Changing Flags

[swimleeds]

In sports, we seem to have had through the years many sportsmen/women who compete for one country and then transfer to another, either under or flag of convenience or more more legitimate reasons.

The first I can recall is of Ferenc Puskas, in football who moved from Hungary to Spain, because of the Soviet Invasaion of Hungary. In athletics, this seems more common nowadays.

However, in swimming, this does not seem such a common practice. Two come to mind off the top of my head, Klim and (pardon the spelling) Zvanaskaya. There was also lass who competed for South Africa but is moving to Germany shortly.

I was wondering if any one can come up with any more.

For instance, do the States get any from Canada crossing the border and vice-versa?

[glen_75]

I can't think of any example involving swimmers from either Canada or the United States off the top of my head.

Michaeal Klim and Lenny Krayzelburg are exceptions because they emigrated well before they reached the heights of their talent and would've done so, regardless of whether they achieved things in the pool. Their parents were the ones who made the decision. The fact that Lenny was able to pursue swimming in the US was a bonus. His parents certainly weren't thinking olympics at that time. Lenny emigrated when he was 13. Michael Klim (born in Poland) coincidentally emigrated to Australia the same year as Lenny (1989).

Ugur Taner is another such case similar to Lenny and Klimmy. He emigrated to the US from Turkey with his parents. He was a solid 200 butterflyer through the 90's, who had a pb of 1:56.8. He also swam on 4x200 relays for the US. Pablo Morales, a sentimental favourite of mine emigrated to the US from Cuba as an infant.

But as for "convenience" I don't know. Nina Zhivanevskaya is a good example because she has represented both her country of origin and her adopted country. I don't know the specifics.

The only example of an American representing a team from another country and it comes to my mind because the US wasn't too thrilled about it and who just happened to be very good swimmer...a gold medallist in fact: Marty Zubero.

He was born in Florida to an American mother and a Spanish born father who swam for Spain. As a young swimmer he competed for the US a couple of times. But, he decided to represent Spain because he idolised his father and wanted to emulate him. However, it must be noted that his endorsement opportunities in Spain were always going to exceed those in the US, especially since the olympic games were being held in Barcelona. He didn't speak a word of Spanish. One of Marty's sponsors in Spain encouraged him to learn enough so that he could do a press conference in Spanish. After his golden swim, he was only able to string together some pre-prepared lines in Spanish before resuming in English. This however, didn't stop the Spanish public at large from embracing him....despite some sarcasm from the Spanish press.

The girl from South Africa you're speaking of is Sarah Poewe, who has connections to both countries, but will continue to swim for SAF as far as I know.

Ray Hass, a backstroker for Australia grew up in South Africa, but swims for Australia. Again, this case isn't an example of convenience as the decision was unrelated to his pursuit of swimming. Besides, he actually faces tougher competition to make Australian teams in the backstroke than in South Africa, for which the backstroke is not a strength at the moment.

There are probably more examples...but I can't think of them off the top of my head right not. In the end I think its the decision of the swimmer. Although some nation's loose requirements do make it pretty easy. Requirements that are often deliberately loosened for athletes but which would not normally be extended to low profile applicants.

[swimusa]

Originally posted by swimleeds
In sports, we seem to have had through the years many sportsmen/women who compete for one country and then transfer to another, either under or flag of convenience or more more legitimate reasons.

The first I can recall is of Ferenc Puskas, in football who moved from Hungary to Spain, because of the Soviet Invasaion of Hungary. In athletics, this seems more common nowadays.

However, in swimming, this does not seem such a common practice. Two come to mind off the top of my head, Klim and (pardon the spelling) Zvanaskaya. There was also lass who competed for South Africa but is moving to Germany shortly.

I was wondering if any one can come up with any more.

For instance, do the States get any from Canada crossing the border and vice-versa?

Nina Zhivanevskaya from Russia, now Spain.

[swimusa]

We get a bunch of Canadians to swim in our country for colleges and Universities. The most prominent that comes to mind is Shannon Shakespeare (98 Commonwealth bronze medallist). But as for representing the US or Canada in international meets, I can't think of any.

