training muscle groups

lincoln · 01-02-2002, 12:15 PM

Bearing in mind the golden rule used with other forms of training, i.e. you shouldn't train the same muscle groups two days in a row, is it safe for young age group swimmers (or anyone for that matter?) to swim a set late one evening, then swim again early the next morning? Surely in swimming you can't avoid using the same muscle groups each time?

lane4 · 01-02-2002, 02:02 PM

Its very safe indeed.

lincoln · 01-02-2002, 09:47 PM

Can you explain why it's safe in swimming but not in other activities?

swimfizz · 01-02-2002, 09:47 PM

I feel as we are expecting more milage out of our younger swimmers we must take care to ease the strain on their bodies as much as possible. Sensible precautions must be taken such as changing the Main Sets from one session to the next so emphysis is put onto a different muscle group
eg. if the evening session involves a lot of frontcrawl pull ,change the morning to back, IM's or kick.
I am encoutering more injuries with young age group swimmers (10 - 13 years) than ever before. Most are not serious but if allowed to develop could affect their swimming careers.

lincoln · 01-02-2002, 10:38 PM

Thanks - that's what I'm worried about! How do we ensure our age groupers get the pool time we are told they need without putting too much strain on their developing bodies? Does anybody reading this think they have got the balance right and if so, would they like to share their programme?

Pete · 01-02-2002, 11:49 PM

The main problem areas are shoulders and knees. Over rotations in one direction swimming freestyle and fly means that the joints are used in one direction only. Interspersing backstroke into the the long freestye sets puts the swimmer less at risk. I put 200 loose backstroke onto every long freestyle set at the middle and end. Ensuring rotation in the opposite direction, helping avoid repetitive strain injury.
Breaststrokers swim, kicking dolphin kick (with or without fins) to take the strain out of the knee area when doing long breaststroke sets.

I also try to alternate freestyle and IM as main sets in my sessions. It also keeps the swimmers happy with less repetition; therefore less boredom factor.

lane4 · 02-02-2002, 08:03 PM

I tried it, did 25m in 22.8 seconds. Is that any good?

Steve · 03-02-2002, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lincoln
Can you explain why it's safe in swimming but not in other activities?

Getting back to the point

I think that there's an important distinction to be made between muscle building work and cardio vascular exercise. In weight training for example I would agree that you shouldn't train the same muscle groups two days running, but this is becasue you are actually 'damaging' the muscle (tearing the fibres - hence the stiffness that can be associated with weight training) and you need to allow them to recover before repeating the trianing. In cardio training, like swimming, it isn't so critical because you are training the muscle (and heart and lungs) to work more efficiently under different loads. Of course all of the comments made are very sensible for injury prevention, but there is no reason why you shouldn't swim two sessions so close together.

I'm sure someone who knows more about this might point out a flaw in this, but it's what I was always taught

Bazza · 03-02-2002, 11:52 AM

Yeah, I believe that to be accurate Steve.

At the end of the day, Lenny Krayzelburg used to train for 4-5 hours a day, even when he was young. I know it's a very extreme example, but I don't believe he would have used different muscle groups every time. That would have meant one session on each stroke

It hasn't appeared to do him any harm either!

mammamedley · 03-02-2002, 03:49 PM

Soap Box!!!

Here goes! Lovely Lenny got me thinking!

Injuries I have experienced from swimming have been the shoulder and knee. However, injuries I have experienced from badly managed land work are too many to mention. Most injuries to swimmers originate from land conditioning or the lack of knowledge of how to prepare the body for the 'overload' in the pool.
On land! I have seen so many land training sessions that have made me cringe! I have even been present at an ASA Club Coaches Land training session that made me cringe! Coaches should also be aware of what land based work the children are experiencing at school. How does that fit in with not training the same muscle groups two days in a row? How many of the exercises swimmers are asked to do are NOT recomended by Physios etc.? Are our swimmers told not to increase work load until the exercise is comfortable and then increase only by 10 percent?
As each swimmer in the team is such an individual how can coaches set a large pull set with paddles or breast kick set and expect that ALL those swimmers' shoulders or knees would cope? All programes ideally should be individual to that swimmer. As above - the overload should only increase by 10 percent.

