Rules question

[GettingFaster]

Judge, I'm sure there are comments on here from spectators as well as officials. And when I'm not officiating I also cringe at some of the kids' strokes and their tears when they're DQed.

And I wholeheartedly agree with your view on 200 fly, but even watching some of them doing 25 fly can be just as painful, as usually the ones who enter 200 fly can actually do the stroke!

[oswim]

Originally Posted by Noswimdad

Interested to hear our experienced officials guidance on the following situation, just for fun!

It was all handled (IMHO) brilliantly on the night, but it is interesting to see how peoples' interpretations differ.

Here's the scenario, gala event, 25m pool.

Individual 100m Open Freestyle event underway. Team manager/coach/whip lost concentration and thought this was actually the next event (the squadron relay) and instructed "little" swimmer to enter the pool (they were going to start from the water) ready for the the takeover.

So we have two swimmers in the water for the same event, decision?

this happened to my daughter years ago she was swimming up when another
swimmer thought she would go in (she was an event early!) Ref called the
race to stand as the result was not affected it was an 8 year old that caused
the problem. Daugher upset as she thought she would be DQ but was fine
when she wasn't common sense will usually prevail with refs as long as the
race is not affected and it was not done on purpose.

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by Judge Dredd

There is a difference between the novice nine-year-old who loses balance and leans forward as the start signal is given, and the experienced sixteen-year-old who is trying to get a “flyer”.

Yep, one is definetely "starting before the starting signal" and is definetely against the rules. The other may or may not be "starting before the starting signal" so may or may not be against the rules.

[Judge Dredd]

Originally Posted by chris_lamb

Yep, one is definetely "starting before the starting signal" and is definetely against the rules. The other may or may not be "starting before the starting signal" so may or may not be against the rules.

Agreed. What about the 16-year-old who moves backwards to brace/spring, just before the signal? Also, what about the over-balance that goes too far and falls in - is that a deliberate attempt to start? All need an element of judgement.

[Oldsparky]

GF & JD totally agree here. If the stroke is obviously poor and illegal throughout, then absolutely, it is an easy decision. But often the youngsters are swimming a 25M fly leg of a relay for the first time in their first competition. It's like the Olympics to them. Coach has 'picked' them because they are the best over that distance and to give them a chance of some early competition experience. Many club's championships now exclude the previously popular 25M fly 'encourager' event fot the littlies as it doesn't fit with county qualifying etc.

As always, we are 'judges' so, no matter our official qualification or length of experience, and we will always have slightly differing opinions. The aim is to be fair and reasonable to all competitors, as noted earlier in the thread. One must not disadvantage the athlete who is doing it correctly just because one wants to give little Johnny the benefit of the doubt on a dubious stroke!

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Absolutely. But there is a fine balance between strict application of the rules (and we're back to the original post in the thread here which could have yeilded a far different outcome) and applying measured judgement to the circumstances whatever they may be.

BTW totally agree about the 200 Fly thing. Tantamount to child cruelty

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by Oldsparky

One must not disadvantage the athlete who is doing it correctly just because one wants to give little Johnny the benefit of the doubt on a dubious stroke!

Yes, you must. If there is any doubt then you must give the swimmer the benefit of the doubt. If the stroke is just dubious they don't get disqualified. They only get disqualified if you are certain they have broken the rules.

[GettingFaster]

Club champs organisers can include whatever they want in their event, including 25m fly. Our club allows even the very youngest swimmers to take part, and every competitive swimmer in the club is given the core events that they should enter, depending on their level of development (not age). They can enter any other event they want to as well, taking guidance from their coaches. The earliest squads tend to be instructed to enter the 4 x 25m events as a minimum, and perhaps 50 free (can't remember exactly) and the coaches let each child know what else they should enter, depending on their individual abilities. Non-competitive squads don't have any fixed events they have to do.

That 25m fly is a tricky one as lots of the kids have never done a swimming competition ever, so they're nervous before the start, and forget what stroke they're supposed to be doing, but the coaches do a great job in reminding them of the basics just before they get on the blocks (you know the kind of thing - "Right, this is one length of breaststroke, so how many hands do you touch with at the end?") encouraging the kids and helping to explain what it was they did wrong when they get DQed. Which they do.

[Oldsparky]

Chris - sorry lost in translation here - you are quite correct and that was not the meaning I intended to infer. As I said, if it's wrong then it's wrong.

If you're not sure then it's taken as correct. I was trying to say 'Just don't try to convince yourself it's correct when it isnt!'