[Bazza]

There is a rule in Athletics where if you switch nations, the old governing body can block you from competing in major games for a set period (a year or two years something like that). I don't know if the same thing applies in swimming, but I belive Sarah Poewe struck a deal with the South African authorities that they would have no objections to her 'becoming German' if she represented them at the Commonwealth Games. Maybe this is the reason - she swims Commies, they don't block her swimming for Germany? One (slightly bizarre) example from Athletics which I remember from recent years is Wilson Kipketer. A world class middle distance runner switched from Kenya to Denmark. (Not a typical scandinavian in appearance!!). I can't remember the reason it was something to do with birth or living there or maybe marriage? Of course a more famous example would be the likes of Zola Budd.

I believe Nina Zhivanevskaya married a Spaniard, and adopted Spain as her home nation. Not too popular when she 'stole' a title off a Russian counterpart a couple of years ago i seem to remember - either at Europeans or Worlds.

Also I never knew Klim wasn't all Aussie! I knew about Krayzelburg growing up in Russia, but not Klim...:idea:

[swimusa]

Nina most likely stole the title at Euros because she has never won a world title, as far as I know. She married her coach, who is Spanish, but that was after she started training under him in Spain, and after she began representing Spain. From what my Spanish friends tell me, she's not very well liked in either Spain or Russia, because she left Russia, and because she is the fastest Spaniard woman considerably, she has sort of a primadonna attitude. She swims for Club Natacion Sabadell, but doesn't swim their practices, or even live near Sabadell.

[sub24]

Canadians get their share of 'new' swimmers. Not many Canadians going to America though or vice versa.

A Tracy McFarlane swam for Canada at the Seoul Olympics and she had swum for USA at a Pan American games.

Trinadadian Mark Andrews swam for Trinadad/Tobago at the Pan American Games in 1987 and then Canada in 1988.

2002 Commonwealth Games Canadian Chuck Sayao tried to make the Brazilian 2000 Olympic team after just missing the Canadian team, but was DQ'd in his final at their Olympic Trials after making their qualifying time. He swam as Carlos Sayao there.

Two Czech swimmers emigrated to Canada and swam for both countried in the late eighties: Vlastimil Cerny and Marcel Gery.

I noticed that Simon Militus swam for England and his brother swam for Jersey. Why not both for Jersey and be famous at home?

[BigFish]

Originally posted by sub24
I noticed that Simon Militus swam for England and his brother swam for Jersey. Why not both for Jersey and be famous at home?

Are you suggesting one of them isn't?

[Bazza]

I believe Simon has lived and trained in/with Portsmouth for many years now. I guess swimming for GBR he committed himself to England. After all everyone knows the channel islands are French anyway!:devil: Alexis never made the trip...

[sub24]

I think Simon could have made a bigger impact on his fame if he had won the events he raced in Manchester. But he certainly is very well know in GB swim world, and probably is knighted in Jersey or something like that.

[Meiri]

We had a swimmer here, Vadim Alexeyv, who moved from Russia to Israel.. he has won several gold medals at the European Junior Championships in the late 80's, while he was still swimming for Russia. and then he got in to the final of the 100 breast at the 1993 European Championships, when swimming for Israel. he is now still the National Record Holder of Israel in all the breaststroke events.

[swimusa]

Israel competes in the European champs, correct?

[Bazza]

Yes they do.

Just thought I'd point out that Wilson Kipketer formerly of Kenya (now Denmark), mentioned above won the European 800m title yesterday.

[Aussiebabe]

A while ago now (Sept 2001) there were reports in the Aussie press that Gary Hall Jnr had expressed a desire to swim for Australia at the next Olympics!! I think nothing has come of it but here's the report:

GARY HALL BIDS TO SWIM FOR AUSTRALIA

Australian Swimming Inc. said today they accepted Gary Hall Jnr.'s praise for their system after the US star revealed he would seek approval to swim for the Dolphins at the 2004 Olympic Games.