Only today I was at a pool and a well known team of swimmers were waiting in the entrance for 20 minutes before their session in the pool. Not only were they quiet and subdued but none were preparing for their session. They just sat there, waiting! With pool time so precious, and some sessions only an hour - forget the 20 minute swim warm-up, and get hot and stretch on poolside for 20 minutes prior to session, and build into session straight away.
Swimmers would also cope better with muscle overload if they stretched after working out too! When do we see that? I don't! Tell a lie - I did once! Portsmouth Northsea session at Aldershot!
Are their 10-13 year olds coping with muscle overload two days in a row?
I think it is perfectly reasonable to swim two sessions 'back to back' so long as swimmers are prepared in a professional manner any overloading on the muscles is carefully adjusted for each individual swimmer.
I know myself, I can't manage a 'back to back' session right now - but I will get there eventually! As for land training - learnt my lesson the hard way - never again!

How was the spelling????!!!!

Julia · 03-02-2002, 06:38 PM

Warning Children are children and not miniture adults. Therefore they must be coached in that way, and not to an adult programme. I know of one parent of a 12 year old who is thinking of suing the coach (ASA senior Coach) for the damage incurred from repeated over training. He had promise at a high level, but now must rest for at least 12 months.

swimfizz · 03-02-2002, 07:40 PM

]

Quote:

In cardio training, like swimming....

With my coaches "hat "on I can see where you are coming from as Cardiac fitness in most cases, probably wins the race.

However with my physio " hat" on I have to question this. Swimming to your potential relies equally on muscle and cardio vascular fitness. ie
CV fitness without muscle strength = muscle fatique as the fibres are unable to move fast enough = injury
Muscle fitness and lack of CV finess = muscles do not get enough oxygen = muscle fatigue (injury?)
(Apologies to the sports scientists- this is very over simplified.)
With growing age groupers, more than older swimmers I think we have got to get it right ..
I totally agree with Mammamedley regarding swimmers and exercise. It is important it is done and done correctly!!

Quote:

I think it is perfectly reasonable to swim two sessions 'back to back' so long as swimmers are prepared in a professional manner any overloading on the muscles is carefully adjusted for each individual swimmer.

I am slightly concerned at the emphasis given to the amount of distance expected of age groupers
Looking at swimmers at the last few meets I attended it was interesting to see the finalists in the middle age groups all mainly of a similar type and build - small to middle height and well developed for their age.Is this because they are the ones who can cope best with this sort of training? The long lankey ones tended to be more in evidence in the older ages. Are we losing the tall ones to injury,lack of motivation, problems with the (type of) training, or are they waiting in the wings to appear in the future .Any thoughts!!?

lane4 · 03-02-2002, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Julia
Warning I know of one parent of a 12 year old who is thinking of suing the coach (ASA senior Coach) for the damage incurred from repeated over training. He had promise at a high level, but now must rest for at least 12 months.

What damage has arisen (specifically) from the training programme?
How will it be proved that this damage was actually from the training programme?
What exactly is "repeated over training"?
How does one measure what is overtraining and what is not?
What exactly does "promise at a high level" mean and how would such promise be proven?

So many questions, so few answers.

mammamedley · 04-02-2002, 11:59 AM

Soap Box again!!!

