Relay Teams

[Swim-ma]

I think there should be two sets of records to give non-conglomerate clubs a chance to win, - I think this has been raised before.
As in school swimming at primary level where there are separate events for 'small schools' to give them a chance to compete against a similar field.

[adamlelean]

I'll attempt to ignore any comparisons between relay teams and football teams.

I'm from a small club that even in our county championships only has 10 swimmers. We'd be lucky to get 4 to travel anywhere outside the county.

There are a couple of bigger clubs in the county, but one of them doesn't generally compete, and the other has a strict policy on swimmers training with the club. Given a 40 minute (one way) travel time and 5:30 am training this just isn't practical.

Even then Birmingham has a higher population than Norfolk, so even if all of the Norfolk clubs joined together they would still be at a disadvantage.

Why can't people accept life is unfair and just live with it ?

[racheybabes]

A long while ago a team from Borough of Kirklees went to the World champs and did the 4x50m free team. They came third behind two Brazilian top class conglomerate teams. I quite like the fact that 4 likely lads from Huddersfield managed to get a medal in and amongst that kind of competition.

[saturdaynighter]

Isn't any Club Team event an irrelevance (except for the winning Team, of course)?
My kids happened to swim for a small, parochial club that had two or three awesome swimmers. They won Nationals, largely through the efforts of their future Olympians - it was really exciting, but if a single top swimmer had moved to Birmingham, Leeds, or Nottingham the results would have been reversed.

Relax, enjoy, but (in the greater scheme of things) it's a sign of strength, but not the be-all and end-all.

[Old Fart]

Originally Posted by saturdaynighter

Isn't any Club Team event an irrelevance (except for the winning Team, of course)?
My kids happened to swim for a small, parochial club that had two or three awesome swimmers. They won Nationals, largely through the efforts of their future Olympians - it was really exciting, but if a single top swimmer had moved to Birmingham, Leeds, or Nottingham the results would have been reversed.

Relax, enjoy, but (in the greater scheme of things) it's a sign of strength, but not the be-all and end-all.

I think you are missing the point. Some clubs are enroling swimmers who live hundreds of miles away from their base, and who never train with them, just so they can win a medal at Nationals or break records.
As I pointed out at the very begining, Spencer even had a member of their team from another country.
What hope does this give to the club who enter a team who all live near to the base pool, and who all train together.
A hell of a lot more satisfaction than a team that has been cobbled together by someone who is good over the phone!!

[adamlelean]

Originally Posted by Old Fart

I think you are missing the point. Some clubs are enroling swimmers who live hundreds of miles away from their base, and who never train with them, just so they can win a medal at Nationals or break records.
As I pointed out at the very begining, Spencer even had a member of their team from another country.
What hope does this give to the club who enter a team who all live near to the base pool, and who all train together.
A hell of a lot more satisfaction than a team that has been cobbled together by someone who is good over the phone!!

Do you know that to be the case ?
I do not question the fact that Spencer had a team member from another country. What I'm asking is how do you know the motivation ? Some swimmers refuse to swim in relays because it might affect their individual swims. Others when given the chance to swim any relay team will grab the opportunity.

[Old Fart]

Originally Posted by adamlelean

Do you know that to be the case ?
I do not question the fact that Spencer had a team member from another country. What I'm asking is how do you know the motivation ? Some swimmers refuse to swim in relays because it might affect their individual swims. Others when given the chance to swim any relay team will grab the opportunity.

Come on Adam, get real. We all know what is going on.

[manic porpoise]

I don't have a problem with a swimmer joining a team to have the opportunity to swim a relay. It's not practical for most people to move house or even travel many miles to training just to find some teammates so they can swim a relay.

There are ten relay events available to each swimmer at nationals (5 for their gender and 5 mixed teams). This gives plenty of record and medal opportunities. I'm guessing the non-GB swimmer on the Spencer team didn't swim all ten relays.

[Alan Rowson]

A quick analysis of British records show

Short course relay records, there are 93 records established

Spencer hold 13,
Trafford hold 10
GB Police hold 9
Otter hold 9
etc.