Hall told respected Courier Mail swimming writer Wayne Smith: "There is a real momentum to Australian swimming at the moment with everyone working in the same direction...the enthusiasm for the sport down here is contagious so why not surround yourself with the best."

But ASI admitted it would not be a straight forward process for the Olympic champion to compete for Australia in Athens or in immediate international events.

ASI executive director, Vena Murray, said today Hall would have to abide by the Australian Federal Government regulations which would require him to apply for permanent residency and live in Australia for two years, before applying for Australian citizenship.

"In that time Gary would have to live and train in Australia and do all the things that all our swimmers have to do within our system," said Mrs Murray.

FINA (Swimming's world governing body) regulations only require the swimmer to reside in the country for 12 months before he or she can compete for another country in FINA events but the Federal laws would over-ride them.

The Olympic charter says an athlete, who has changed nationality or acquired a new nationality shall not participate in the Olympic Games to represent his new country until three years after such change or acquisition.

According to the AOC charter "this period may be reduced or even cancelled with the agreement of the National Olympic Committee (in this case the USOC) and the International Federation (FINA) and the approval of the International Olympic Committee Executive board.

[glen_75]

Here's what became of it: I looks like his comments were misinterpreted.

Hall Denies Reports
September 18, 2001
From USA Swimming


Gary Hall Sr. passed on a message to USA Swimming from his son, Gary Hall Jr., proclaiming that he will not swim for any country other than the USA, despite Australian media reports to the contrary. Hall was never directly quoted saying he would swim for Australia, but some offhand comments to a media member turned in to full blown rumors in Australia that reached all the way to Australian Swimming headquarters.

"Gary will not be swimming for any other country than the United States," said Gary Hall Sr. "I talked to him last night from Australia and he is upset about the rumors. He may train for a while in Australia because he loves it over there, but he will only represent the U.S. in international competitions."

[swimusa]

The USOC (along with USS) would not give the approval needed to bypass the 3 year residence requirement anyways. Not to Australia. If it was say Spain or France, maybe, because the Spanish and French do not have a real rivalry in swimming with the Americans like the Australians.

[Bazza]

I was gonna say all he appears to say in that first report is that he admires the way Australian swimming is set up and run, he never said "I want to swim for Australia in Athens".:rolleyes:

[violet]

i know the report isn't true but...i don't really think the australian people would really accept him though. we prefer our heroes homegrown or at least not have swum for another country previously. i really like gary hall though, he's quite a character and not bad looking in my opinion. :D

[Bazza]

He really annoyed me at Sydney actually with his antics. Then again what do you expect from a yank??!!:devil:

[swimusa]

He is not the typical American, thanks. He is the only swimmer I have ever seen race in the finals of a major meet (US Open) in a purple suit with a silver star on the crotch. He is further in orbit than Haley's Comet.

[selkie]

I can think of two American women. Both had South American parent(s), but were raised in the US.

Gabrielle Rose competed for Brazil in the 1996 Olympics. Then she decided she wanted to see if she was good enough to make the US Olympic team. She was, and finished 7th in the 200 IM in Sydney with an American flag on her cap. She's also swam for the US at a couple of World Championships since. She got a lot of respect from US swimmers in 2000 for taking a big chance and trying to make the US team when she would have been an automatic entry if she'd still wanted to swim for Brazil.

Second is Erin Volcan, who was 2000 South American champ in the 200 back while swimming for Venezuela. Had big fight with her Dad, who kept pushing her to swim for Venezuela when she wanted to just stay home in California. She finished 3rd in the 200 back at the World University Games while competing for the US. (US team for that meet is whoever's left after the World Championships and Pan American teams are announced) She's a solid swimmer who would have gone to the Olympics if she'd stuck with Venezuela, but will probably finish somewhere between 6th and 10th in the 200 back at the US trials.

[Bootie]

I believe Simon has lived and trained in/with Portsmouth for many years now. I guess swimming for GBR he committed himself to England. After all everyone knows the channel islands are French anyway!:devil: Alexis never made the trip...

Baz, as people from the Channel Islands are British, we can elect to represent any of the 4 home nations.

As for being "French" PAH!!

