Radioactive Particles found on Beach.

[Dave_G]

I was shocked to read today that "High-activity" radiation was recently found at Dalgety Bay beach in Fife and are "cause for concern", the Scottish Environmental Protection Agency (Sepa) said. The particles were discovered over the weekend by scientists checking the area. Fife Council has cordoned off part of the foreshore, close to the public footpath, and put up warning signs. Radioactive material was first detected on the foreshore of Dalgety Bay in 1990. It is thought that the contamination originates from the residue of radium-coated instrument panels from military aircraft which was incinerated and land-filled in the area at the end of the Second World War. Monitoring has been undertaken by both Sepa and the Ministry of Defence, with radioactive material being periodically removed. Sepa has also taken away the newly discovered radioactive particles for analysis. It has called for an urgent "long-term remediation plan" to deal with this problem. Sepa chief executive Campbell Gemmell said: "Over the weekend our scientists continued to investigate an area of the foreshore of Dalgety Bay and further sources were found. In the short term Sepa will continue the current investigation and ensure the removal of any further sources detected. It is now urgent that an appropriate long-term remediation plan is developed, and Sepa will meet with Scottish Government and the Ministry of Defence to expedite this." Scottish Environment Secretary Richard Lochhead said: "We will continue to press the Ministry of Defence to resolve this matter and, following the most recent survey work at Dalgety Bay, I will be writing to the Secretary of State for Defence today to call for immediate action and that the MoD meets its responsibilities."
I have to say that I am very glad this is not a beach from which I swim or bodyboard!

[Wildswimmer]

You wouldn't like Seascale then. The whole area was contaminated by the notorious 1957 Windscale (aka Sellafield) incident when a graphite moderated pile breeding plutonium for nuclear weapons went up in flames. There are still highly radioactive particles lying around the surrounding area containing plutonium, one of the most dangerous and persistant radioactives known.

Don't forget, Sellafield is still pumping low level waste (so we are assured) into the Irish Sea although Greenpeace have blocked the outfall on several occasions. BNFL's security goons illegally harass anyone seen weilding Geiger counters on the neaby public beaches.

I'm still waiting for an opportunity to go up there with my Geiger counter.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Brick]

What might be interesting is for one person to take a Geiger counter to the public beach, while someone a short distance away has a concealed camera.

I did a quick search on youtube, but nothing doing.

[Wildswimmer]

Just checked details of the rail journey - my fare is just over £31 return but the journey is nearly 3hrs each way so I'll have to think about it.

Wildswimmer Pete

[swimslikeabrick]

I rather suspect that taking a geiger counter around the streets of Aberdeen would be rather scary.

[Wildswimmer]

Originally Posted by swimslikeabrick

I rather suspect that taking a geiger counter around the streets of Aberdeen would be rather scary.

I did a few years ago and only noted a slight increase over the "normal" background count. However my sojurn was limited to an hour or so in the city centre before catching a train and my quick checks were made in the open air. It would be very interesting to go around the more granitey parts of the city, especially inside buildings where there may be tiny accumulations of radon. Maybe next time I end up there.

Wildswimmer Pete

[citroensm]

I think that the dangers of low level radiation are way over stated. LG.

[Brick]

Originally Posted by Wildswimmer

Just checked details of the rail journey - my fare is just over £31 return but the journey is nearly 3hrs each way so I'll have to think about it.

I've just done a two hour trip each way to Cambridge and back. I took a book. Seems to solve the time problem.

(No swimming, just Astronomy at Cambridge University).

[Wildswimmer]

Originally Posted by Brick

Seems to solve the time problem.

It's more a case of the short time I'd have there before having to return. Not forgetting, of course, the lack of daylight hours that will be more acute in a fortnight's time when the clocks go back.

Wildswimmer Pete

[Dave_G]

Originally Posted by Wildswimmer

You wouldn't like Seascale then. The whole area was contaminated by the notorious 1957 Windscale (aka Sellafield) incident when a graphite moderated pile breeding plutonium for nuclear weapons went up in flames. There are still highly radioactive particles lying around the surrounding area containing plutonium, one of the most dangerous and persistant radioactives known.Wildswimmer Pete

No I wouldn't, and to be quite honest, I'm rather suspicious of Blackpool, Morecombe, and anywhere above Wales for the same reasons.

Originally Posted by Wildswimmer;255316Don't forget, Sellafield is still pumping low level waste (so we are assured) into the Irish Sea although Greenpeace have blocked the outfall on several occasions. BNFL's security goons illegally harass anyone seen weilding Geiger counters on the neaby [B

public[/B] beaches.
I'm still waiting for an opportunity to go up there with my Geiger counter.
Wildswimmer Pete

Surely the authorities and BNFL haven't anything to hide? And well done Greenpeace!