Children may not be minature adults however they can be given the respect that an adult swimmer demands. I know one local coach who admitts that they do not like coaching masters as they are so demanding!! Adult swimmers can not be manipulated like age groupers!!
As for the Senior Coach who may be 'in trouble', he or she needs to learn the hard way and cover themselves 100 times over!
Had that coach spent the time to sit down with swimmer and parent pointing out acheivable goals and going through in detail the programe to acheive the goals, with all the demands of ASAs 'Bill Sweetybum', it would have given the child and parent a clear vision of what to expect. Communication is open between coach, swimmer and parent giving the opportunity to discuss any weaknesses that need to be overcome in the preparation of the programe. There should also be a report written from this meeting and swimmer, parent and coach sign. This gives the swimmer an amazing 'sense of purpose' towards their training what ever age. It makes them more responsible for their training giving them them more satisfaction, self-esteem and confidence. This also gives the parent an understanding in what their child requires to do to get their goal and also the feeling that the coach is approachable as the workload increases, checking to see the swimmer is not stressed beyond reasonable levels. Too many parents just drop and go scared of being labelled 'pushy' if they are watching or supporting.
I have a 13 yr old 6 ft tall daughter who should have been a swimmer but chose ballet! She now puts her size 10 feet into point shoes! Her toes are sometimes so sore however the communication between teachers, pupil and myself as a parent is such that I trust and support the programe she is working towards. Her body was prepared before she was allowed to go onto point - her shoes are regularly checked for weaknesses. Her programe towards her exams is clear and precise! She knows exactly where she is going and how she is going to get there! I do not have to wake her up to get out of bed for her ballet lesson. She wakes me up!

lincoln · 04-02-2002, 06:57 PM

Good advice, which I thoroughly agree with. I only wish our other coaches were reading this (maybe they are!). But reading is one thing - action is what matters!

01-02-2002, 12:15 PM	#1
lincoln Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK Posts: 29	training muscle groups Bearing in mind the golden rule used with other forms of training, i.e. you shouldn't train the same muscle groups two days in a row, is it safe for young age group swimmers (or anyone for that matter?) to swim a set late one evening, then swim again early the next morning? Surely in swimming you can't avoid using the same muscle groups each time?

01-02-2002, 11:49 PM	#6
Pete Established Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Surrey UK Posts: 2,050	The main problem areas are shoulders and knees. Over rotations in one direction swimming freestyle and fly means that the joints are used in one direction only. Interspersing backstroke into the the long freestye sets puts the swimmer less at risk. I put 200 loose backstroke onto every long freestyle set at the middle and end. Ensuring rotation in the opposite direction, helping avoid repetitive strain injury. Breaststrokers swim, kicking dolphin kick (with or without fins) to take the strain out of the knee area when doing long breaststroke sets. I also try to alternate freestyle and IM as main sets in my sessions. It also keeps the swimmers happy with less repetition; therefore less boredom factor. __________________ My Website! Pete Baldrey Photography Retired from Swimming activity:

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01-02-2002, 02:02 PM	#2
lane4 Jedi Master Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Scotland Posts: 3,501	Its very safe indeed.

01-02-2002, 09:47 PM	#3
lincoln Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK Posts: 29	Can you explain why it's safe in swimming but not in other activities?

01-02-2002, 09:47 PM	#4
swimfizz Registered User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	I feel as we are expecting more milage out of our younger swimmers we must take care to ease the strain on their bodies as much as possible. Sensible precautions must be taken such as changing the Main Sets from one session to the next so emphysis is put onto a different muscle group eg. if the evening session involves a lot of frontcrawl pull ,change the morning to back, IM's or kick. I am encoutering more injuries with young age group swimmers (10 - 13 years) than ever before. Most are not serious but if allowed to develop could affect their swimming careers.

01-02-2002, 10:38 PM	#5
lincoln Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK Posts: 29	Thanks - that's what I'm worried about! How do we ensure our age groupers get the pool time we are told they need without putting too much strain on their developing bodies? Does anybody reading this think they have got the balance right and if so, would they like to share their programme?

02-02-2002, 08:03 PM	#7
lane4 Jedi Master Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Scotland Posts: 3,501	I tried it, did 25m in 22.8 seconds. Is that any good?

03-02-2002, 11:52 AM	#9
Bazza Less is more! Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 2,712	Yeah, I believe that to be accurate Steve. At the end of the day, Lenny Krayzelburg used to train for 4-5 hours a day, even when he was young. I know it's a very extreme example, but I don't believe he would have used different muscle groups every time. That would have meant one session on each stroke It hasn't appeared to do him any harm either!

