuits are not made to help people reduce drag but they do provide a huge amount of buoyancy. And like Woodward says, it's this which is the key. Clearly, a bodysuit won't provide as much buoyancy as a wetsuit but even if it provides a tiny margin of additional buoyancy it will help reduce times. It also makes them completely in breach of FINA rules but FINA don't seem to care about that. I used to coach a guy who could swim 400m in training 30 seconds faster when wearing a wetsuit than he could in normal trunks.

Taxiandbank

23-03-2008, 11:29 AM

Katie, go hire a wetsuit (a typical one that people wear for windsurfing and the like), but wear it in training and do a normal training set with it on. Compare your times in the set to what you would do normally in a costume. You will probably find all the proof you will ever need of why bodysuits work. Obviously wetsuits are not made to help people reduce drag but they do provide a huge amount of buoyancy. And like Woodward says, it's this which is the key. Clearly, a bodysuit won't provide as much buoyancy as a wetsuit but even if it provides a tiny margin of additional buoyancy it will help reduce times. It also makes them completely in breach of FINA rules but FINA don't seem to care about that. I used to coach a guy who could swim 400m in training 30 seconds faster when wearing a wetsuit than he could in normal trunks.

So tri-athletes are really cr@p swimmers after all.:zip:

Gina

23-03-2008, 03:49 PM

27.67 from Sophie Edington sees a massive chunk being taken out of the 50 back WR.

Quite a strong field in the 200 free for men with 2 going 1.46 and 4 going 1.47 in the semis.

Eamon Sullivan lead out the 4x100 free relay for his club but I can't see any splits. Does anyone know what time he lead out in?

NotVeryFast

25-03-2008, 07:55 AM

47.55 from Sullivan in the 100m free semis! Definitely in with a chance of breaking Bernard's WR in the final.

NotVeryFast

25-03-2008, 08:40 AM

And Stephanie Rice just added to her 400 IM WR with a 200 IM WR of 2:08.92.

NotVeryFast

26-03-2008, 08:32 AM

Oooh that was close, Sullivan improves to 47.52 in the 100 free final, 0.02 outside Bernard's WR.

Chris

26-03-2008, 04:11 PM

Oooh that was close, Sullivan improves to 47.52 in the 100 free final, 0.02 outside Bernard's WR.

What was he wearing NVF?

Steve

26-03-2008, 04:37 PM

What was he wearing NVF?
LZR of course!

NotVeryFast

27-03-2008, 08:47 AM

OMG, Sullivan takes the 50 free WR with 21.41, and Libbie Trickett (Lenton) smashes the 100 free WR with 52.88!!! Very impressive 53.81 from 15 yr old Cate Campbell, too.

2.tso

27-03-2008, 09:55 AM

this is what i find much more interesting

At Australian trials between 1988 and 2004, four world records were broken.

Six have gone so far in six days the 2008 trials. The history book has been shredded and a new one has begun.

it must be the suit!!!!!

NotVeryFast

27-03-2008, 10:59 AM

Yes, I keep getting excited about people's times before remembering to adjust them by 0.5 secs per 100m to account for the new suit. Thus Libbie's 52.88 is really 53.38 and not a real WR, however Sullivan's 21.41 I see as truly remarkable because even if we add on 0.25 for the suit it is still 21.66 and hence a genuine WR.

2.tso

27-03-2008, 11:13 AM

Curly

27-03-2008, 11:16 AM

So does that mean that when everyone can buy the suit, it will then be a real world record? ;)

2.tso

27-03-2008, 11:18 AM

So does that mean that when everyone can buy the suit, it will then be a real world record? ;)

maybe!

NotVeryFast

27-03-2008, 11:18 AM

how the f.uck do you come up with these numbers man?
It's just a rough guess based on what times people are achieving compared to pre-LZR. It will vary per swimmer anyway, some will gain more benefit than others from the new suit.

2.tso

27-03-2008, 11:19 AM

oh i thought you had some factual information that speedo had released!!

NotVeryFast

27-03-2008, 11:20 AM

So does that mean that when everyone can buy the suit, it will then be a real world record? ;)
No, I think someone would have to swim sub 21 in an LZR for it to be as good a swim as Popov's in briefs.

Baker

27-03-2008, 11:21 AM

2.tso

27-03-2008, 11:25 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DUOl-XKMPZc

Don't tell me there is no way he would have gone faster with one of these suits. If he had been wearing just an FSII he would probably swam faster, nevermind this 4th or 5th generation of suit.

popov coudl have worn the area suit in sydney but did not! i think if he thought it would make him go faster he would have worn it!