I can also remember last year in the athletic world champs there was a Kenyan, who upon receipt of however million dollars it was, suddenly represented a gulf state, can't remember which one and won a gold medal.
Believe me, gold medals do have a price and can be bought by the highest bidder!

[Bazza]

So you can choose to represent Northern Ireland if you wish? Seems a bit strange.

I can understand England or Great Britain vs France, but surely not ANY of the home countries? I am 'British' but don't have that choice!

[Bootie]

So you can choose to represent Northern Ireland if you wish? Seems a bit strange.

I can understand England or Great Britain vs France, but surely not ANY of the home countries? I am 'British' but don't have that choice!

But whilst you are British, you are also English, whereas I am British, but not English!
We sort of occupy that "grey area" in between the two!

[chlorine_babe]

I can also remember last year in the athletic world champs there was a Kenyan, who upon receipt of however million dollars it was, suddenly represented a gulf state, can't remember which one and won a gold medal.
Believe me, gold medals do have a price and can be bought by the highest bidder!

I can't remember the athletes name but he represented Quatar. He, a Kenyan man running for Quatar beat a Kenyan running for Kenya. You could hear the disappointment in the commentators voices they really wanted the Kenyan running for Kenya to win.

[Phil Tanner]

FIFA is changings its rules urgently to prevent Qatar signing up a bunch of Brazilian footballers on the same basis.

[Bootie]

Another "flag changer" from a few years ago was Precious Mackenzie, a very small man born in South Africa I believe. He was an extremely good weightlifter, but unfortunately this was during the apartheid period of that country's history.
Mackenzie emigrated and represented England I think in the Commonwealth Games, again I think winning gold, before emigrating in later years to New Zealand where he again represented them and won a medal at the Commonwealth Games.
Most of this is just my hazy recollection from a long time ago but I am sure that in sporting circles this quiet man of sport was nothing but shining example of how a sportsman should be. He represented the countries of his residence with both honour and dignity, in fact I also believe he received an honour from the queen, MBE or suchlike for services to sport and all this back in the late 60's early 70's.
I am sure that there is someone out there who could give a more accurate history of this man, as I say my recollection is sonewhat hazy.

[Kaci]

Another "flag changer" from a few years ago was Precious Mackenzie, a very small man born in South Africa I believe. He was an extremely good weightlifter, but unfortunately this was during the apartheid period of that country's history.
Mackenzie emigrated and represented England I think in the Commonwealth Games, again I think winning gold, before emigrating in later years to New Zealand where he again represented them and won a medal at the Commonwealth Games.
Most of this is just my hazy recollection from a long time ago but I am sure that in sporting circles this quiet man of sport was nothing but shining example of how a sportsman should be. He represented the countries of his residence with both honour and dignity, in fact I also believe he received an honour from the queen, MBE or suchlike for services to sport and all this back in the late 60's early 70's.
I am sure that there is someone out there who could give a more accurate history of this man, as I say my recollection is sonewhat hazy.

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-004.gif

[Bootie]

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/schlafen/sleeping-smiley-004.gif

Hazy because I were so young at the time! :rolleyes:

[Kaci]

You and your old man stories

[Bootie]

You and your old man stories

You sound like you don't believe me, look it up, the guy was famous!

[GettingFaster]

You sound like you don't believe me, look it up, the guy was famous!
Anyone who used to watch Blue Peter would agree with you. Lovely bloke, he was, very courteous and came on BP pretty often though I can't for the life of me remember why!

[Bootie]

I think that the point was he was a gentleman and a shing example of what a true sportsman should be. He could certainly give some of today's so called "sportsman" a lesson in sportsmanship.

[geochuck]

My brother Tom a famous marathon swimmer was born in New Castle, immigrated to Canada when he was 3 years old and moved to the USA when he was twenty-eight. When he won a race when he was thirty years old the news papers in England called him a British swimmer, Canadian papers called him a Canadian and the USA papers called him an American. What is the difference.

Kaci... Whats wrong with old man stories. One day you will more than likely be an old woman.

George www.swimdownhill.com