03-02-2002, 03:49 PM	#10
mammamedley technique with floatation Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Noosa, QLD, Australia - yipppee! Posts: 583	Soap Box!!! Here goes! Lovely Lenny got me thinking! Injuries I have experienced from swimming have been the shoulder and knee. However, injuries I have experienced from badly managed land work are too many to mention. Most injuries to swimmers originate from land conditioning or the lack of knowledge of how to prepare the body for the 'overload' in the pool. On land! I have seen so many land training sessions that have made me cringe! I have even been present at an ASA Club Coaches Land training session that made me cringe! Coaches should also be aware of what land based work the children are experiencing at school. How does that fit in with not training the same muscle groups two days in a row? How many of the exercises swimmers are asked to do are NOT recomended by Physios etc.? Are our swimmers told not to increase work load until the exercise is comfortable and then increase only by 10 percent? As each swimmer in the team is such an individual how can coaches set a large pull set with paddles or breast kick set and expect that ALL those swimmers' shoulders or knees would cope? All programes ideally should be individual to that swimmer. As above - the overload should only increase by 10 percent. Only today I was at a pool and a well known team of swimmers were waiting in the entrance for 20 minutes before their session in the pool. Not only were they quiet and subdued but none were preparing for their session. They just sat there, waiting! With pool time so precious, and some sessions only an hour - forget the 20 minute swim warm-up, and get hot and stretch on poolside for 20 minutes prior to session, and build into session straight away. Swimmers would also cope better with muscle overload if they stretched after working out too! When do we see that? I don't! Tell a lie - I did once! Portsmouth Northsea session at Aldershot! Are their 10-13 year olds coping with muscle overload two days in a row? I think it is perfectly reasonable to swim two sessions 'back to back' so long as swimmers are prepared in a professional manner any overloading on the muscles is carefully adjusted for each individual swimmer. I know myself, I can't manage a 'back to back' session right now - but I will get there eventually! As for land training - learnt my lesson the hard way - never again! How was the spelling????!!!!

03-02-2002, 06:38 PM	#11
Julia Mature Youngster Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Eastleigh, Hampshire Posts: 266	Warning Children are children and not miniture adults. Therefore they must be coached in that way, and not to an adult programme. I know of one parent of a 12 year old who is thinking of suing the coach (ASA senior Coach) for the damage incurred from repeated over training. He had promise at a high level, but now must rest for at least 12 months.

04-02-2002, 11:59 AM	#14
mammamedley technique with floatation Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Noosa, QLD, Australia - yipppee! Posts: 583	Soap Box again!!! Children may not be minature adults however they can be given the respect that an adult swimmer demands. I know one local coach who admitts that they do not like coaching masters as they are so demanding!! Adult swimmers can not be manipulated like age groupers!! As for the Senior Coach who may be 'in trouble', he or she needs to learn the hard way and cover themselves 100 times over! Had that coach spent the time to sit down with swimmer and parent pointing out acheivable goals and going through in detail the programe to acheive the goals, with all the demands of ASAs 'Bill Sweetybum', it would have given the child and parent a clear vision of what to expect. Communication is open between coach, swimmer and parent giving the opportunity to discuss any weaknesses that need to be overcome in the preparation of the programe. There should also be a report written from this meeting and swimmer, parent and coach sign. This gives the swimmer an amazing 'sense of purpose' towards their training what ever age. It makes them more responsible for their training giving them them more satisfaction, self-esteem and confidence. This also gives the parent an understanding in what their child requires to do to get their goal and also the feeling that the coach is approachable as the workload increases, checking to see the swimmer is not stressed beyond reasonable levels. Too many parents just drop and go scared of being labelled 'pushy' if they are watching or supporting. I have a 13 yr old 6 ft tall daughter who should have been a swimmer but chose ballet! She now puts her size 10 feet into point shoes! Her toes are sometimes so sore however the communication between teachers, pupil and myself as a parent is such that I trust and support the programe she is working towards. Her body was prepared before she was allowed to go onto point - her shoes are regularly checked for weaknesses. Her programe towards her exams is clear and precise! She knows exactly where she is going and how she is going to get there! I do not have to wake her up to get out of bed for her ballet lesson. She wakes me up!

04-02-2002, 06:57 PM	#15
lincoln Registered User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: UK Posts: 29	Good advice, which I thoroughly agree with. I only wish our other coaches were reading this (maybe they are!). But reading is one thing - action is what matters!

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