[paul_b]

Good luck hunting for either plutonium or radon with a geiger counter.....

What's a "security goon?" I've been around that area enough and never noticed one, though it's possible to see the Civil Nuclear Constabulary on patrol.

And are you sure the beaches are public?

Cheers,

Paul...

[Wildswimmer]

Originally Posted by paul_b

Good luck hunting for either plutonium or radon with a geiger counter.....

I've got an old documentary on tape from about 20 years ago which not only describes the incident but also uses old newsreel films which I actually remember from the time itself. The programme also shows one Seascale resident using his geiger counter to illustrate radioactive particles in his own property. Given the pile was being used to produce plutonium, and during the fire a strong air blast was used to try to cool the pile, and the filters at the top of the stack had failed, it's pretty obvious that plutonium would have escaped from the burning (and in many cases melted) fuel elements. Furthermore at the time the Meter Contamination No.1 was issued to civilian authorities involved with the subsequent clean-up - this is a standard Geiger counter. I've actually got one, although nowadays I use my two modern Russion-made instruments. Pu decays to produce gamma radiation and neutrons, both of which will register on a standard Geiger.

Bear in mind that some radiation detectors use ionisation chambers intended to warn of dangerous levels of radiation after a nuclear explosion. Although often sold as "geiger counters" these are very insensitive and unsuitable for survey work. My instruments are genuine geiger counters.

Regarding radon, I've never had to test for radon but although it's a gas it's also dense and collects so I can't see any problem. Although the decay products are alpha and beta particles if these are sufficiently energetic an ordinary geiger tube will register them as a qualitative test. I do have an old ex-military Cold War instrument with a dedicated alpha detector so perhaps I should try pressing that into service - it just needs a special (unobtainable) battery. It should be borne in mind that most assume standard Geigers won't detect alpha and beta radiation, just gamma (and in the case of my twin-tube instruments, x-rays). This is a fallacy. High energy alpha and beta are sufficiently penetrating. I've got an alpha source that drives my Gieger's needle off the scale.

Originally Posted by paul_b

What's a "security goon?" I've been around that area enough and never noticed one, though it's possible to see the Civil Nuclear Constabulary on patrol.

There have been numerous instances where anyone on the beach seen using a geiger counter has been harassed to the extent of physical threats by individuals acting on behalf of BNFL (or whatever the Sellafield operators call themselves now). I put it down to Sellafield being concerned they may be Greenpeace who have on several occasions successfully blocked the sea outfall for low-level waste. According to my contacts this behaviour still continues. No establishment has any power to remove nor otherwise harass anybody outside its perimeter.

Originally Posted by paul_b

And are you sure the beaches are public?

Irrespective of ownership there is a public right of access to all UK beaches. Furthermore the area between mean high and low tide limits is Crown property - ie public.

Wildswimmer Pete

[paul_b]

Indeed, I saw that film too, and the material he detected was uranium nitrate. That's not to say there won't be plutonium there too, but you are unlikely to detect it with any form of geiger counter in the outdoor environment. Even the energetic alpha particles emitted by man made isotopes have a range of only a very few centimetres in air. If you've got such a source on the lab bench, yes, a thin end window detector will pick it up, but your chances of doing so on a beach are much reduced. Incidentally, there only difference between an X-ray and a gamma ray is how it's produced - after that they're just photons moving at the speed of light, so it's no surprise that your counter detects both..... Bearing in mind the other isotopes which are going to be present in a reactor accident's fall out, such as caesium 137 and iodine 131, then a geiger is fine, though I'd probably prefer a solid state device....

As for radon, I wrote my MSc thesis on that, and you really don't go looking for it with a geiger counter. In the sort of concentrations you generally find above ground, passive counting systems are used, and generally have to be left in place for several months (I've got some radon detectors here at the moment, they've nearly had 3 months of exposure, and will be off for reading soon).
I do believe that BNFL (now defunct) did recognise people's rights to protest against its activities, so it seems odd that you suggest people would be harassed for walking aroudn on the beach. It hasn't happened to you? Only to people you know who want you to think it did? I'm sure they'd have no reason for wanting to do that..... On those occasions I was in the vicinity of the site and even on the beach, I was not aware of anyone being harassed though I didn't have a geiger counter on me and wasn't trying to block a pipe either.

I did ask if you were sure the beach was public, not for a generalisation on other beaches.

Really I visit this site as I'm interested in swimming.....

Paul.

