Composite Clubs/Squads

[jaygee]

One of the threads mentioned Composite Clubs. This has been a bone of contention from the days long ago when I was still swimming!
What is the opinion now?
I was in a small club that amalgamated with several others. This way we got a top class coach and the Club went on to become one of the best in the country.
Now, with my own children swimming I see the debate has not gone away?
What are the opinions of coaches and swimmers?
My feelings are smaller clubs are great for bringing swimmers on, but later the composite clubs have more "pull" with councils, sponsers etc .,therefore often have better training facilities and can afford more experienced coaches.
They can streamline their top swimmers where the smaller clubs top squads often have a mixture of swimmers who enjoy competing but will go no further than district and those who are National level. There is a place for both types but debatably not training together. it must be frustrating for both types of swimmers and the coach!! Financially though the pool must be filled!
I am not up to date with how many of these teams work- It seems to vary from area to area.
Any opinions ?

[Mac]

There are two separate issues here: one is groups of clubs joining together for the purpose of competing as a single entity mainly in National competitions (eg East Essex, T5, Durham UA); the other is local clubs merging to form one sinlge (larger) club.

On the first point (which has already been mentoned in the other thread) my view is that unless the groupings do actually pool resources (eg know-how, pool time) and train together with some regularity then there is little point and certainly nothing of any consequence is achieved. The only real advantage would be to enable the comined entitle to have more success in relay events. I would be interested to hear ehat those who have had involvement in such groupings think about what they achieve.

As for the second point, my views are mixed. I can see that for the 'top end' swimmer a merger of several local clubs would be a good thing. The overall standard would be increased and the swimmers will inevitably be part of a larger squad. However, for those lower down the scale (of which i was one) i am not so sure - i would have thought that for such swimmers it would be better for tbem to be an important member of a smaller club than a member of the C or D squad of a merged club. For me, i doubt that i would have become involved in coaching if i had been part of such a larger team.

[chris_lamb]

Mac's second point seems to me to be the argument for "Composite Clubs". Most local clubs will have at most a small number of good swimmers. The top swimmers will benefit from having the opporunity to train and compete at a level that a small club cannot hope to offer on its own.

However, a large club covering a fairly large area cannot hope to cater for those swimmers who won't ever be competing at a national level, but do enjoy competitive swimming. IMO, the sport as a whole would lose out if clubs amalgamate to focus on the top swimmers. However, the sport also loses out if the top swimmers are not given the opportunity to fulfill their potential.

Composite Clubs provide the opportunity for clubs to pool resources so that top swimmers can be given the opportunity to train and compete more, while still allowing each club's coach to spend time with the grass roots.

It is important (IMO) to ensure that these clubs give extra opportunties to swimmers, and are not used just to win at the expense of taking the chance to compete from other swimmers.

I tend to agree that to a certain extent composite clubs are a necessary evil, but perhaps they are one that needs some kind of overseeing/regulation.

Someone has already mentioned coLeeds, and I have a feeling that coBirmingham, and it wouldn't suprise me if coCoventry operate in a similar way. Realistically trying to organise a single club for the whole of Birmingham would be utterly rediculous, but then not having a club that represented Birmingham as a whole would seem equally daft.

In football, cricket etc etc etc small teams compete in small leagues, and big ones in big leagues. We have an organisational, and pool time problem with this in swimming it seems. However its also true that the best swimmers seem to come from these amalgamated clubs. If we compared the numbers of swimmers coming through to the top from these clubs with the numbers coming through from the "little" clubs, surely especially when taking total numbers of swimmers being pooled from into consideration, we have to feel that the big clubs are doing a good job from the "elite of the elite" perspective.

I can't see a fair way to resolve this problem... does anyone else have any good ideas?

[BigFish]

Impossible to put into practice and full of other problems too, but composite clubs could be limited by size of the population they service. For example, a composite club could have a catchment area covering an entire county, but if it was a rural area with a low population density that would probably be equivalent to a high density town/city club.

I'm not saying I like the idea, it's just an option that springs to mind.

[jaygee]

In football, cricket etc etc etc small teams compete in small leagues, and big ones in big leagues.

Perhaps that is one of the reasons those type of sports keep their athletes to an older age. As a sport we must cater for the elite and the social competitor.
There seems to be so much emphasis on the higher levels there is not so many social type of competition. Certainly, in my swimming days there were lots of interclub competitions- possibly too much social emphasis, but we made some great friends and travelled to different areas, including abroad!I suppose cost of bus travel and the fight for and cost of pool time has put paid to these Satarday "friendlies"

We must find a way of keeping our "social" competitve swimmers,with more fun galas. They will be the masters swimmers, officials and parents of the future.

However, I do feel the composite clubs are good for the upper end of the sport. Not only for the swimmers but for younger coaches to "cut their teeth". Too often I have seen young coaches in charge of clubs, some literally just out of swimming. Some it must be said are excellent but many have no idea where to start with young swimmers and aim too high.With no guidence it seems it is ultimatly the swimmer that suffers!
These larger clubs have access to coaching expertise ,sports science,medicine etc which must ultimatly help the swimmer .

[Bazza]

Originally posted by ktcute
However its also true that the best swimmers seem to come from these amalgamated clubs.

