Getting result data from a meet

[noeyedear]

Is it possible to get a copy of the place judges report and timings from both the pads and any manual overrides from a specific event at a meet ?

If so, how should I ask for it, what are the correct technical terms ? The meet was run using Sportsystems.

cheers

[chris_lamb]

Depends why you want it and why the official result isn't sufficient. You'd have to start with the promoter but I'd be surprised if they would be prepared to give it to you unless you've got a good reason for wanting it.

[BIGBrian]

Originally Posted by chris_lamb

Depends why you want it and why the official result isn't sufficient. You'd have to start with the promoter but I'd be surprised if they would be prepared to give it to you unless you've got a good reason for wanting it.

I appreciate that the OPs question suggests that it's too late to protest the result, but would someone lodging a protest at the time during the appropriate timeframe be entitled to see the information requested?

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by BIGBrian

I appreciate that the OPs question suggests that it's too late to protest the result, but would someone lodging a protest at the time during the appropriate timeframe be entitled to see the information requested?

No, I don't believe they would. Specifically because ASA Law 101.4 says:

A protest may not be made against a decision of a referee or any other
official regarding placing, fouling or any other facts of a competition.

So IMO if the referee decides the AOE operated correctly then this is a fact of the competition and not subject to protest. If the referee decides that the AOE hasn't worked correctly again this would seem to be a fact of the competition and it then comes down to placings which again are not subject to protest.

Of course in the majority of situations I would expect the referee to be prepared to explain their decisions to anyone who has an interest which may include showing them the paperwork and explaining the decisions.

[noeyedear]

Thanks, I have no intention of lodging a protest, all that was at stake was a Regional gold medal and possibly an age group national time so not quite an Olympic medal ;-) I just want to know if the times were taken form the manual backup or the pads and what the place judges decision was. There is a video of the event and several people have pointed out that the decision did not look right.

I do know that video is often deceiving but it does look like a fairly significant margin between 2 swimmers which the results do not reflect and I just want to know why.

[Tatter]

The following is only what I have been told. I do not profess to be an expert in the rules and I am happy to be corrected.

Fina rules state that the AOE timings should be used UNLESS there is a failure/fault in the equipment. However, many operators override the AOE time when the finish judge places swimmers differently. This happens more often than many people think as the pads do not always register a soft touch, hence top swimmers injuring fingers when jabbing at the finish. There was one Phelps win that was given because AOE showed a faster time, but the video replays showed the silver medallist touching first (Korzeniowski I think).

Personally, I would take the finish judges decision as:
a) They know the rules far better than I.
b) If there is any contention, I have the judge's notes to refer to.
c) Officials are volunteers and with few around. I'm just grateful we have one for our meet.
d) They do a very difficult job and I trust their judgement over mine. I can only think of one very experienced operator that I would believe in preference to a judges call.

As far as I am aware video evidence can not be used by the finish judge, even in high profile televised events.

Some promoters do keep the paperwork after the event, it may be worth a go. Ideally it should be done as soon as possible while everything is still to hand. You could ask for a copy of the AOE print with judge's corrections or timecards if used. SportSystems will not have the original AOE time as it would have been overwritten. Just politely ask for the reason why AOE timing was not used.

I have had queries at meet I was helping with & a polite word from parents was never a problem. Sometimes it was a keying error (We are humans with fat fingers), but usually it was because of a judges decision. Once it was explained there was never a complaint.

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by noeyedear

Thanks, I have no intention of lodging a protest, all that was at stake was a Regional gold medal and possibly an age group national time so not quite an Olympic medal ;-) I just want to know if the times were taken form the manual backup or the pads and what the place judges decision was. There is a video of the event and several people have pointed out that the decision did not look right.

I do know that video is often deceiving but it does look like a fairly significant margin between 2 swimmers which the results do not reflect and I just want to know why.

I think your on a hiding to nothing.

Let assume the main timing was wrong and the place judge had a turn.

So you have a backup time given that places x 2nd the place judge has also places swimmer X 2nd (for this must be true to have a ratified finish)

When the truth is swimmer X finished ahead of swimmer Y ... Now once you established this what time do you give swimmer X .?

As there is no manual timing recorded (as AOE was declared correct) and the Backup is obviously wrong.

Nope unfortunately after the fact there is no fixing...Your reliant on the official of the moment spotting and correcting which 99.999% of the time they do.

I don't think anyone could award a time now that would stand for AGNQT

[noeyedear]

Originally Posted by awaldram

I think your on a hiding to nothing.

Let assume the main timing was wrong and the place judge had a turn.

So you have a backup time given that places x 2nd the place judge has also places swimmer X 2nd (for this must be true to have a ratified finish)

When the truth is swimmer X finished ahead of swimmer Y ... Now once you established this what time do you give swimmer X .?

As there is no manual timing recorded (as AOE was declared correct) and the Backup is obviously wrong.

Nope unfortunately after the fact there is no fixing...Your reliant on the official of the moment spotting and correcting which 99.999% of the time they do.

I don't think anyone could award a time now that would stand for AGNQT

Thanks but I don't expect anything to be changed, it really isn't important enough to make a big deal of it, I just want to know what caused the result to be declared the way it was.

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by Tatter

Personally, I would take the finish judges decision as:
a) They know the rules far better than I.
b) If there is any contention, I have the judge's notes to refer to.
c) Officials are volunteers and with few around. I'm just grateful we have one for our meet.
d) They do a very difficult job and I trust their judgement over mine. I can only think of one very experienced operator that I would believe in preference to a judges call.

I guess you're not a referee It's the referee's job to decide if the AOE works not the AOE operator and hopefully they know the rules.

Whenever an AOE operator modifies the time that is subject to the decision of the referee and they should always be informing the referee what they have done. There are very good reasons for operators changing times (such as when the primary pad time isn't recorded or is very obviously wrong) but the referee has to confirm what they have done.

The finish judges placings are irrelevant unless the AOE hasn't operated correctly. At high level meets with reliable AOE the finish judges won't even be consulted unless there is some doubt about the AOE. At lower level meets with less reliable equipment the finish judges placings will help the referee decide if the AOE worked correctly.

One thing I've learnt from using reliable AOE is how often finish judges are wrong. I'm now much more likely to put down equal placings as a finish judge when I generally don't know who touched first than before AOE was as widely available as it is now.

Originally Posted by Tatter

As far as I am aware video evidence can not be used by the finish judge, even in high profile televised events.

The only time video evidence can currently be used is for deciding the finish order. You may notice that at the British Champs in March and at the Olympics there won't be timekeepers (although there will be judges at the end of each lane) and no AOE backup buttons will be in use. This is because there will be cameras above the lanes calibrated to 1/100 second and in sync with the timing equipment. These cameras (and only these cameras, not the TV cameras) can be used if a pad doesn't register in order to determine the finish order.

There are some interesting pictures from Beijing showing the video cameras in use: http://www.swatchgroup.com/en/servic..._great_moments