Baker

27-03-2008, 11:30 AM

Back in 2000 when these suits were hardly widespread?

The suits now are in a different league to what they were in 2004 and certainly 2000.

If you don't think they make you go faster all you have to do is put one on and push off the wall. See how far you glide.

2.tso

27-03-2008, 11:37 AM

Back in 2000 when these suits were hardly widespread?

.

but available to the top swimmers!!!!!

Baker

27-03-2008, 11:42 AM

The suits were **** back then

Limerick

27-03-2008, 03:41 PM

getting back to the Aussie trials, my niece who lives in Brisbane in attending these even tho she is only 15...she swam a 1.14 for the 100m, and was ranked 24th out of over 70 swimmers so was very happy. She is ranked at 24th going into the 50m breast on friday, so fingers crossed she will swim well. Its weird having a niece who can swim faster than me!

Bazza

27-03-2008, 04:42 PM

I think these suits are clearly making a significant difference and anyone who thinks otherwise is living in a dream world. That said, the womens 100 free record was looking vulnerable - since it was set, Lenton, Coughlin, Weir, Veldhuis had all swum mid 53s. There have been multiple 52s in relays and Halsall split a 53.0 in the medley relay last week.

Where the suits have clearly made a big difference is the womens medleys - Stephanie Rice dropped about 6 seconds on the 400 IM and a few seconds on the 200 - the 200 record had stood for a decade and went by nearly a second while the 400 record had similarly stood for several years and was rarely threatened before Hoff broke it, now Rice swims 1.5 seconds under?

It's clearly never going to happen now but I would like to see us revert back to 'normal' suits - feel free to play with the materials, but how fast could guys swim in trunks these days? Probably not much faster than they were 10 years ago.

Linny

27-03-2008, 05:05 PM

Where the suits have clearly made a big difference is the womens medleys - Stephanie Rice dropped about 6 seconds on the 400 IM and a few seconds on the 200 - the 200 record had stood for a decade and went by nearly a second while the 400 record had similarly stood for several years and was rarely threatened before Hoff broke it, now Rice swims 1.5 seconds under?Not sure I agree with your observations here Bazza. Really, apart from Stephanie Rice there is little difference in the ladies medleys between the Australian Championships this year and at the end of 2006 when qualifying for the World Championships in Melbourne. I'm reckoning that most if not all of her improvement is down to genuine swimming improvement rather than her choice of swimwear. Mind you I don't know how many of the other swimmers wore a new cozzie so I could be well wrong.

Where I believe that we have seen a marked and more general improvement amongst the leading swimmers (and lesser beings who have been afforded access to LZRs :p) is in the freestyle and backstroke events and this is where we have seen most of the world records too (although none in the male backstroke events yet because we have yet to see the world's leading male backstrokers swim this year). This I think could be down at least in part to the new suits.

NotVeryFast

28-03-2008, 08:19 AM

Eamon Sullivan 21.28 in the 50 free final. Even with the new suit, that really is a very seriously fast new WR.

Woodward

28-03-2008, 05:31 PM

Typically, a .22 margin in a 50 free is considered a good margin. Sullivan made Bernard's swim look second rate.

DAK

28-03-2008, 05:37 PM

Typically, a .22 margin in a 50 free is considered a good margin. Sullivan made Bernard's swim look second rate.

An amazing swim among many in the last few weeks. Looking forward to our trials next week and also the US trials where I think there will be a few WR's set.

Also fingers crossed the standard continues to improve in Beijing as I will be at the finals to watch the action ! :fingers:

Woodward

28-03-2008, 05:46 PM

Where I believe that we have seen a marked and more general improvement amongst the leading swimmers (and lesser beings who have been afforded access to LZRs :p) is in the freestyle and backstroke events and this is where we have seen most of the world records too (although none in the male backstroke events yet because we have yet to see the world's leading male backstrokers swim this year). This I think could be down at least in part to the new suits. Obviously half the medleys are back/free so I don't see why they wouldn't be of some help there too.

Not all the Australians are wearing the suits so that may play some factor. Each world record swimmer has worn one and just about all the commonwealth/national record breakers have been wearing them too. Just about all their best free swimmers on the relays are kitted up. The stats 2.0mps quoted are telling. There were some great Australian teams in previous Olympic years. We haven't seen records broke at this rate since the 70s and it's only March.