Long course relay records, there are 88 records established

Spencer hold 23,
Trafford hold 8
GB Police hold 7
Otter hold 7
HEART OF ENG hold 7
etc.

Heart of England have not competed since 2008. 31 of Spencer's records are held in 240-279 and 280-319 age groups perhaps difficult to find any "genuine club" that can field enough swimmers in these age groups.

I can only voucher for Trafford, all swimmers in the above record swims train at our Trafford pool.

I don’t know about others I would guess GB Police don’t train together, but assume they have some link to constitute a team.

Can anyone say which clubs they think are advertising for/recruiting swimmers to make up their relay teams outside their immediate area

[city4nil]

Originally Posted by Alan Rowson

A quick analysis of British records show

Short course relay records, there are 93 records established

Spencer hold 13,
Trafford hold 10
GB Police hold 9
Otter hold 9
etc.

Long course relay records, there are 88 records established

Spencer hold 23,
Trafford hold 8
GB Police hold 7
Otter hold 7
HEART OF ENG hold 7
etc.

Heart of England have not competed since 2008. 31 of Spencer's records are held in 240-279 and 280-319 age groups perhaps difficult to find any "genuine club" that can field enough swimmers in these age groups.

I can only voucher for Trafford, all swimmers in the above record swims train at our Trafford pool.

I don’t know about others I would guess GB Police don’t train together, but assume they have some link to constitute a team.

Can anyone say which clubs they think are advertising for/recruiting swimmers to make up their relay teams outside their immediate area

Swimming is swimming, if you are lucky enough to live near a successful team age, youth, open, masters that should be seen as a bonus it certainly should never be the main criteria for selection. Not discounting the part that the feeling of belonging and community, kinship etc adds to a team, but if your team doesn't have the geography, the facilities, the history or whatever other characteristic draws competitve swimmers why should that stop you adding value to your team by including other like minded swimmers who may be similarly disadvantaged or just gel better in your team.

I have scoured the swimming times for years and have yet to find an advert that could even remotely be seen as part of a recruitment campaign and I am finding it tiresome to listen to this old story line.

[NotVeryFast]

Originally Posted by Alan Rowson

31 of Spencer's records are held in 240-279 and 280-319 age groups perhaps difficult to find any "genuine club" that can field enough swimmers in these age groups.

Can anyone say which clubs they think are advertising for/recruiting swimmers to make up their relay teams outside their immediate area

As an ex-Spencer swimmer, I can say that as far as I'm aware, the younger swimmers are all local to the club's training locations, and the fuss that is being made is over a small number of older swimmers. As you point out, there will be very few "genuine" clubs that can provide the opportunity to form a relay team for those older age groups, so personally I welcome the fact that those swimmers are being catered for.

[pzzszk]

There are 2 completely separate topics (ideas for rule changes) being discussed here. You need to isolate one from the other in order to have a rational debate.

Change 1
As I understand it, one change idea is to allow Masters to swim (at the same competition) for one club in individual events and for another club for relay events. This is an intriguing idea & will allow some flexibility in some situations, but will also certainly help super-clubs grow their relay teams. Not sure that this idea is completely thought through yet. Maybe a limitation that it wouldn't be be allowed if both clubs entered a relay team in that event? This idea for rule change does not propose any changes to record setting criteria for relays.

Change 2
The other change idea is to enable non-British citizens to be able to set British records. As I understand it, the criteria that would be associated with this rule change would only allow Masters registered with British clubs who have Permanent Resident status from the government to be able to set British Records (i.e. they are a registered member of an ASA registered club, they have already been a resident for more than 5 years & their application for permanent residency was approved by the government) to be allowed to set British Records. I would have thought that 5 years residency plus approval from the government would be an adequate control mechanism to ensure that the spirit of it isn't abused.

These two topics really need to be discussed/debated separately, as they are completely different topics.

[Leprechaun]

Originally Posted by pzzszk

There are 2 completely separate topics (ideas for rule changes) being discussed here. You need to isolate one from the other in order to have a rational debate.

