DoB discrimination - age group nationals

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Champinprogress

Good Job nobody told Matthew Johnson and James Guy in the European Juniors, they may not have got on the plane (Silver & Bronze 400m Free) both 95 born in 94/95 age group.

But what has age group swimming to do with either of these 17 year olds.?

I think you've missed the thrust of the discussion.!

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau and as such I would expect the best of a younger age group to attain a decent standard against a year above.
As per the discussion I stated you had to achieve British record standard to escape the age trap.

Let look at some 14 year British records

200m FREESTYLE 01:53.63 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 25th July 2009
400m FREESTYLE 03:59.84 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 22nd July 2009
800m FREESTYLE 08:15.87 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
1500m FREESTYLE 15:36.11 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
200m BACKSTROKE 02:07.21 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 24th July 2009
200m BUTTERFLY 02:02.67 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 29th March 2010
200m IND. MEDLEY 02:08.19 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 23rd July 2009
400m IND. MEDLEY 04:23.51 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 2nd April 2010

So you have admirably proved my point.

[Pink Paraffin]

Originally Posted by awaldram

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau.

What is 'The Plateau' please? And which graph? Thanks

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Pink Paraffin

What is 'The Plateau' please? And which graph? Thanks

Plateau (mathematics), a region where a function is constant

The graph on the the first page of this thread ??
http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15531

[Linny]

Here is a link to some more graphs.

Without doubt a favourable birthday affects swimmers during their age group years.

If you look at the graphs of the Youths on the following post, you will see that the benefits of a favourable birthday have waned and even the dual age band affects only the youngest in the younger year.

I have never made graphs of birth dates of senior swimmers but I don't believe (from the older youth graphs) that these will show that the advantage or disadvantage of birthdate within a year is of any relevance by then (other than the predominance of pisceans which I suggested well before this recent American study).

Awaldram, I don't believe that the long term disadvantage that you are suggesting is borne out. This may be because there are other selections AND meets that are already age at 31 December and this offsets the advantages and disadvantages and that is why I think National events should remain as age on day (albeit once swimmers are over their pre-teen years at least).

[Champinprogress]

Originally Posted by awaldram

But what has age group swimming to do with either of these 17 year olds.?

I think you've missed the thrust of the discussion.!

If you look at the graph 17 year old are approaching the Plateau and as such I would expect the best of a younger age group to attain a decent standard against a year above.
As per the discussion I stated you had to achieve British record standard to escape the age trap.

Let look at some 14 year British records

200m FREESTYLE 01:53.63 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 25th July 2009
400m FREESTYLE 03:59.84 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 22nd July 2009
800m FREESTYLE 08:15.87 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
1500m FREESTYLE 15:36.11 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 3rd April 2010
200m BACKSTROKE 02:07.21 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 24th July 2009
200m BUTTERFLY 02:02.67 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 29th March 2010
200m IND. MEDLEY 02:08.19 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 23rd July 2009
400m IND. MEDLEY 04:23.51 Matthew Johnson City of Sheffield Sheffield 2nd April 2010

So you have admirably proved my point.

Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

[swimbar]

Originally Posted by Champinprogress

Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

You missed out Coaches but otherwise spot on. In every walk of life there are winners & losers. Some people just don't want to accept that!

[clipboard]

Originally Posted by swimbar

In every walk of life there are winners & losers.

Well said swimbar. It is quality that counts regardless of age if you are good enough you will be a WINNER.

[Tatter]

After reading this thread the door opened & closed.
I wondered what caused this, I think it was my will to live and faith in humanity leaving.

[Pink Paraffin]

Originally Posted by awaldram

Plateau (mathematics), a region where a function is constant

The graph on the the first page of this thread ??
http://www.swimclub.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=15531

OK are we basing all of this discussion on this particular graph? What is its credibility? Over how many years was this data collected? In which nations? Male/female/both? Event specific?