Some of these great swims are also down to athlete training and talent but it's hard to discount the suit's impact. A few days after Coughlin surprisingly dropped a couple tenths from the back record she said it was the most bizarre race she's ever done because it didn't feel like she was going anywhere near that fast.

chris_lamb

28-03-2008, 09:33 PM

A few days after Coughlin surprisingly dropped a couple tenths from the back record she said it was the most bizarre race she's ever done because it didn't feel like she was going anywhere near that fast.

Or was it just because she was exceptionally well prepared both physically and mentally and everything just fell together perfectly? I know I sometimes find things go much more smoothly and quicker than expected even if it doesn't seem it at the time because of advanced preparation.

While it may be down to "the suit" the perception of ease doesn't mean it wasn't due to a lot of hard work. Can anyone claim not to have seen a swim that was really quick but looked easy because the swimmer got it right?

Woodward

29-03-2008, 12:05 AM

Or was it just because she was exceptionally well prepared both physically and mentally and everything just fell together perfectly? I know I sometimes find things go much more smoothly and quicker than expected even if it doesn't seem it at the time because of advanced preparation. Sure. The swim and her comments on it's own wouldn't necessarily signify anything. I'm only piecing it together with the preponderance of other evidence we've seen lately. Namely the horde of other swimmers these past two months that were prepared both physically, mentally, and everything fell into place perfectly. She is a seasoned and experienced swimmer so I probably give her description more consideration.

While it may be down to "the suit" the perception of ease doesn't mean it wasn't due to a lot of hard work. Can anyone claim not to have seen a swim that was really quick but looked easy because the swimmer got it right?There seems to be concern that talk of the suit will overshadow the talents and dedication of the athletes. I hope that doesn't happen. The swimmers still have to be faster than their rivals come the Olympics. But the issues that the new suits raise shouldn't be ignored.

Apostle

29-03-2008, 10:19 AM

lenton goes 23.97 in 50 free WR

NotVeryFast

29-03-2008, 10:51 AM

Craig Stevens' 1500 in 14:53 is significant to me. His best had slowly improved from 15:09 in Jul 2002 to 14:59 in Apr 2007. Carrying on this rate of improvement would have got him to 14:57 by now, but to be honest, you would really expect his rate of improvement to be levelling off after all these years, and I suspect he only improved to 14:59 last year due to the introduction of the FS Pro. Anyway, the gap from 14:57 to 14:53 gives a gain for the LZR suit of 0.26 secs per 100. It could be more than this, or less than this, depending how good each of those swims was by his standards, but it's one of many data points we can calculate in a similar way, which has led me to believe that 0.5 secs per 100 is a reasonable rough estimate for the benefit of LZR over FS Pro. Any given individual swimmer may benefit more or less than this, as it will affect different people differently.

Woodward

29-03-2008, 06:32 PM

NVF, I think an even starker example of that from the trials is flyer Adam Pine, who has been plying the waters seemingly forever going a 52.1 (a pb by more than a 1/2 sec). He'll be the oldest member of their squad. He's been pretty consistent over most of the last decade as a low to mid 53sec swimmer with dips just below 53 the last two years. I remember him squaring off with Scott Miller back in the day. He witnessed the Klim-Huegill era in his event come and go. Now after being blown out of the water by Michael on each occasion he's inched to within 3 tenths of Klim's best.

I've read in the online Daily Telegraph (Australian paper) that every single swimmer in the 100 and 200 freestyle finals was wearing a LZR and that a handful of them wore other brands up until this year.

Mac

30-03-2008, 12:17 PM

Leaving aside the issue of the suits, it was a shame that Jo Fargus didn't make the Oz team. I thought she would have swum quicker in the 200 bk after her 100 swim but it was not to be - two swimmers on 2:08 meant that qualification for that event would've been very tough even if she'd had the race of her life. After winning the Commonwealth title she doesn't seem to have progressed like i'm sure she'd have wanted

Bazza

30-03-2008, 05:04 PM

Not sure I agree with your observations here Bazza. Really, apart from Stephanie Rice there is little difference in the ladies medleys between the Australian Championships this year and at the end of 2006 when qualifying for the World Championships in Melbourne. I'm reckoning that most if not all of her improvement is down to genuine swimming improvement rather than her choice of swimwear. Mind you I don't know how many of the other swimmers wore a new cozzie so I could be well wrong.

