Positives & Negatives of the London 2012 Olympics...So Far !!

[Breaststrokemum]

It is utterly disgraceful that there were any, let alone so many, empty seats this morning.

[noeyedear]

Originally Posted by johnhy

Totally agree - but its the empty seats in the higher parts thats more upsetting

Did anyone else think Ryan Lochte should have been taken out in the 400IM - breaststroke turn he definitely hadn't started the arm stroke (there'd been no movement of the hands) before his fly kick.

Seems that a lot of breaststrokers do this now, is it just really hard to see or is there a bit of relaxation in the interpretation of the rules ? My boy said that if you turn your hands out then the out sweep has been initiated, I'll have to go back and look at the recording.

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by johnhy

Did anyone else think Ryan Lochte should have been taken out in the 400IM - breaststroke turn he definitely hadn't started the arm stroke (there'd been no movement of the hands) before his fly kick.

I looked at that several times (I want instant rewind on poolside, much easier to judge ) and I'm not entirely certain that his hands hadn't started moving.

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by noeyedear

Seems that a lot of breaststrokers do this now, is it just really hard to see or is there a bit of relaxation in the interpretation of the rules ? My boy said that if you turn your hands out then the out sweep has been initiated, I'll have to go back and look at the recording.

The interpretation of the rules on the FINA website may be helpful.

[Laugh Out Loud]

Originally Posted by Breaststrokemum

It is utterly disgraceful that there were any, let alone so many, empty seats this morning.

i so agree there were at least 12 near me right beside me and a few rows in front maybe no one wanted to sit beside me! Why not have a standby line and fill up 10 mins before it starts. people should be there early. WHY do people get up before end and worse for food and drink its only just over 2 hrs!!!
AND in the middle of races. Wonderful swims specially Hannah well done!

[Bully]

Originally Posted by oswim

WHY do people get up before end and worse for food and drink its only just over 2 hrs!!! AND in the middle of races.

Do they have a burger van outside?

[johnhy]

Originally Posted by chris_lamb

I looked at that several times (I want instant rewind on poolside, much easier to judge ) and I'm not entirely certain that his hands hadn't started moving.

The underwater shot of the back to breast turn looked dubious to say the least so we (my daughter and I) waited for the next turn to see what happened and we were both clear there was no hand movement before the fly kick started.

[chris_lamb]

Originally Posted by johnhy

The underwater shot of the back to breast turn looked dubious to say the least so we (my daughter and I) waited for the next turn to see what happened and we were both clear there was no hand movement before the fly kick started.

I've just watched it back again frame by frame. At the same point his feet start to move down his hands start to move. Remember the hand movement doesn't have to be before the fly kick, just that the fly kick can't be before the hand movement.

[chris_lamb]

To come back to the negatives: empty seats. There are far too many empty seats at pretty much every event. Considering the demand for tickets LOCOG and the government should be ashamed that there are empty seats. Someone needs to take responsibility for the embarrassment of presenting empty stadia when there has been such high demand for tickets.

[Bek]

Originally Posted by chris_lamb

I've just watched it back again frame by frame. At the same point his feet start to move down his hands start to move. Remember the hand movement doesn't have to be before the fly kick, just that the fly kick can't be before the hand movement.

I noticed this too and presumed swimmers were being given the benefit of the doubt as it is hard in real time to discern exactly if the hands have started to move before the fly kick is introduced. I mean I've turn judged this one and it is difficult to see as a swimmer is moving away from you - so you see the legs well but not necessarily have good sight of the hand movement. Also, I'm not sure I understand Chris's comment that "the hand movement doesn't have to be before the fly kick." If the rule says a single butterfly kick is permitted during the first arm stroke doesn’t that mean the hand movement has to have started? Here's what Jane Davies on behalf of the BS Officials Group mailed to officials in January 2012:

“"SW 7.1 After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke completely back to the legs during which the swimmer may be submerged. A single butterfly kick is permitted during the first arm stroke, followed by a breaststroke kick.
1. A swimmer does not have to perform a butterfly kick
2. There can only be one butterfly kick.
3. The butterfly kick must take place during the first arm stroke.
4. The butterfly kick must be followed by a breaststroke kick
From this information we can see that the swimmer may perform a butterfly kick at any time from the point that the hands move, from the streamline position after the start or turn, outwards and or backwards all the way to the point at which the hands are “completely back to the legs”. (SW7.1.)" ”

Rule interpretation is tricky, No? Perhaps there will be a rule alteration on this one following the Olympics?

[Linny]

I think what Chris was referring to was the way one judges it.

It is impossible to view both hands and legs at the same time as you rightly point out so as I understand it, as the swimmer enters the water or leaves the wall you look at the body alignment and then at the hand position; you then look at the legs. When the permitted dolphin kick starts you then look back at the hands. If the hands haven't moved from the position they were in when you looked at them earlier you report it, if they have you don't because the arm pull has started.

In reality, the arm pull may not have REALLY started but the movement of the hands (even if it is simply them having left the 'hands on' streamlined position) is the only real indication that you have as a judge and the swimmer gets the benefit. The hands and legg mobements may have actually started at the same time but you can only watch one thing at a time and one thing is for sure is that if you judge in this way the kick did not start before the hands moved which is as it should be.

There was a lot of debate about this last year and early this year with guidance to suggest that if there was a break in the pull during when the kick took place this was an infringement. This has now been clarified by the highest authorities and it is not.

Caveat to above is that judges are actually looking for more than this and some swimmers don't do what you would expect and so may not always be looking for or at this sequence - eg many of the 400 IM swimmers did not use a permitted dolphin kick at all yesterday.

What is more, it is and always was, a stupid rule in my opinion.

[chris_lamb]

What I meant was that from the moment the hands start to move the leg kick can begin. So if they both happen at the same time you're fine.

But the important point is that the judge has to be 100% certain a rule has been infringed to make a report. If it's hard to tell with the benefit of a slow motion replay then what chance does a judge have seeing it once in real time through the moving water surface with bright lights shining down?

[Bully]

You guys are talking about a fraction of a second, can anyone please tell me what would a swimmer gain if he kicked 0.05sec before his hands moved?
I thought this rule was only introduced due to the body naturally undulating during the arm pull, which was the swimmers reasoning for the dolphin kick in the first place.

[eastlondonswim]

NEGATIVE - Picking Simon Burnett. Worst relay leg in living memory. Had been off the boil for 5 years at least. Time to retire.

[Breaststrokemum]

Originally Posted by eastlondonswim

NEGATIVE - Picking Simon Burnett. Worst relay leg in living memory. Had been off the boil for 5 years at least. Time to retire.

And 'resting' Adam Brown!!!!!!!!!????????????? You'd think they'd have learned their lesson after the women's 4 x 200m in Beijing! (Not that in this case it would have made any difference!)