I disagree - I think what happens is most of the 'best' swimmers end up at these superclubs, possibly because it is here they can enjoy the best facilities and support. That is a different thing. I certainly would not say most of the best swimmers come from the merged clubs. I think if you researched it you would fiond 90% started at smaller clubs and probably spent most of their age group time at one.

Maybe we are getting confused with 'centres of excellence', for example the university squads at Bath and Loughborough. I think these are a good idea, but they are not allowed to compete in speedo league so why should T5 for example?

[Katie]

Would be a bit difficult for loughborough to compete in speedo as they wouldn't have all the age groups, but I can't see any reason why Bath aren't allowed to compete???

Ok, so whichever way you look at it... top swimmers do tend to end up at these amalgamated clubs, for exactly the reason that they do have the funding etc.

It is probably more practical for funding and the "survival" of these talents that they are treated in this way, as superlative talents aren't always catered for very well outside of big clubs, I suspect. Centres of excellence are all very well and good, but they do seem to be for very small numbers of the elite. They exist I suspect to give the best of the best opportunities that don't exist for us in a country where swimming is very much a back seat sport.

It may not be fair, but one thing I have learnt over the years, and from reading a bit about highly succesful athletes is that sport really isn't fair. You have to talented and lucky to be a big success, not to mention extremely dedicated to what you do, and I suspect intrinsically love it.

[Deaks]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ktcute

"Someone has already mentioned coLeeds, and I have a feeling that coBirmingham, and it wouldn't suprise me if coCoventry operate in a similar way. "

Co Coventry are the only competitive club within the boundaries of the city so we are a single club, not a composite. In terms of the Speedo League Birmingham swimmers compete for their home club eg Perry Beeches, Solihull etc.

We do swim swimmers in our team that have for example come to University, but saying that we do have swimmers who come to Uni but still swim for their home club. We also have swimmers who know train 100% with Coventry after moving from a smaller club within the area but then swim for their local club in the Speedo Leagues eg Grace Callaghan still swims for Leamington Spa. This weakens our overall team, especially when it comes to the National Final, but we feel the swimmers should have the choice to give something back to their original club

[Phil Tanner]

But do Bath not take part in the Speedo League because they aren't allowed to, or because they choose not to?

In terms of the Speedo League Birmingham swimmers compete for their home club eg Perry Beeches, Solihull etc.

Duh... Solihull is miles away from Birmingham...! And having lived in the area for 15 years, the difference between the richest and poorest areas of Birmingham would have to mean surely that for some kids representing their local club would mean that they would never get to compete.

So presumably this is all down to choice right? So Birmingham presumably a composite club in which you have the right to choose who you compete for, under dual recognition? Presumably if you swim for Leeds you swim for Leeds then???

[Deaks]

The point I was making was that Birmingham do not swim in the Speedo Leagues, despite them being a composite club. Solihull is a feeder club to the Birmingham programme hence why I included it in my previous post. Jo McGurk (National Age Group medalist) is an example of a swimmer who swims for Solihull in Speedo Leagues & County Champs but trains within the Birmingham set up.

As far as I understand the Birmingham programme you have to keep you ties with your original club. You cannot just be a member of the COBirmingham.

I think this is a good way of future swimmers in smaller club programmes getting to see the top swimmers at that time.

I've just been looking at the coBirmingham web site. You have to be a member of a 'parent' club, and further a member of the cities Advanced Coaching scheme before you can even join the club, which is really a "centre of excellence" all of its own.

Its a shame imo, and a waste. There must be so much young talent that goes to waste simply because we can't get them coaching, or encourage them in the way they need to be encouraged. I did notice however that whilst the swimmers at Brum need to recognise their 'parent' club in local meets, the HAVE TO recognise coB as their club when swimming at National + level. I'm mildly amused by it.

I'm increasingly fed up about the loss of talent in this sport because the parents can't afford or aren't interested in the sport. Phil has mentioned the 'base level' in his posts before, however I wonder how much of a genuine base we have. For all those kids who learn to swim at school they simply aren't going to go on to achieve. And all those swimmers trawling up and down public swimming baths who with a little coaching would be sooo much better. Its such a shame. Its beginning to feel to me like swimming is a "buy a pony" kind of sport. Poor kids, whilst at least in the past, they are attacked for being lazy, you have to think what a terrible disadvantage it is to be born to parents who just aren't interested.

I really think we need some way beyond the "learn to swim" level of encouraging talented youngsters who wouldn't otherwise get a chance, not just providing coaching, but funding and ways of generating interest in the sport.

[swimfizz]

I really think we need some way beyond the "learn to swim" level of encouraging talented youngsters who wouldn't otherwise get a chance, not just providing coaching, but funding and ways of generating interest in the sport.

Hear. Hear!!
There must be so many swimmers out there who never make it past learn to swim due to the cost of Club swimming. It is very much a middle class sport in most areas.
Where club schemes are subsidised by councils this must help break down these barriers.
However, we seem to have the opposite happening where private swim schemes are coming in to many of the larger cities.These although good are expensive and are targeting the middle and upper classes.
In our area a very large percentage of the club swimmers attend private schools.
As a sport we need to look at opening up!