[Dave_G]

Originally Posted by Wildswimmer

There have been numerous instances where anyone on the beach seen using a geiger counter has been harassed to the extent of physical threats by individuals acting on behalf of BNFL (or whatever the Sellafield operators call themselves now). I put it down to Sellafield being concerned they may be Greenpeace who have on several occasions successfully blocked the sea outfall for low-level waste. According to my contacts this behaviour still continues. No establishment has any power to remove nor otherwise harass anybody outside its perimeter.

Irrespective of ownership there is a public right of access to all UK beaches. Furthermore the area between mean high and low tide limits is Crown property - ie public.
Wildswimmer Pete

In any case, there is no excuse nor justification to use threats against people. Such action is a criminal offence.

[Wildswimmer]

Originally Posted by paul_b

Indeed, I saw that film too, and the material he detected was uranium nitrate. That's not to say there won't be plutonium there too, but you are unlikely to detect it with any form of geiger counter in the outdoor environment. Even the energetic alpha particles emitted by man made isotopes have a range of only a very few centimetres in air. If you've got such a source on the lab bench, yes, a thin end window detector will pick it up, but your chances of doing so on a beach are much reduced.

Well, a lot of the official survey work I've been involved in has been on beaches (Wirral, not Cumbria) and the issued equipment has been a geiger counter, albeit usually a very expensive one - the taxpayers' pot is of course bottomless. Surely those who specified the conditions under which the measurements were made and the equipment used knew what they were doing? Although I don't use my own ex-MOD instruments (they are basically collector's pieces, although fully functional) as far as I know the tubes are of the mica-window variety. Furthermore one of them is an example of the instrument specifically issued at the time of the Windscale accident.

Originally Posted by paul_b

Incidentally, there only difference between an X-ray and a gamma ray is how it's produced - after that they're just photons moving at the speed of light, so it's no surprise that your counter detects both.....

I'm aware that x-rays have lower energy than gamma, but why do the Russian makers of my everyday instruments go to the expense of fitting extra tubes for measurement of X-rays? Given the GM tubes are the most expensive components?

Originally Posted by paul_b

Bearing in mind the other isotopes which are going to be present in a reactor accident's fall out, such as caesium 137 and iodine 131, then a geiger is fine, though I'd probably prefer a solid state device....

Many of the isotopes released had, like I-131, short half-lives and will have decayed to insignificant amounts. Cs-137 has a half-life of around 30 years so will have decayed significantly by now, Pu and U will persist for thousands of years.

As for solid-state sensors, I don't have access to the financial resources of a university and have to manage with what I can afford. I also have a general dislike of anything solid-state. I much prefer glass and vacuum.

Originally Posted by paul_b

As for radon, I wrote my MSc thesis on that, and you really don't go looking for it with a geiger counter. In the sort of concentrations you generally find above ground, passive counting systems are used, and generally have to be left in place for several months (I've got some radon detectors here at the moment, they've nearly had 3 months of exposure, and will be off for reading soon).

As I pointed out, I've never been involved with radon. It's been measurement of the sort of radioisotopes mentioned previously.

Originally Posted by paul_b

I do believe that BNFL (now defunct) did recognise people's rights to protest against its activities, so it seems odd that you suggest people would be harassed for walking aroudn on the beach.

I'm going on reliable information that I've been given, and not just recently.

Originally Posted by paul_b

It hasn't happened to you?

Of course not - I've never been there. I have always wanted to vist the area to see for myself.

Originally Posted by paul_b

Only to people you know who want you to think it did? I'm sure they'd have no reason for wanting to do that.....

Rather patronising. You don't know with whom I'm in contact.

Originally Posted by paul_b

On those occasions I was in the vicinity of the site and even on the beach, I was not aware of anyone being harassed though I didn't have a geiger counter on me and wasn't trying to block a pipe either.

The persons subjected to the harassment weren't trying to block a pipe either. They were walking along a public beach and just happened to be carrying a piece of measuring equipment.

Originally Posted by paul_b

I did ask if you were sure the beach was public, not for a generalisation on other beaches.

Que?

Originally Posted by Wildswimmer

Irrespective of ownership there is a public right of access to all UK beaches.

.............by definition that must include Seascale.

Originally Posted by paul_b

Really I visit this site as I'm interested in swimming.....

Well I'm sure sea bathers are concerned over radioactive pollution of the Irish Sea? Bear in mind that the Irish Sea behaves more like a lake, due to the peculiarity of tidal flows it takes some 60 years for its waters to be completely exchanged with the Atlantic. Could be why Dublin want Sellafield closed down, and if I remember correctly so do the IOM. For what its worth there are currently no signs of any untoward radioactivity around the Wirral coast.

Edit: The other member of my survey team wants to watch the Windscale programme again so I'll dig out my VHS recording of it and watch it again with him. That'll refresh my memory.

Wildswimmer Pete