Where I believe that we have seen a marked and more general improvement amongst the leading swimmers (and lesser beings who have been afforded access to LZRs :p) is in the freestyle and backstroke events and this is where we have seen most of the world records too (although none in the male backstroke events yet because we have yet to see the world's leading male backstrokers swim this year). This I think could be down at least in part to the new suits.

I don't think you can say the suits haven't benefitted breaststrokers and flyers as well. On the breast We've seen two guys go sub 60 and three under 2:10 for the first time. Cavic had a significant drop on the 50 and we didn't get to see what he might have done on the 100. I don't think any of the world finalists have done a big meet this year (except NCAAs which is SCY). We haven't seen as much from the women although White, Edmistone and Trickett did some good swims and Europe aren't as strong in those strokes.

I accept it's difficult to distinguish how much improvement has come from the suits and how much from training but we have seen some unprecedented improvments - as recently as last year sub 22 was a world class 50 free - now Sullivan is half a second quicker. I like to think we can dismiss the 'd' word as so many people are so much faster, but the only common denominator appears to be the new suits.

Dan_tm

09-04-2008, 12:16 PM

Dan_tm

17-05-2008, 01:39 PM

While the Australian trials were unbelievable fast,my favourite moment is always the new faces that pop up....

No doubt the face of the future is Cate Campbell...

How many 15 year old girls around that swim the
50m Free-24.30
100m Free-53.81

Excuuuuse Me!!

Cate Campbell beats Coughlin(who broke the US record on her way to 53.39) at the US GP in

100m Free-53.30 (3rd fastest in history)

This girl is going to be so good its unbelieveably scary...

Taxiandbank

17-05-2008, 01:46 PM

Excuuuuse Me!!

Cate Campbell beats Coughlin(who broke the US record on her way to 53.39) at the US GP in

100m Free-53.30 (3rd fastest in history)

This girl is going to be so good its unbelieveably scary...

http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=76792&postcount=10
As I predicted 23/12/06

Dan_tm

17-05-2008, 02:06 PM

http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=76792&postcount=10
As I predicted 23/12/06
Well done!!
and Seebohm is easily the youngest under 1.00 in the back..

Got me thinking about that medley relay..We all think that Seebohm,Jones,Schipper and Lenton will be the lineup,but by what Campbell did last night......it may well be Seebohm,Jones,Lenton(Fly) and Campbell which if im not mistaken would be a faster lineup and demolish the WR based on 2008 times..

Dan_tm

18-05-2008, 10:13 AM

Linny

18-05-2008, 12:05 PM

Here is the Vid of the US GP 100m Free

http://www.swimnetwork.com/videos/v/20080517/women_s_100m_free___a_final-11765.html

Natalie as usual..awesome underwater and gets massive advantage...Campbell though ..Wow!!....At 15 doesnt yet have the strength yet off the walls,but her stroke...Popovesque....She does look absolutely incredible. It is going to be difficult for other women, even the best swimmers in the world, to compete against her when she is nearly 6 foot 3, possibly still growing and swims like that.

Katie

18-05-2008, 12:23 PM

I can't believe how differently they swam that race! Coughlin's starts and turns were absolutely amazing, and she really left Campbell behind on them, but Campbell's actual swim was incredible. Her swimming speed must be much faster than Coughlin's.

Dan_tm

19-05-2008, 02:03 PM

How many 15 year old girls around that swim the
50m Free-24.30

edit:

50m Free-24.13

NotVeryFast

19-05-2008, 02:10 PM

How many 15 year old girls around that swim the
50m Free - 24.13

She's 16 tomorrow, though, so only just 15. But still, a remarkable level of performance, and I can see her obliterating the World Records at some point in the future.

selkie

19-05-2008, 04:30 PM

She's at that age when it's about 50/50 whether she improves much more than that or if she plateaus. Not surprising to see a swimmer like that go either way.

Woodward

19-05-2008, 10:23 PM

Generally, it seems that breaststrokers and backstrokers have had more of an issue with that than crawl swimmers. The young Japanese swimmer from Barcelona and Diana Mocanu are cases in point. However, for them it may have been a case of achieving the pinnacle and not being motivated enough to get past those plateaus to extend their careers.

Other cases are of young swimmers getting close but never breaking through to the top. In Campbell's case she's already broken through to that level. I don't think she's going away any time soon. In fact the future may be now. I can see her taking the 50 from Lenton, Alshammar, and company at the Olympics.