Change 1
As I understand it, one change idea is to allow Masters to swim (at the same competition) for one club in individual events and for another club for relay events. This is an intriguing idea & will allow some flexibility in some situations, but will also certainly help super-clubs grow their relay teams. Not sure that this idea is completely thought through yet. Maybe a limitation that it wouldn't be be allowed if both clubs entered a relay team in that event? This idea for rule change does not propose any changes to record setting criteria for relays.

Change 2
The other change idea is to enable non-British citizens to be able to set British records. As I understand it, the criteria that would be associated with this rule change would only allow Masters registered with British clubs who have Permanent Resident status from the government to be able to set British Records (i.e. they are a registered member of an ASA registered club, they have already been a resident for more than 5 years & their application for permanent residency was approved by the government) to be allowed to set British Records. I would have thought that 5 years residency plus approval from the government would be an adequate control mechanism to ensure that the spirit of it isn't abused.

These two topics really need to be discussed/debated separately, as they are completely different topics.

Welcome to the debate...

You're right, they are two separate issues and part of the problem is the lack of clear communication from HQ.

Change 1 equates to "One Club per Swimmer per Meet" vs "More (Two) than One Club per Swimmer per Meet".

I dont think anyone disputes the right of a swimmer to belong to more than one club - I have 4 plus 1 overseas body last time I counted. No-one disputes that you might choose to swim for one or other at various meets during the year - your choice. The dispute is "two or more clubs at one meet". As I said on another thread, its hard to see people get together in a relay made up from loners for a purpose other than to win (and hence deprive "legitimate" clubs).

Change 2 is whether non-UK citizens should be allowed to be part of a Bristish-record-breaking team. I think there's wide consensus that non-Uk swimmers shouldnt be able to set a relay record, its just a matter of how/where to draw the line. Permanent UK residence is one suggestion, many swimmers I have spoken to suggest something simple - UK passport holders. Not sure why this isnt a simple and adequate solution?

The third dispute is how to move forward. Unfortunately with several of the Masters Committee being beneficiaries of the medals and records gained as members of superclubs, its hard to see any motivation from them to a) listen to the majority who arent in superclubs and b) change anything that doesnt personally suit them

[pzzszk]

For clarity - citizenship is exactly the same as Passport holder. They are synonyms.

More information:
FINA rules are silent on the topic of 'who' is eligible to set Masters National Records. However, at the European & world level, FINA rules state that the record is recorded in the nationality of the club, not in the nationality of the swimmer. So, if a 'Canadian' swimmer permanently living, training & competing in the UK breaks a European record (and by inference the British record as well) he/she can set a new European record (which will be recorded as being set by a UK swimmer) but will not be able to set a new British record (due to the absence of UK citizenship. This can't be the right answer.

In a survey of 30 major FINA countries around the world, approximately 50% set their Masters 'national record setting eligibility rules' as being citizens only and 50% set their 'national record setting eligibility rules' based upon citizens plus permanent residents. A few are even more relaxed than that, but they aren't relevant to the debate. So, there is no clear consensus of practice amongst countries (nor across Europe) and FINA is silent.

There are many, many reasons why someone living in one country doesn't want to change nationality to that of the country where they are permanently living. It can be family, personal, cultural, etc, etc. It is not reasonable to assume that "they should just change nationality, because.....".

As an example, if a Masters swimmer has been living in the UK for 20 years as a permanent resident, raised a family and is training & competing here - I can't see the logic of why he/she should be excluded from the opportunity to set UK national records.

He/she can do so in many countries around the world, just not in the UK.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Leprechaun

.....whether non-UK citizens should be allowed to be part of a Bristish-record-breaking team. I think there's wide consensus that non-Uk swimmers shouldnt be able to set a relay record, its just a matter of how/where to draw the line. Permanent UK residence is one suggestion, many swimmers I have spoken to suggest something simple - UK passport holders. Not sure why this isnt a simple and adequate solution?

Is British eligibility not defined by British Swimming? Why change that?

Just to throw something else in. On a National and Junior level (don't know about Masters), in Scotland we have National records and Club records for relays. For a National record, all members of the team must fulfil all requirements for eligibility, but for Club records the members must simply be members of the Club. Thus we have had Club records with English, Welsh and Belarusian swimmers.