DoB discrimination - age group nationals

[BIGBrian]

Originally Posted by oswim

I have found birthdays a nightmare for swimmers and a lot of people base sucess on gold medals! older daughter a few years ago birthday july managed a bronze at age groups amazing achievement, had she been 4 weeks younger would have had 3 golds! Fellow swimmer in same club got 3 golds with birthday 10 days later!
Got back home massive fuss made of gold medals bronze hardly mentioned head down hard to motivate again for british age groups as daughter felt whats the point.

What I would love is 2 age groups in year one july and one january say one LC and one SC perhaps and that would let a bad bithday shine in another competition hard I know with a busy schedule. All swimmers who are planning children have it in August/september and they will do well!!!

As AW said, I've advocated this before. Bin the Zonals in January and replace them with another Nationals (SC sounds like a good idea) with age at sometime in January.

I'm very against the age at 31 December idea. If it was only going to apply to the (July) nationals, then maybe fair enough, but it would inevitably flow down to Regionals, and then surely Counties and open meets as well.

The argument goes that, wherever you put the cut off, you're always going to be disadvantaging someone. If you have the cut off date for Nationals based on age as at the date of the competition (in late July), you're always going to be disadvantaging swimmers with birthdays in early July, but they have the benefit of it in the Regionals. There are other competitions out there apart from the Nationals. Some swimmers are disadvantaged for Regionals, but benefit from it at County level. The disadvantage gets spread around the year.

But when every competition ends up with the same cut off date (31 December), you're always going to be disadvantaging the same swimmers at every competition they enter (those with a birthday at the end of the year). For Youth competitions this is less of an issue (although single year age bands, please!) but for Age Group swimmers, if you have to swim, all the time, at every competition, against swimmers who are almost a year older than you, it makes a big difference.

It's very disheartening for a 10 year old who's going to turn 11 in, say, December, to spend the whole of the year competing against swimmers who have been 11 since January. And then when you get to be 11, the rug gets pulled out from under your feet again the following month, and for the next year from January you have to compete as a 12 year old for the whole year.

[Tatter]

Originally Posted by BIGBrian

As AW said, I've advocated this before. Bin the Zonals in January and replace them with another Nationals (SC sounds like a good idea) with age at sometime in January.

I'm very against the age at 31 December idea. If it was only going to apply to the (July) nationals, then maybe fair enough, but it would inevitably flow down to Regionals, and then surely Counties and open meets as well.

Looks like the West Mids coaches agree. From:
http://www.westmidlandswimming.org.u...=407&Itemid=54

Age on day was also discussed and it was felt that a move nationally to bring the Nationals in line with British Championships was good. Age as at the end of the meet was agreed for every other competition, but whether the ASA/BS bring regional and county championships back to age as at the end of the year to fall into line with nationals remains to be seen.

The concept of a return to the Winter Nationals was discussed and agreed as being a good idea with the support of the Forum.

[Swim-ma]

I thought the move to age on day of competition rather than Dec 31st, several years ago now, was implemented to vary the field of competition throughout the year so you didn't always swim against the same swimmers at every competition, & as BB says, the Dec birthdays always swimming against January born swimmers.
My youngest has a December birthday & was always against several swimmers from our club who were 11 months older. Even worse in double year age bands when they were 23 months older!
As you say at least the disadvantage is shared around a bit with age at day.

[city4nil]

Originally Posted by Analyst

It would be interesting to see if that research was in the UK or worldwide. I can see that in the UK autumn birthdays might be better because of the school year syndrome - who gets picked first in school teams etc - yep the bigger (hence, statistically, older as well) kids get selected first - probably more coordinated as well. Also possibly the younger you are in a school year the more academically 'behind' you are and so while struggling to keep up academically you have less time for sport?

The more opportunities/encouragement you're given when you're young the more likely you are to succeed so it all becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.

My daughter swims because when she was very little she had a clear aptitude for it . Her birthday is in the diabolic column but despite this she has done quite well.

So many other factors matter and there is no recipe, but if you don't have whatever it is that makes some people able to succeed in this tough sport it is a bit lame to blame it on your parents lack of planning.

[BIGBrian]

Originally Posted by city4nil

My daughter swims because when she was very little she had a clear aptitude for it . Her birthday is in the diabolic column but despite this she has done quite well.

So many other factors matter and there is no recipe, but if you don't have whatever it is that makes some people able to succeed in this tough sport it is a bit lame to blame it on your parents lack of planning.

With the greatest of respect..... bollox

There are plenty of swimmers who, at 15/16, are succeeding at the highest levels when at 11/12 they weren't on anybody's radar. Therefore, it must be inevitable that there have been other swimmers who gave up before getting to 15/16 because they got fed up getting beaten when they were 11/12.

Here's a good idea.....why not have a qualification strategy for Nationals/Regionals/whatever that keeps swimmers in the pool for longer, so you can actually see who really is the best around at 15/16, not just the best of who's left in the water?