And I know what 'a plateau' is. But you referred to 'the plateau' which sounds quite definitive. What is this please - in relation to this all-singing all-dancing graph perhaps?

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Champinprogress

Lets see, my understanding of the thrust of this discussion - parents, probably dad's, whose kids have not qualified for National's coming up with statistical and/or scientific reasons as to why their offspring have been disadvantaged rather than accepting that they are just not good enough.

Probably not your intention, but exactly as you are coming across.

Well going by the Title "DoB discrimination - age group nationals "

I would say its a discussion on whether Date of Birth discriminates for Age Group Nationals.

As to your allegation of self interest I note that the majority of respondents both for and against the theory ( including myself) do not have AGe group children.

So whatever it looks like mine and others interest in this is not related to personal self gain.

I would also counter maybe those so strangely opposed to the data have teens in the comfort zone and wish to believe their better than perhaps they are?

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Pink Paraffin

OK are we basing all of this discussion on this particular graph? What is its credibility? Over how many years was this data collected? In which nations? Male/female/both? Event specific?

And I know what 'a plateau' is. But you referred to 'the plateau' which sounds quite definitive. What is this please - in relation to this all-singing all-dancing graph perhaps?

Not sure why your getting so het up.

The figures are available for all swimmers from 1997 if you don't believe the graphs then get the facts yourself and present your argument.

Check out the graph Linny referred to they all show the same early teen swimmers are disadvantaged by birth date.

[Laugh Out Loud]

Problem will always be there move the date and it just affects someone else, as I have told my kids a bad birthday is actually better as you are not lulled into a false sense of security thinking you are better than you really are cos of a good birthday then when it becomes a level playing field you get beaten!

I always say make a final or nearly do and if you have a bad birthday you have done really well. My daughter at the scottish age groups had to swim as a 14 year old while still 13 but just got on with it and managed to make finals few days earlier she would have had golds but thats life and she just got on with it.

[Linny]

Originally Posted by awaldram

Not sure why your getting so het up.

The figures are available for all swimmers from 1997 if you don't believe the graphs then get the facts yourself and present your argument.

Check out the graph Linny referred to they all show the same early teen swimmers are disadvantaged by birth date.

My point in posting was to suggest that the undeniable disadvantage that younger age group swimmers face does not in itself lead to them quitting the sport in droves. If it did, we would see fewer May, June and July birthday swimmers in youth and senior swimming because they would have quit as age groupers. We just don't see that. I am sure that for every "young in year swimmer" that gives up because they aren't as fast as "old in year swimmers" there is another who uses it and gets better for the following year.

[awaldram]

Originally Posted by Linny

My point in posting was to suggest that the undeniable disadvantage that younger age group swimmers face does not in itself lead to them quitting the sport in droves. If it did, we would see fewer May, June and July birthday swimmers in youth and senior swimming because they would have quit as age groupers. We just don't see that. I am sure that for every "young in year swimmer" that gives up because they aren't as fast as "old in year swimmers" there is another who uses it and gets better for the following year.

I think your could be right those that stick to it tend to have the right mental attitude to succeed so a higher percentage make it to top level swimming.

My point was really if you've removed the 2nd tier of swimmers just who is pushing the 1st tier competitively.

At what point does it become non-viable to run an age band competition , if you only have 10 12 year olds the what point heats and finals.?

I suppose I'm extending BS development policy to its logical conclusion when the 'best' are no longer good enough, feels like all eggs in one basket to me.

There is also an argument that give them everything to early and they'll quit because they've done everything.

This IMO is one of the issues with young upcoming female swimmers.

[400IMer]

What ever happened to the talent ID schemes. Seemed a good idea. Also don't know if anyone else remembers in Swimming times about 8-10 years ago a photo of some girls who had been identified as being talented by Bill S and his staff. Can't remember the names of the swimmers, Adlington, Halsall, Lowe, Gandy... what ever happened to these swimmers?