[city4nil]

Originally Posted by BIGBrian

With the greatest of respect..... bollox

There are plenty of swimmers who, at 15/16, are succeeding at the highest levels when at 11/12 they weren't on anybody's radar. Therefore, it must be inevitable that there have been other swimmers who gave up before getting to 15/16 because they got fed up getting beaten when they were 11/12.

Here's a good idea.....why not have a qualification strategy for Nationals/Regionals/whatever that keeps swimmers in the pool for longer, so you can actually see who really is the best around at 15/16, not just the best of who's left in the water?

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken, it in truth is all but an insignificant blip in a swimmers career and imo early Gold medals and the reality that the buzz soon wears off, there are no fanfares once you get home you are the same person. I believe it is far more motivation for the vast majority who keep failing yet keep trying.

There is no endless analysis required to statistically misrepresent anything as this is a statement of the obvious.

[BIGBrian]

Originally Posted by city4nil

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken,

I entirely agree, but I'm not 11. It's too easy to say that, when you gave up at 13/14 because you have a bad birthday, you obviously didn't have what it takes in the first place.

There are plenty that come through later than that. But they need to still be there to come through. It's a fact that we lose too many potentially top class swimmers before they realise what their full potential actually is.

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by city4nil

But in reality this sport is about getting beat, if you find that tough this sport is going to be hard to get anywhere in, you have to find your own goals and objectives.

If your birthday makrs it tough at Nationals you should be well positioned at Regionals and if that's bad too then Counties.

If all else fails then pick open meets that suit your birthday, but what then tbh is your plan for school?

I think trying to be constructive and looking for realistic targets after viewing the obstacles and the competition sometimes is the route to keeping swimmers involved, regardless of there ability level.
But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken, it in truth is all but an insignificant blip in a swimmers career and imo early Gold medals and the reality that the buzz soon wears off, there are no fanfares once you get home you are the same person. I believe it is far more motivation for the vast majority who keep failing yet keep trying.

There speaks a man who has never seen just 12 year olds shattered as they watch slower swimmers go off to Nationals.!!

You try telling them there's other goals , they understand one thing 'its not fair'.

And either quit or get a sense of humour....I suspect most quit.

Originally Posted by city4nil

There is no endless analysis required to statistically misrepresent anything as this is a statement of the obvious.

Not only does that not make any sense , what your trying to convey as 'obvious' is a fallacy. the establishment makes 'Nationals' the pinnacle for young swimmers so there is no alternative.

[Analyst]

Originally Posted by city4nil

But with all due respect anyone who thinks there is radar on 11/12 year olds is mistaken

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.

Those that are very successful at 9/10/11 are often just precocious and by 13/14 everyone else has caught up but no doubt a proportion of those who were less successful at a young age (but might have matured at 13/14/15/16/17/18) have been disenfranchised and moved to other sports. The objective must be to keep all swimming so that the late developers are still in the pool.

[comeondarlo]

Loads more debate but still no answer!

Personally I side with City4

[BIGBrian]

Originally Posted by Analyst

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.

Those that are very successful at 9/10/11 are often just precocious and by 13/14 everyone else has caught up but no doubt a proportion of those who were less successful at a young age (but might have matured at 13/14/15/16/17/18) have been disenfranchised and moved to other sports. The objective must be to keep all swimming so that the late developers are still in the pool.

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Analyst

There is certainly a 'peer group' and coach radar on 11/12 year olds. If you don't get an NQT you are not on anyone's radar. Same times but 3 weeks older so not an NQT do you get the same attention - no! everyone rates you in relation to championships and nationals is the biggest.
.

I wonder where we'd be if talent was spotted in a non haphazard manner (age/size).

Where would Rebecca Adlington be if her brilliant 200 fly was noted and acted on in her development , Was it missed as a direct result of her birth-date.?

Is there reason Britain struggles to develop international standard Breaststroke and Flyers a direct result of a policy that favors those strokes that are easier (points and entry times favor back and free for young swimmers)

[noeyedear]

Scrap age group nationals...

They are just a way of massaging the coaches egos anyway. Far too much focus and pressure causing more catastrophic failure in the young swimmers when they don't reach this 'pinnacle'. Sport should be fun at this age.

[Tatter]

Originally Posted by noeyedear

Scrap age group nationals...

Gets my vote! It would also force coaches/beacon programmes to look at the swimmer and not just National results (Either that or substitute it with another lazy criteria like Regional Finalist).

[Linny]

Originally Posted by Tatter

Gets my vote! It would also force coaches/beacon programmes to look at the swimmer and not just National results (Either that or substitute it with another lazy criteria like Regional Finalist).

Mine too.

If the youngest age group is 13 (and under?) or 14 (and under?) then this reduces the impact of where in the year a child is born for one off annual competitions.